Spain: the World's Most Powerful Empire in 1585?????? - Elizabeth: The Golden Age (2007) Discussion

[–] AsianFilmGurus 16 years ago

The most powerful Empire in the World History at the time was the Roman Empire, followed by Mongolian (Remember they invaded China and brought her to her knees). Now the most powerful Empire in History up to modern date, would certainly have to be the British Empire - they conquered/controlled more land mass in terms of area than any other Empire before it. so therefore the most powerful were

1. Roman and British Empires
2. Mongolian and Spanish
3. Chinese

However if one talks about 'powerful' in terms of achievement, then America (even though it's not an Empire as such) would fit they bill. All inventions that the world uses today, from cars, air-crafts, electronics, computers, mobile phones, skyscapers, superhighways, plastics, Television, radio were invented by America. And they did all this in far less time than all the older Empires.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

"The most powerful Empire in the World History at the time was the Roman Empire, followed by Mongolian (Remember they invaded China and brought her to her knees). Now the most powerful Empire in History up to modern date, would certainly have to be the British Empire - they conquered/controlled more land mass in terms of area than any other Empire before it. so therefore the most powerful were"

Between the II century b. c. and the V century a. D. the Roman Empire was the most powerful but was not a worldwide empire like the mongolian. The british empire only dominated natives people in America, Australia or Africa was never an European power their armies were ridiculous compare to German or French armies in the XIX century.
The spanish was a worldwide empire, the most powerful country in Europe and in the world.

"However if one talks about 'powerful' in terms of achievement, then America (even though it's not an Empire as such) would fit they bill. All inventions that the world uses today, from cars, air-crafts, electronics, computers, mobile phones, skyscapers, superhighways, plastics, Television, radio were invented by America. And they did all this in far less time than all the older Empires."

Oh yes America is very powerful, she was defeated in Korea, Vietnam, etc ... Third world countries.

"All inventions that the world uses today, from cars, air-crafts, electronics, computers, mobile phones, skyscapers, superhighways, plastics, Television, radio were invented by America."

They have to share these inventions with Europe and Japan.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] TotallyBlunt 16 years ago

I'd like to stir the argument further by making the distinction of a colonialist empire (Britain and Spain after colonialism) to what dumbwolf calls a "land empire" (Roman, Spanish before colonialism, Chinese, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires), the distinction being, the first kind has gone overseas just to exploit the place. In other words, trying to decide which is the "biggest" and the "most powerful" empire is comparing apples to oranges.

Besides, who cares! History is history and should be taken for what it is: history. This has turned into a peeing contest.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

"Where do you learn your history adeherrpal? From the back of cornflakes boxes?"

I learned history in the University not like you who only know the black legend propaganda.

"The Mongolian Empire was not a world-wide empire - it was an Asian empire and considered the largest continuous LAND empire in history"

I am sorry I wanted to mean Spanish empire instead of Mongolian empire.

"dwarfing the size of the Spanish Empire at it's height"

35 mill square km vs 30 mill square km I don't think "dwarfing" would be the correct word.

"Although in 1585 the Spanish Empire was the largest in Europe, it only controlled parts of Central and South America"

Almost all South America, Central America and parts of North America and you have to add the portuguese empire with her colonies in America, Asia and Africa, much larger than the Songhai empire or the Chinese empire

Which was the extension and the annual income of the Songhai empire or the Chinese empire.

"It also created it's own colonies there... and you are forgetting the Indian sub-continent, (it only has a landmass and population equal with China!!!), the carribean, southeast asia etc. Considering the combined British possessions in Africa alone were larger than the whole of the Mongolian Empire - they shouldn't be dimissed so easily."

The mongolian empire had about 35 millions square km, the british possesions in Africa were not even 15 mill square km.

"It had the worlds most powerful navy for over 300 years. Not a claim that Spain could ever make!"

Spain had the most powerful army in 150 years. Not a claim that Britain could ever make.

"It was a United Nations force in Korea, of which America had the largest contingent - and it WON the Korea War! What are you smoking? "

They had to run away to South Korea when China entered the war and push the allied to the south.

"Actually, none of these were invented in Japan. Most were invented in Europe, quite a few in America, one in New Zealand, and NONE were invented in Spain! "

Well the helicopter, the radio, the submarine, ...spanish inventions.

"Spain was never the largest Empire in History, never has been and never will be"

I never said that, I only said that in her time Spain was the largest and most powerful empire in the world and in Europe, something that Britain was never able to achieve.

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] acheron33 16 years ago

submarine : isaac peral 1888. as modern combat submarine .
But there was the prototype of da vinci.
peral prototype was the first one to use torpedos and to navigate on open sea and deep.
later his desings where shaped into the germans u boats .
the submarine is on cartagena if im not wrong.

isaac submarine could stay 8 days under the sea. dont remember the speed but it was a smaller version of the german v-80 .

http://www.sharkhunters.com/typeadditional.htm

about the helicopter papal is confused the spanish created the gyroplane no the copter . if you remember mad max im sure you remember it.

the radio issue is the following . the spanish commander cervera worked with marconi and george kemp cervera pattern is atleats 4 months older than marconi one .

