MovieChat Forums > The Illusionist (2006) Discussion > English Accents???

English Accents???

posted 17 years ago by nuclearheadache
47 replies | jump to latest

Note:I posted the following as a reply in a thread, but it was buried among 4 other pages of replies, and I wanted to hear hear what other people thought about the persistent use of English accents in almost all historical epics, especially ones that aren't even remotely set in England.

Anyway, here was the reply:

".....Apparently someone in Hollywood thinks that the ancient Greeks, the Russians during WWII, and the French of the 19th century all spoke with very formal English accents. This list could go on and on, of course. It's insulting to the audience. It's as if they think we can't handle hearing everyone speak in Austrian accents. It's seems like Giamanti started out with an Austrian accent and then dropped it halfway through the movie. I was trying to listen closely. I sometimes wonder if this phenomenon is due to a certain Shakespearean tradition that the semi-poetic dialougue in these epics sounds better with that Spakespearean English accent. That's very dumb reasoning, of course. If the dialougue is good it doen't matter what accent it's delivered in. And if it's bad, an English accent certainly isn't going to help anything. I remember when K-19 THE WIDOWMAKER came out, people complained about the Russian accents. Well, at least they were real RUSSIAN accents. That just goes to show you how stupid people can be. 'Please, keep giving us the same watered down retarded crap that you always. We want to sleep at the movie. We don't to be entertained by something fresh or different or have our thoughts provoked.' Uggghhhhh."

[–] pgrass13 17 years ago

yea this bugged me too as I think was set in Austria or Gemrnay. I had the same problem with 300 Greeks with Scottish Accents.

Same thing we do every night try to take over the world

[–] fleischwolf 16 years ago

well, better than an american accent. England is at least part of europe. why would people in an ancient drama speak with an american accent, when this country hasn't even been discovered for centuries!

--
Thank you Ireland
R.I.P. EU

[–] dragon_x 16 years ago

Actually I do not understand any of the criticism - unless the access is inconsistent for no particular reason...

In many American movies - the bad guys often talk with an English accent, yet I think the Empire (from Star Wars) probably spoke something completely different.

For historical drama or even docudrama .. I do not think it makes a big difference either ... since well if its Russian's they probably should be speaking English - IF the audience is going to be english speaking. OR - MAYBE - they could do dubs or subtitles, however sometimes that can take away from the movie - depending...

I'm sure even when they do speak in the language they would normally be speaking (ie english, spanish, german, mandarine, cantoneese, etc...) they probably muck it up. I do know people from England that can typically spot regional accents, but it really comes down to nitpicking... and picking nits. As long as the story is good, well done, mostly believable (if its supposed to be serious ...) and few plot holes (though I'm sure some of those may be intentional)... poor accents, wrong accents and/or incorrect language should not take away from the movie.

Its really no big deal Romans have british accents ... or say american or german - ... but then the Germanic tribes fought (and occasionally won) vs. Roman troops ... where as the English - are somewhat descendent from the Romans ... also - you have to admin - English as a language is fairly popular - or at least fairly common. Hence many movies have people speaking some form of English.

I've always thought it odd that people criticize this when there are usually many more important things to criticize.

[–] fleischwolf 16 years ago

actually the english are descendants of the germanic tribes. the angles and the saxons. they invaded britain after the romans had left!

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Thank you Ireland
R.I.P. EU

[–] puirt-a-beul 16 years ago

actually the english are descendants of the germanic tribes. the angles and the saxons. they invaded britain after the romans had left!

Not to mention also being descendants of the two different Celtic cultures who overran Britain prior to the Romans; plus the original Britons -- whose culture is completely unknown -- who were there when the Celts arrived; plus the Norse who ran a whole series of invasions from the mid-6th century onwards; plus the Normans who invaded in 1066 and became the ruling class for a fair while.

You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

[–] fleischwolf 16 years ago

the celtic tribes that ran over the north of britain where the scots and the picts. but they aren't the forebears of the english. the norse and normans where of germanic descent themselves, so how does this contradict my claims?

--
Thank you Ireland
R.I.P. EU

[–] puirt-a-beul 16 years ago

the celtic tribes that ran over the north of britain where the scots and the picts. but they aren't the forebears of the english. the norse and normans whereof germanic descent themselves, so how does this contradict my claims?

Not contradicting, just adding to.