Howver yes marconi company is older than cervera because he took longuer to get money to launch his own company . also have on mind he went straigh to military use such mines explosives . marconi went to it years later and using cervera works. when he died he have atleats 4 works of cervera and they all older than his works,

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[–] ixusillwrath 12 years ago

Cornelius Drebbel invented the submarine in 1620. He was Dutch. People get your facts straight. I don't care if your post is 4 years old.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

"and dominated Europe for most of the 19th Century"

This is the proof that you don't have any idea of history. Tell me How could Britain dominate Europe in the XIX century ?

"The most generous estimate for the size of the Spanish Empire I've ever found 20 million square km - not 30!!."

During the Iberian Union the territory controlled by Philip II was almost 30 million square km.

"It is also essential to remember that at it's height (1580-1640 During the Iberian Union) the Spanish Empire claimed ownership over vast parts of North and South America - but actually maintained administrative or military control over very little of it."

Those lands were very underpopulated, but they were administrated and controlled by the spanish administration of the viceroyalties.
UK claimed all Canada when in the XIX cnetury the 80 % of the territory was covered with snow and no english man was ever seen

"For example, the Spanish Empire claimed most of what is now the United States, but a huge area was actually controlled by the Commanche federation of tribes who where entirely independant. Spanish attempts to subjugate them failed, they never conquered the commanche but still claimed the area as their territory."

The same as the independent princely states in India. The 80 % of India.

"During the same period the Spanish Empire claimed New Guinea as it's territory, but no Spaniard ever set foot there."

In 1527 Jorge de Meneses arrived to New Guinea and reclaimed this land of the king of Spain.

"Also, from a historical perspective, under the terms of the Iberian Union, and the promises of Philip II of Spain, although Portugal effectively became part of Spain, the Portugese empire remained independant and the Spanish never held legal, military or administrative control over the Portugese Empire. I can site this with historical references if you wish."

Portugal was conquered by the spanish armies of the Duke of Alba and the Portuguese empire was defended by the same armies and navies than the rest of the spanish empire. The center of the Portugal empire goverment and administration was not in Lisbon but in Madrid.

Now give me this references

"When one compares population, wealth, influence and land area it actaully controlled then a non-fanatical mind might see how that the Songhai and Chinese empires where considerably more powerful... although the territories they "claimed" may have been far smaller."

You insist very much in the Songhay empire which was nothing compare to the spanish empire, and the Chinese empire who tried to invaded the philipiness islands and was totally defeated by a small spanish force.
Speaking about wealth, influence these empire were nothing compare to the spanish empire.

"However spouting absolute rubbish and historical nonsense of your own is no way to redress the historical injustices of the past."

I would tell you historical nonsenses :

The Songhai empire was much more powerful, rich, etc ... than the spanish empire.

I don't know where do you get the idea that this African empire was a global empire which could defeat and humilliated countries so powerful as France or the Ottoman empire which could control the comercial routes between America, Europe, Asia and Africa which had the more powerful navy and armies in the world, etc...

Britain was the most powerful country of Europe in the XIX century.

The British army in the XIX century was ridiculous compare to the armies of others nations of Europe, her participation in the Crimean war was shameful.

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[–] nick-613 16 years ago

Largest Empires in History by Total Land

1. British Empire - 36.6 million km² or 14.13 million mi² (under King George V in 1922)

2. Mongol Empire - 33.2 million km² or 12.82 million mi² (under Khublai Khan in 1268)

3. Russian Empire - 22.8 million km² or 8.8 million mi² (under Nicholas II in 1895)

4. Spanish Empire - 19 million km² or 7.33 million mi² (under King Charles III r. 1759-1788)

5. Umayyad Arab Empire - 13.2 million km² or 5.1 million mi² (under Hisham ibn Abd al-Malik r. 723-743)

On the other hand, "powerful" is very relative. But I would go with either the British Empire or the Roman Empire because of their lasting contributions to civilization.

What exactly is Spain's contribution to global civilization? Does anyone know?
;)

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

What is the British contribution to civilization of the British empire in South Africa : The apartheid, in Ireland : the genocide of Elizabeth I , Cromwell or the famine of the XIX century, in Australia : the extermination of the aboriginal people, ....

I know what has been the contribution of the British empire : extermination of the native people and explotation of the resources of the country.

Go the South America and watch the cities and monuments, churches, palaces, etc ... world heritage, try to find these things in the british colonies.

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[–] TheRedKing 16 years ago

Well, I'm finished with our discussion about Britain's army etc. You are right in some of your points, though in many cases a victory is a victory, and the term ridiculous was still rather unfair (ridiculous in itself tbh).

But now you critisize our Empire and again I feel the need to defend my countries name. Though out of interest are you of Spanish decent yourself?

Firstly, Oliver Cromwell was a vile man, he is a villain of English History, his actions in Ireland evil, but that was the way at the time, religion was a much bigger issue back then.

But your comment on Genocide gets me. The world heritage of South America may be great, though I don't think the Inca's or Aztec's can really appreciate it the way we do. Any idea why that might be, the Spanish conquest of the area perhaps? And how much gold was taken by the Spanish back then?

The British Empire was built around Trade, that benefitted much of the world not just Britain, we just don't have an array of pretty buildings to show for it. Oh and by the way, Canada, Australia and the USA were all once British Colonies, they are all now great nations in their own right, where do Brazil, Mexico and Argentina now rank amongst the worlds great nations?

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[–] anticaria 15 years ago

"""4. Spanish Empire - 19 million km² or 7.33 million mi² (under King Charles III r. 1759-1788)"""

no serious observer would ever use any time period after the war of the spanish successsion and the treaty of utrecht of 1713 as the zenith of spanish imperial expasion..

an infinitely more accurate indicator would be to use the period between 1580-1640, when spain and portugal were unified under philip II in what was known as the iberian union to form the greatest overseas, trans-oceanic empire in the entire history of the world..

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[–] anticaria 14 years ago

<<<<What exactly is Spain's contribution to global civilization? Does anyone know?
;)>>>>

easy enough.. let's get started, shall we?:

1. st. isidore of seville, spanish visigothic archbishop of seville, and compiler of the 'etymologiae,' the first encyclopedia in the history of christian civilization..

2. al-andalus, home to the first and original intellectual and scientific 'renaissance' in europeaan civilization -while the rest of the continent slumbered in ignorance- without the brilliant pioneering civilization of medieval al-andalus and the priceless knowledge of the ancient greeks stored and archived in córdoba and toledo, subsequent movements, such as the italian renaissance, might've been delayed by centuries..

3. first truly global empire 'on which the sun never sets'.. a phrase originally coined in spain to describe the global realms of emperor charles V, and then shamelessly borrowed/stolen by the british to describe their own empire.. <g>

4. first global currency- the 'real de ocho' or 'piece of eight,' basis for the u.s. dollar..

5. first global trade route- the 'spanish treasure fleet' operating the manila-acapulco galleon route..

6. bernardino de sahagún, spanish franciscan missionary and father of modern ethnography and compiler of the first encyclopedia of the american continent as well as the first codification of an american language, nahuatl..

7. bartolomé de las casas, spanish dominican missionary, first global human rights pioneer..

8. st. ignatius loyola, founder of the jesuits..

9. santo domingo de guzmán, founder of the dominicans..

10. st. francis xavier, apostle of asia, the supreme protoytpe of the jesuit missionary..

11. discovery and colonization of the new world..

12. setting in motion of the 'columbian exchange,' the first truly global and most pervasive exchange of technological, agricultural and intellectual ideas in the entire history of humanity..

13. establishment of the oldest cities, churches and universities across the colonial world, constituting the largest building program in the history of humanity, comprising more historical sites recognized by unesco around the globe than any other colonial civilization before or since -after all, it is no accident that the spaniards are known as 'the greatest builders since the romans'.. as well as bringing the catholic faith to distant lands and peoples across the globe, a legacy which to this day stands as one of the most memorable ideological/intellectual feats of any imperial enterprise..

14. first circumnavigation of the globe by magellan/elcano's expedition in 1519-21..

15. first catholic saints of the colonial world were all spanish..

16. pilgrimage to the shrine of st. james the greater in santiago de compostela is known as the first european consciousness route and the intellectual and artistic impetus and catalyst behind romanesque art and architecture..

17. st. teresa of ávila, first female doctor of the catholic church..

that's just off the top of my head, though one could also add the introduction of crops such as tomatoes, potatoes, corn, chocolate, peppers, etc to the european diet..

are you still laughing, nick? or has that grin of yours turned into a frown? lol that's ok, though.. you're no doubt a product of the 'fine' british school system <g> which apparently still passes off black legend hubris as so-called historical 'fact'.. ha! ;-)

btw, until the british collective psyche is able to come to terms with the fact that the pioneering empire of the modern age of 'global' exploration was the spanish empire and that it was spain's riches at a time when england was merely a jealous, pyratical nation on the fringes of europe begging for the crumbs of the spanish galleon trade, you will all remain collectively beholden to the notion of a 'black legend' in order to boost your own nation's historical 'morale' at the dawn of the age of exploration.. spain's imperial lead was the model britain tried so desperately to emulate and follow, and it was that desperate struggle to catch up and match spain's imperial greatness which ultimately became the impetus which fueled your own english/british path to empire.. i.e., spain was the mythical giant which first showed you the way!