There were two different Celtic cultures that moved up through the main body of Britain at two different times -- I wasn't just referring to those in Scotland and the border lands. (There's a lot of evidence showing the Picts throughout southern Britain and Ireland as well, so they weren't just a Scottish phenomenon, even though that's the area they're most associated with in most people's understanding.) The Celts had a great deal of influence right throughout what is now called England, as evidenced by Brythonic Celtic root words in the names of towns and geographical features throughout the whole island, not just Wales and Cornwall.

The Norse and the Normans were of Germanic descent, I agree, though somewhat different culturally and linguistically from the Angles and Saxons, which were the two Germanic tribes you specified. By the time the Normans invaded Britain, they and the resident Anglo-Saxons were worlds apart, and each had their own considerable part to play in the development of the language.

My comments were just conversation, fleischwolf, not a challenge for territory.

You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

[–] fleischwolf 16 years ago

no problem. of course you're right that the brythonic presence in britain predates the germanic conquest of what is now england. the way i read it you claimed that the english where not of germanic descent because of the norse and norman invasion.

--
Thank you Ireland
R.I.P. EU

[–] nemini 16 years ago

I'm German and even I don't care about the accent after all it's not an Austrian but an American movie!

[–] fleischwolf 16 years ago

but an american accent in a european periodpiece just doesn't fit! the classic english accent is more appropriate in such films!

--
Thank you Ireland
R.I.P. EU

[–] blaine3-2 16 years ago

Ha, the Romans should speak with Italian accents...that might be funny depending on the social class of the accent.

Then you had Mel Gibson's horrible passion of the christ which had the Romans speaking Latin, but Pontius Pilate being a fair diplomat was shown to be fluent in Aramaic also which was the language of Judea in that era.

[–] nuclearheadache 16 years ago

I didn't say that everyone should speak with an American accent. You're putting words in my mouth. I also didn't say that everything should be in the original language with translated subtitles. That would be tedious. I think that the ACCENTS should reflect the native language (i.e. Germans speaking with a German ACCENT & Greeks speaking with a Greek ACCENT & so on) but I think the dialougue could still be spoken in the English LANGUAGE for the sake of convienence for English speaking audiences without completely sacrifising the realism.

You guys are twisting around what I said and then attacking me on points I wasn't even making. On the one hand we've got someone confusing the difference between accents and language and then claiming that I'm making a complaint about people speaking the English LANGUAGE in historical movies. I don't have a problem with that. I was talking about Hollywood's dumbed-down idea that people all over the world and through-out history spoke with these formal Shakespearean English accents. For God's sakes, I've seen movies set in Japan where everyone spoke with English accents. And if you don't understand the difference between accents and languages, then turn off your computer, go get your crayons and coloring book, and leave the conversation to people with IQ's above room temperature. Now, on the other hand, we have this Irish guy here who's gotten all worked up because he assumes that I'm some sort of ignorant American that thinks historical characters speaking with an American accent would sound more NORMAL that an English accent. I don't know where you got that idea from. I think you jumped a little ahead of my train of thought there. With Europeans it seems like anything that even remotely touches on their national identity really strikes a nerve and they get very defensive. "He said something about English accents; he must be insulting England & Ireland. That dumb American thinks he's better than us. I'll put a stop to that." Type...Type...Type...drool.

[–] A_Normal_Person 15 years ago

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yea this bugged me too as I think was set in Austria or Gemrnay. I had the same problem with 300 Greeks with Scottish Accents.
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In what movie, pray tell was this ...really 300 people of whom were all were heard articulating Scottish accents ...really now :( ...It's impossible to detect this phenomenon ...10 to 20 people articulating in a room would sound like mummering with no intelligible language at all ...the human ear can only distinguish just so much.

[–] nuclearheadache 13 years ago

Obviously the person should have written: I had the same problem with 300 - Greeks with Scottish Accents.

...or your mother should have gone ahead with the abortion.

Either one would have solved the problem.

[–] shenandoahpride 16 years ago

Ah, come on.

If an English accent is good enough for Jesus (at least in every movie I've ever seen about Him), then certainly it's good enough for these characters.

Give me love , give me love , give me peace on earth.

[–] Flippitygibbit 16 years ago

I actually thought Edward Norton sounded South African! But at least they were trying to speak with an accent - well, Edward Norton, Rufus Sewell, and Jake Wood. On occasion.

"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy

[–] therock22 16 years ago

Norton's character wasn't speaking with an English accent. It was like a German person speaking Enlgish. So it was more like a German accent,but not as harsh.

[–] fleischwolf 16 years ago

no it was not.