so next time you brits feel the need to irrationally bash the spanish empire, try giving thanks instead, for without imperial spain's global trailblazing deeds in leading european imperial exploration across the globe, you guys would've had no role model to look up to and force you to grow some global imperial balls and venture outside of your little island enclave.. cheers! ;-)

btw.. that little ancient 'wall' you brits are so fond and proud of was actually built by order of emperor hadrian, born in hispania (spain).. yet another 'hispanic' imperial contribution you brits conveniently forget to mention.. <wink>

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[–] TheRedKing 16 years ago

OK, so I'm not going to encroach on the huge debate going on between the two guys above, but I want to make a few points, in defence of my own country (UK) and Spain (in relation to original post).

It was mentioned Britain's army was ridiculous compared to Germany and France in the 19th century. Rubbish, Britain couldn't have controlled the largest Empire ever with an inferior army. We beat the French in the Napoleanic war remember, and forced back the Germans many times during the first and second world wars in Europe, Africa and Blighty herself.

As for Spain being the most powerful Empire in the world in 1580's. I agree, I don't know much about Spanish history other than where it entwines with ours but I imagine with it's superior technology it would have crushed China at the time had it ever felt it neccessary. China may have been great but it was isolated and could not count alongside real global superpowers AT THE TIME. Spain controlled the southern America's and was the greatest power in the atlantic, hence it being all the more impressive when Francis Drake led England to an unlikely victory over the Armada.

I'm not here to argue though, I don't know THAT much about global history at the time other than to do with England,

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[–] stephen_dunston 16 years ago

this is like arguing who's the world's best dad.

i think most of you are missing the point. the line was obviously made from the perspective of the characters in THIS MOVIE.

yall need to get a life

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

"We beat the French in the Napoleanic war remember"

You din't beat the French in the Napoleonic wars, the army of Wellington in the Paeninsula war was nothing without the Portuguese and the spanish army.Look what happen to Moore, he had to run away to Corunna in 1809 to escape from the French army. Waterloo was no an english victory but an allied victoy between the allied army of Wellington ( British, Hessians, Hanoverians, Belgians, Dutchmen, ... ), Prussians and the French.

30.000 british against 500.000 French and you said the you beat the French.

"and forced back the Germans many times during the first and second world wars in Europe, Africa and Blighty herself."

During the first world war you wer fighting together with the French, the Russian against the Germans. In 1914 the British army was formed by 300.000 men against the 3.000.000 Germans.

In the second world war you had to run away in 1940 and without the american helped and the Russian front ( where was the 75 % of the German armed forces ) you would have put a foot on continental soil. In Africa you fighted against a ridiculous German army without gasoline and resources.

"Francis Drake led England to an unlikely victory over the Armada."

There was not such a victory, the only combat in the campaign was the battle of Gravelines, the english only sank 3 ships of more than 100 hundred they were unable to damege the large galleons and they were run out ammunitions. The big problem of the Armada after this engagement was the weather.

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[–] TheRedKing 16 years ago

I'm not going into this too deep, like I said I was only defending my country against that moronic statement (that our army was ridiculous).
However I will answer all your points only once:

"You din't beat the French in the Napoleonic wars, the army of Wellington in the Paeninsula war was nothing without the Portuguese and the spanish army.Look what happen to Moore, he had to run away to Corunna in 1809 to escape from the French army. Waterloo was no an english victory but an allied victoy between the allied army of Wellington ( British, Hessians, Hanoverians, Belgians, Dutchmen, ... ), Prussians and the French.

30.000 british against 500.000 French and you said the you beat the French"

The British army of the time was far greater than 30,000 and your forgetting our clear victory at Trafalgar and on the Nile.

"During the first world war you wer fighting together with the French, the Russian against the Germans. In 1914 the British army was formed by 300.000 men against the 3.000.000 Germans"

But by the end it was about 5,000,000 albeit half were conscripts, also Austria fought with Germany, we weren't the only ones with allies.

"In the second world war you had to run away in 1940 and without the american helped and the Russian front ( where was the 75 % of the German armed forces ) you would have put a foot on continental soil. In Africa you fighted against a ridiculous German army without gasoline and resources."

I see, so the Battle of Britain never happened? Oh I forgot Ben Affleck won that for us lol. And I wouldn't call ANY German army of the time 'ridiculous' you like that word don't you.

"There was not such a victory, the only combat in the campaign was the battle of Gravelines, the english only sank 3 ships of more than 100 hundred they were unable to damege the large galleons and they were run out ammunitions. The big problem of the Armada after this engagement was the weather. "

So we didn't defeat the Armada? And Spain decided to sail all around the British Isles of their own will? Fair enough, I actually thought Phillip sent the fleet to INVADE England!!!

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

"The British army of the time was far greater than 30,000 and your forgetting our clear victory at Trafalgar and on the Nile."

Of course it was far greater but in the Peninsula campaign or the Waterloo campaign there were number more than 30.000 or 40.000 british soldiers.

Trafalgar and the Nile were sea victories, you were the best at sea but in land you were far from the best armies. Austria, Russia or Prussia they had much more powerful armies.

"But by the end it was about 5,000,000 albeit half were conscripts, also Austria fought with Germany, we weren't the only ones with allies."

Austria only fought against Italy and Russia. Germany fought alone against France and Britain together.

"I see, so the Battle of Britain never happened? Oh I forgot Ben Affleck won that for us lol. And I wouldn't call ANY German army of the time 'ridiculous' you like that word don't you."

Remember that the german planes only could fly over Britain over half and hour and return to the continent and even though they almost brought you to your knees. Remember also the american supplies and the ludwaffe was not defeated by the RAF they stopped the bombing because Hitler was preparing the URSS campaign.

"So we didn't defeat the Armada? And Spain decided to sail all around the British Isles of their own will? Fair enough, I actually thought Phillip sent the fleet to INVADE England!!!"

The armada was defeated by the weather, english ships were unabled to sink any of the spanish ships, their cannons were not enough powerful to damage seriously the spanish ships and english were afraid to try to board spanish ships because if they had tried to board them they could be massacrated by the best soldiers of the XVI century.

The armada had to round the british islands because of the winds and the tides which forced to the armada to that way.

In the XVI century Spain fighted alone against France, Turks, English, Dutch, German protestants, etc ...was the most powerful army in Europe and the most powerful empire in the world.

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[–] wowplayer123 16 years ago

China is a great nation!

Their military tactics are brilliant, just swamp enemies in a human tide. It's easy fighting wars with endless pool of expendable manpower. Look at China's great history of invading neighbors often with crushingly overwhelming numbers and still losing.

They invented Paper and Gunpowder, and decided that was enough so they stopped.

They had boats even better then westerners! Too bad they dare not sail them anywhere outside of view of the coast.

Face it, China hit its technological peak around the 1400s and by 1585 it was stagnating, that trend continues with no major developments of note for 250 years until Europe comes knocking. All of China's technology today is often considered inferior to its Western equivalent, and none of it is innovative.

China is the world leader of being number 2.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

China in the XVI century was no rival to Spain.In the XVI century Spain was a superpower not only from the militar point of view but economically the king of Spain was the richest monarch in Europe and the world. A chinese invasion of the Philippiness islands was crushly defeated by a small group of man.
The armies of China were nothing compare to the armies of Spain.

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[–] acheron33 16 years ago

they invented the gunpowder so the spanish took it and used to form the tercios using arquebusiers ,p

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[–] AsianFilmGurus 16 years ago

No contest. The most POWERFUL Empire is the British. Why, you ask?

Which language dominates the world today, spoken universally? []

If Spain, or Mongolia had it their way, we'd be speaking Spanish or Mongolian today. And we'd still have Kings and Queens instead of democracy governments ruling the world.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

"No contest. The most POWERFUL Empire is the British. Why, you ask? "

When ? In what time ? with what army ?

The british empire was the largest of history but it doesn't mean that it was the most powerful. For example the German empire had the most powerful army and during the first world war it was needed the armies of France, Russia, UK and USA to defeat the german armies.

Chinese is the most spoken language in the world and the second one is spanish.

"And we'd still have Kings and Queens instead of democracy governments ruling the world."

UK has a monarchy. And a very undemocratic form of parliament, in the house of peers the existence of life or hereditary peers. The aristocray and the church people in the parliament. We are not in the middle ages.

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[–] TheRedKing 16 years ago

Can you tell me how the British Parliament is any more undemocratic than that of America?
I'm not disagreeing, just asking.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

The existance of hereditary and life peers in the upper house I think is very democratic and of course the bishops they still have a representation in the house of peers.The Church having vote in the house more typical of the ancient regime parliament that a XXI century parliament.

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[–] AsianFilmGurus 16 years ago

English is the language spoken by the MOST countries of the World. It's the language glue that binds the Arabic, India and Chinese world together. It's far too in-grained in our society and in science - eg the use of English in Mathematical formulas to Chemistry and Physics... E=mc2 4Na + O2 2Na2O

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[–] ciprianl 15 years ago

Actually, mathematical formulas do not use English symbols, but mathematical ones (+,-,:,/ ), the Arabic numeral symbols (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0), plus Greek and Latin letters in Algebra.
The symbol "E" for "energy" comes from the Greek word "energeia".
"Na" is the abbreviation of "Natrium", and it comes from Latin.
"1+1=2" is not written in English, nor "p->q" (the truth-value of proposition "p" implies the truth-value of proposition "q"), they are written in the language of mathematics, and respectively of the symbolic logic of propositions.
Each exact science has developed for it's use a language consisting of a specific set of symbols, and their definitions.
The wide use of English in the scientific circles, that is mentioned above, can refer only to it's convenience to use it as a meta-language, that speaks in a natural language about the propositions of the scientific language, as when a mathematics teacher explains to the class the meaning of the symbols drawn upon the blackboard. Another mathematician, entering the classroom, would not need these explanations, he can read these equations themselves.