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Thank you Ireland
R.I.P. EU

[–] kdk2002 16 years ago

During the late 1800's (when this film is set) educated Europeans would have spoken French with a perfect French accent or English with a fine English accent. Tsar Nicholas and his German-born wife (who was Victoria's granddaughter) sounded far more like a British couple than the rulers of Russia; in fact, she didn't speak any Russian at all!

So the crown prince & his girlfriend would have spoken fluent French and English. He would also have spoken his native Austrian German, and she her native Hungarian and (perhaps) German. Eisenheim was Jewish, so he would have known Austrian German and Hebrew and/or Yiddish. Eisenheim and the police chief were both from working class families, so I don't know if either would have known French or English.

To make this film "realistic", Rudolph & his gf would have used French or English with each other. All other conversations would probably have been in Austrian German.

[–] fleischwolf 16 years ago

it was indeed en vogue to speak french at court, but not english. that said, the everyday language even for the aristocrats would be their native language in this case german. sophie was not native hungarian. von teschen is a german name! just because she was the princess of hungary doesn't mean she was hungarian. prince charles is english and is the prince of wales!

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Thank you Ireland
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[–] SuzLouA 16 years ago

Austria doesn't own Hungary, though. England sort of "owns" Wales (in that they are ruled by the English monarch and so forth - please, Welshies, I would never claim to own you, my flatmate and one of my best friends are Welsh, and they have just as much fun making fun of me for being Northern as I do them for being Welsh), certainly enough that the eldest son of the monarch, and heir to the throne, is always known as the Prince of Wales.

Plus, as some people seem to have forgotten, Sophie wasn't princess of sweet FA. She was the DUCHESS von Teschen.

[–] fleischwolf 16 years ago

but hundred years ago hungary was part of the austrian-hungarian empire, just as wales is part of the united kingdom! so she holds an hungarian aristocrate title, even though she's austrian!
--
Thank you Ireland
R.I.P. EU

[–] redsweater 16 years ago

I didn't realize anyone other than the prince used a consistent accent. :P. It seemed to be, maybe I'm austrian, maybe I'm german, usually I'm english if I get lost, and sometimes I'm just Jessica Biel or Giamatti speaking very deeply.

ugh, what a muck up. I guess the only way around it would have been to not use any of these actors. Giamatti was the best one here aside from Rufus Sewell but I couldn't get over Giamatti's comic face.

[–] blaine3-2 16 years ago

Having English spoken with foreign accents makes no sense. In reality the elite of many European countries would speak French in the 19th century as this was fashionable. So you would have all these different Europeans of different nationalities speaking French with German, Austrian, Russian accents with subtitles in various languages. This would harm the US market as US audiences by and large will not tolerate sub-titled movies. Plus how many native English speakers could pull off speaking French with different accents?

In films like "The Longest Day" the German high command is shown speaking German with English subtitles, to me this added to the film but these were very short scenes.

There is a trend to portray the Elite in all historical movies with upper crust English accents to be sure.

[–] crabbie74 16 years ago

I am watching this movie now and cannot get over the bad "British" or whatever they are accents. In fact, I purposely looked it up here to see if anyone else had the same problem I am having and apparently I'm not the only one. Please actors, if you can't do a decent accent, be it English, American, German, Russian, etc., just speak in your normal voice. It is so grating on one's nerves to have to be subjected to a bad accent for 2 hours!!

If the filmmakers wanted to do British accents, couldn't they have just found British actors to do this movie? And while I'm on the subject, what is up with all of the British and Australian actors doing American roles??? Of all of the thousands of American actors out there, they can't find one of them to do the role??? They need Nicole Kidman, Hugh Jackman or Jude Law for these roles? Really???

[–] hrhqueene 15 years ago

Listen to the director's commentary. He makes it plain that he was going for a very SLIGHT Austrian accent from all the actors, NOT an English one at all. If you can't hear the cadence and recognize it, then don't blame the actors. They did a fine job to my ears.

[–] dtechba 16 years ago

Your point is a little ridiculous. The film allegedly occurred in Austria and the characters are supposed to be Austrian. To argue about what accent they would have had is immaterial as in real life everyone would have spoken Austrian (a very hard to understand German). The fact they spoke English is only to allow for us to watch it. I realize this board is populated by movie lovers but to argue about such things is crazy. Its a movie and it is a movie watched by people who speak English so the characters will speak in a manner totally out of touch with reality. Go watch it in Austria and I am sure you will get the correct effect. BTW, in 19th Century Europe, French was the language of the courts so among mixed nationalities it would be likely everyone would speak French not English.