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[–] ixusillwrath 12 years ago

From the middle of the 18th century until the end of the 19th. You asked.

You are wrong about Mandarin Chinese. It merely has the most NATIVE speakers. There's about 4 times as many people on the planet that speak English. Try flying a plane without knowing it. You'd get grounded over Chinese airspace for not complying with the language of aviation.

The UK has a constitutional monarchy which sure is a far cry from a monarchy without the preceding word.

As far as WW1? Germany was comprised of the Triple Alliance, which was about half of mainlaind Europe... not just Germany.

I wish you people would wait until the 10th grade before getting into these types of debates.

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[–] JankaJaakari 16 years ago

"Oh yes America is very powerful, she was defeated in Korea, Vietnam, etc ... Thrid world countries."

Some how I doubt that spaniards from any age would have fared up close to anything comparable. All thoght I would loved to see movie where Spanish Tercios get moved down with AKs by little guys in black pyjamas. Korea and Vietnam as countries were not great but enemy that US fought against was not solely consist of those nations. May be your dwell too much in ancient and obselete historical deeds Spain (and yes Spain is obselete third world country still) to fail to understand importance of history of the last century, the same century you your self have lived on.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

Spain in the XVI and XVII centuries had to fight the most powerfull empire of that age and defeated them several times, France, England, Turkish empire, Protestant Germany, The Low countries, etc...

"Spain is obselete third world country still" You should come to Spain to see that, we are the eighth richest country in the world. You like many of your countrymen must think that Spain is in South America.

Spain was the only superpower in Europe and in the world.

"Some how I doubt that spaniards from any age would have fared up close to anything comparable."

You are right we never were defeated by a third world country.

"obselete historical deeds"

The XVI century is as obsolete as the Korean or the Vietnam wars.

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[–] JankaJaakari 16 years ago

Simple mind with simple brain cell sums you up quite good. There are NOTHING in some by gone wars of 15th, 16th or 17th century of spanish "glory days" that you can compare to 20th century warfare. War in different ages are not comparable since todays Albania would kick ass of Spain on 16th century regardless if it was worlds super power of the time.

Vietnam war was not fought against country of Vietnam dumb ass and Korean war was UN sanctioned "police operation" in which multinational forces participated and again was not fought against country of Korea (and if you are that blissfully moronic as you have presented your self you have failed to learn the fact that main fighting in Korean War happened between UN sanctioned coalition forces and communist CHINESE forces.)

What comes to Spain being eight riches country in world is just total bull. CIA fact book and International Monetary Fund ranks Spain to 26th place, World Bank puts them in 21st place so average of these figures puts Spain some where 23rd-24th richest country in the world.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

"What comes to Spain being eight riches country in world is just total bull. CIA fact book and International Monetary Fund ranks Spain to 26th place, World Bank puts them in 21st place so average of these figures puts Spain some where 23rd-24th richest country in the world."

Don't you know the difference between gross domestic product (GDP) per capita and the gross domestic product.
According to the GDP per capita Qatar is the richest country in the world. The gross domestic product is the market value of final goods and services from a nation in year and gross domestic product (GDP) per capita are the gross domestic product divided by the population.There is a big difference.

Learn a little bit of economy, *beep* And come to Spain to find by yourself why hundred of thousand of Europeans live here instead of in their countries

"Vietnam war was not fought against country of Vietnam dumb ass"

not of course it was fought against part of the country, and you were defeated and expelled from it.

And Korean war was UN sanctioned "police operation" in which multinational forces participated and again was not fought against country of Korea (and if you are that blissfully moronic as you have presented your self you have failed to learn the fact that main fighting in Korean War happened between UN sanctioned coalition forces and communist CHINESE forces.)

Well you were defeated by the armies of a third world nation, because China's armies were nothing compare to the current Chinese armies. It was an army of a thirld war nation who have just came out from a war and invasion from Japan and a civil war, a country destroyed of decades of war with an army formed by large number of soldiers but with an old technology.The american soldier is a coward they are showing it in Iraq when they shoot at the slightest ocassion.

"Simple mind with simple brain cell sums you up quite good"

You must be american for the superiority complex and the ignorance you are showing.

"There are NOTHING in some by gone wars of 15th, 16th or 17th century of spanish "glory days" that you can compare to 20th century warfare."

Of course not, in that time Spain fought against the most powerful countries in the world, France, The Turks, England, German Protestant princes, The United provinces and at the same time and we kept an empire 300 hundred years. We stopped for example in Cartagena de Indias in 1741 an assault of 186 ships and 25.000 british soldiers with only 2.000 soldiers and the operation ended with 50 ships and 18.000 casualties by the british side.

"War in different ages are not comparable since todays Albania would kick ass of Spain on 16th century regardless if it was worlds super power of the time."

Albania would kick ass to Spain ! perhaps to the USA because they have a lot of experience being kicked in the ass by thirld world countries.

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[–] TheRedKing 16 years ago

I'll return to this debate only to address the point you made about hundreds of thousands of Europeans coming to Spain.
Those coming from Eastern Europe do so because their own countries are in economic ruin, believe me I'm English, I know how hard it is taking on an unrealistic influx of immigrants. Their own countries are backwards so they'll take anywhere west of Germany.
Those coming from the UK, France or anywhere else in western Europe come for the holiday lifestyle, I doubt Spain's economic stability is the main reason.

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[–] adeherrpal 16 years ago

"I'll return to this debate only to address the point you made about hundreds of thousands of Europeans coming to Spain.
Those coming from Eastern Europe do so because their own countries are in economic ruin"

I was talking about the numbers of Western Europeans living, not coming on holidays in the Spanish coast. You can find villages in Valencia or la Costa del Sol where you find more people from Norway, Sweden or Germany than spanish people living there, not only spending their vacation there.
The main reason is the good weather and the spanish quality of life. The salary of course is not so good than in others Western European countries but the cost of life is no so high also.

"I doubt Spain's economic stability is the main reason"

The stability of the Spain economy is equal to the stability of the UK, France, Italy, etc...not very good. Look the fall of the Sterling pound compare to the Euro.

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[–] TheRedKing 16 years ago

The pound stopped falling to the Euro months ago and though it is still lower than it was it is steady.

And I meant living in Spain, and still my reason stands, its only for the nice weather and most of them are retired anyway, they aren't thinking 'oh I'd be better off living in spain' because in truth that's hardly the case at all.

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[–] richimorton 15 years ago

'adeherrpal' , you are a bitter & twisted idiot with a warped agenda. Stop trying to rewrite History as you are just making a fool of yourself.

That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .

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[–] mreigle-1 16 years ago

My take on this was simply that Spain's EMPIRE was the most powerful in the world...which it was.
What EMPIRE did China have back in the 16th Century except....China?

My 2 cents anyway

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[–] WSFranco 15 years ago

get your facts straight. in the 1500's there were two equaly powerfull in the world, spain and portugal. they divided the world in two. dumb americans

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[–] MsEmmaFrost 15 years ago

Not exactly.

Firts of all, it's incorrect to say that Spain was the most powerful EMPIRE in 1585. Spain was not an Empire. In fact, it wasn't Spain, yet. But let's be nice.

Felipe II, Principe de Asturias, Duque de Milán, King of Castilla, Aragón, Portugal, Napoles, Nueva España, Lord of the Netherlands, Duke of Borgoña, etc WAS the most powerful sovereign of the century.

Portugal became part of Felipe's domains in 1580. Even before that, the wealth the Felipe's Crown found in America was way, way bigger than what Portugal found both in America and Africa.

So, it was right to say that Felipe's kingdom was the most powerful in 1585. By 1588, when the Armada Invencible attacked England, nobody thought it would be defeated. And even after the Armada's fiasco and the war in the Netherlands, Spain remained powerful for some time.

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[–] acheron33 15 years ago

Portugal was a ruin , they lost his king and the 90% of his nobility on north africa.

The biggest irony , Philip attemp to take portugal king on a war on north africa with a lame army and with not enough support.

He wanted to back up portugal with his tercios, portugal refused, even when philip would pay the cost of his own troops.

Unlike philip father , there were not spanish pikeman to defend his king.

yes spainish troops where stranded on the neverending siege and mud that wasthe netherlands but not many would dare to try to face spain army on open field.

And even on bankrupt, with mutinys that cost himthe absolute victory , under the cross of burgundy rising would come, italians, portuguese, wallons, germans, irish , english, greeks,and many more .

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[–] pedrocostaleal-893-284529 14 years ago

D. Sebastião the King of Portugal didn't died fighting Spain in the North of Africa lol he died fighting the Mouros of Mulay Mohammed of the North of Africa, Philip was made King of Portugal because since D.Sebastião had no sons, he was the next in line along with 6 others and he won the battle for the throne. Other than that Portugal never lost territory to Spain, even won several battles badly outnumbered when they regained the independance few years later of the Filipes.

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[–] oldtobylotr 15 years ago

I agree they should have worded it a bit better..."most powerful empire in the world" is probably not right of the times...however, Spain did have many fingers in many different pies with all their exploits in the New World, and financially speaking, they were probably more "powerful" than the rest of Europe...that is until the fall of the Spanish Armada and the whole country going bankrupt..Perhaps at the time (I've not checked my facts here...) the spanish were more imperialistic/had more colonies than China? Still, better wording is needed to clarify.

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[–] anticaria 15 years ago

""""I agree they should have worded it a bit better..."most powerful empire in the world" is probably not right of the times...""""

the wording is accurate.. between 1580 and 1640, the spanish and portuguese empires were merged into one under philip II of spain, making spain the most powerful empire in the world.. it's not rocket science..

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[–] cal_wad 15 years ago

There is nothing wrong or inaccurate in saying that Spain was the world's most powerful empire in 1585. I agree that history does tend to show bias towards "Western Civilization", but the key word is empire. Spain's influence was worldwide and its colonies stretched across the globe, and no Asian country could make such a claim. China, possibly, may have been as powerful of a country when compared to Spain itself. As for empires, Spain was the number one power in the world at the time reaching its zenith in the late 1500's though destined for rapid decline.

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[–] richimorton 15 years ago

To the OP - your wrong . The Spanish were global . Hence on that basis alone they were the most powerful empire on Earth because they covered it dummy . After that it was the British . Also (and i have done my research already) the first civilizations were in the near East , not the far east (Pyramids anyone?)

There is also recent evidence of the Pharaohs being involved in global trade way before the Spanish , inspiring much of the central and south American architecture that can still be seen today.

The Chinese have been of little significance other than being the most populous nation for quite a while. And before you say it - the British have invented almost everything so don't bother with that old line.

That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .

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[–] adeherrpal 15 years ago

"There is also recent evidence of the Pharaohs being involved in global trade way before the Spanish , inspiring much of the central and south American architecture that can still be seen today "

Only the most ignorant person in the world may say something like that, there was no relation at all between the Mayans or aztects and the egyptians, they were from different times and ages. What have you smoked ?

"The British have invented almost everything so don't bother with that old line"

Stop smoking what you are smoking because it is affecting your reasoning.

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[–] richimorton 15 years ago

Just because i have advanced knowledge & you are still ignorant cannot be blamed on drugs . Cheap line . Learn .

That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .

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[–] enriquegoni 15 years ago

so your theory is that egyptians went on footing to china, they made ultra-advanced ships to cross the pacific, they teach pyramids and they return. Or maybe they made the voyage the other way round, footing to morocco, then build ships. It is a nonsense. Spanish were the most advanced of the world at the time. China may had 1 big bunch of soldiers, but they were unable to defeat musketers, dragoons. They were unable to make advanced ships. Spanish even conquered Taiwan which is now chinese. Chinese could do nothing to conquer it back (maybe they even didn't know their own geography so they didn't know about Taiwan at all). Portuguese conquered Macau, on mainland China. Chinese were clearly weak, they could not even defend their own territory. Thats rights, British invented everything, except most of the things.

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[–] richimorton 15 years ago

I can't work out when you are being sarcastic & when you are agreeing with me :

"Spanish were the most advanced of the world at the time." . . that is exactly what i said - maybe your English is not so good so i will explain again :

BEFORE the Spanish (way way before) the Egyptians were involved in GLOBAL TRADE. They did not walk everywhere , they sailed the Nile , down canals to the Red Sea & India , or through the Med & around West Africa to where there are powerful winds and sea currents to South America. You do not need modern ships to do this. Nearly every mummyfied Pharoah tested for drugs have large amounts of Opium , Tobacco and COCAINE in their hair & skin. Tobacco & Coca are only from South America at this time. Memories of Egyptian civilization inspired later South American ones.

What don't you understand ?

There is now also strong evidence of a PREVIOUS global civilization up to 15000 years ago - get your head round that !

That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] mrmuggles 15 years ago

Ever heard of Eurocentrism?
I don't know about Americans but here in Europe if a country was the most powerful amid European countries in the past history it is "felt" by right as most powerful of the World.

It's not a Hollywoodian mistake but a generic western attitude. However as a European I have no trouble when the film tells me that "Spain in 1585 was the most powerful empire in the world". Technically might not be true but it's true from our point of view and from many others

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[–] joe-armenta 15 years ago

And don't forget - Spain produces some way most excellent ham foods.

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[–] varyenka 14 years ago

You just gave me a good giggle--and made me want some chorizo. ;D

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[–] chillyacademic 14 years ago

Spain had colonies across the entire world including huge swathes of South, Central, and North America. Massive gold income, large and powerful navy, disciplined armies, and again this was all on a global scale.

China, while large and populous, was still a regional power and never tried to project itself globally.

So I really disagree with the assertion that China was the most powerful nation on Earth in 1585 because it just wasn't. This isn't eurocentrism, it's the fact really.
__________________________________________

"So fair, yet so cold"

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