MovieChat Forums > Transamerica (2006) Discussion > Why is it so important to undergo surger...

Why is it so important to undergo surgery ?


I'm straight and very open minded, I believe people have a God given right to be whoever they want to be and love whoever they want (as long as nobody is abused in the process of course) but I don't understand why undergoing a sex change operation is so important to some people. I'm not judging or saying they shouldn't, I just don't get it.

I mean, this is cosmetic surgery only, no surgery can turn a man into a woman or a woman into a man, biological sexual identity is hard wired inside human DNA and no surgery can turn testicles into ovaries and a scrotum into a womb... at the beginning of the movie Bree said something like "after my operation, not even a gynecologist would be able to tell the difference"... well,he/she is deluding herself, I'm sure a gynecologist among all people would be able to tell the difference in a split second !
I don't want to make it sound offensive, but why couldn't he accept his male body and "just" be gay if that's how he felt ?

Very interesting movie anyway :)

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To answer your title question, people have sex reassignment surgery because
their sexual identity (not sexuality) includes a sense of what are appropriate
primary and secondary sexual characteristics for themselves. Those that seek
medical/surgical relief generally have gotten to a point in their lives where
they can no longer make any pretense of comfort with their genitals.

You're obviously straight, and most likely a straight male, but from what
you've written you're not at all open-minded. In fact from what you've written
I'd assume you're heavily influenced by an orthodox religious background.

You make one bad assumption after another in your posting. The following are
facts:
99.999% of the people in this world have no idea what the makeup of their DNA
is, including the 23 chromosome pair (which may not be a pair at all). Certainly
gestational hormone exposure is as important if not more important to eventual
sex assignment than DNA.

99.5% of all people are assigned male or female at birth based on a cursory
visual examination of their external genitalia. (one in 200 births involve some
form of ambiguous genitalia (intersex condition).
http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/genitalia-ambiguous

Sexual identity may be hard wired in a person's DNA but as of yet no one can
prove that a factual statement--and there are a large number of folks that have
suffered from transsexualism that speak to the fact that a person's sexual
identity does not necessarily correspond to the sex they are assigned at birth.
A conservative estimate is that 1 in 2000 males in the US will seek sex
reassignment: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html

A woman doesn't need reproductive organs (ovaries and womb) to be a female. (Do
women that have hysterectomies cease to be women?)

Actually a gynecologist may not necessarily be able to easily tell the
difference between a woman with high quality vaginaplasty and a woman that has
undergone a complete hysterectomy:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hysterectomy/HQ00905
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRSlink.html

Many people may have been exclusively heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual
or asexual prior to SRS most often but not always feel attracted to the same
sex after. Post SRS, for people that transition from male to female, about
1/3 are exclusively attracted to males, 1/3 exlusively to females and another
1/3 bisexual or asexual.

Open minded people do not make assumptions based on prejudices masquerading as
religious dogma.

I ride the tempest, tame the waves...I will not resign myself to the usual lot of women

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"You're obviously straight, and most likely a straight male, but from what
you've written you're not at all open-minded. In fact from what you've written
I'd assume you're heavily influenced by an orthodox religious background."

"Open minded people do not make assumptions based on prejudices masquerading as religious dogma."

Well, yes I'm a straight male and I think that you are being hostile for no reason. If you are biting the hand of the (rare) people like me whose religious "dogma" is to tell you that it's your inalienable right to be whoever you want to be, including a transsexual, then it seems to me that you are the one being close minded and unable to accept people who aren't like you.

I must confess I don't care enough about the issue to try to challenge your own assumptions in detail but I don't really see 1/2000 of the U.S male population seeking sex reassignment for example.

Thanks for taking the time to reply anyway :)

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It's great that you feel we have the right to be ourselves- but youre being rude, gyuul. Your handle is from the start- Let's see, what have we here? GYUUL, or translate "Guy You, you El" El of course is the Spanish indicator of a man, and a lot of us now speak Spanish and get your drift, and as I said it's rude.

The truth is, for me at least- it's all more treal than a lot of people think or want to believe- I personally believe it will affect my destiny in lives after this, even though I may only be viewed by others a a transgendered individual, and somehow "not real" in their own perception and point of view.

I feel like a woman, I think like a woman- even so much to the point that I don't feel obligated to live any of the usual expectations (for I've ALWAYS had a problem with gender expectations)

You are also right about the numbers- it is a very very small percentage- and somehow inflated in scope and occurance, and importance to others by unfriendly television and media exposure otherwise- that's why films like this help- they at least humanize us again-

And personally, I don't care what gender you think I am- I don't ask anything from anyone, but some basic human respect- I don't demand that you address me as Maam or any other female term. Just don't go out of your way to call me "sir" or keep changing pronouns on me (is it that much trouble to at least say "she" instead of "he"- My God, we are people who endure hearing ourselves called "it" now and then!"

I'm not asking anyone to have sex with me, or trying to change their own sexuality otherwise. It's all about our own internal identity- it's not as much about sex. It's an identity problem, that other people could never understand without having it. Our lives are generally already ruled by the fact that we are somehow different, and plugged into a bracket or cartoon, no matter what we are like otherwise, and no matter what our talents and skills and contributions we could make otherwise-

People see this TG thing first, and already far too many can't get past it. Please just give us a breal gy-u

God in heaven, God above, be a God of truth and love

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OK, I think I understand a little better, thanks for your reply :)

I didn't mean to be rude with the pronouns. Out of curiosity btw, if a man undergoes surgery to become a woman, is she still legally a man or not as far as the U.S government is concerned ?...would it be for example legal for that person to marry a man in all States ?
... and you are looking WAY too much into my username ! :p... I have been using it for years and if you must know it's loosely based on my real name, there is no hidden msessage in it ;)

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After someone transitions to the opposite sex they are legally that sex. Of course they have to change their personal documents (driver's license, birth certificate etc.) to state that they are their new sex.

I hope this answers your question.

And yes they can legally marry a man in all states. Even Massachusetts.

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No. Trans cannot change their legal documents, such as license and birth certificate. To the best of my knowledge, that is still a bone of contention within the community and something being strived for. I understand why this can be complex as given current standards, the "birth" sexual assignment is what it is. What changes is the "adult" -- not how the person was born and assigned a sex. I also understand it is not uncommon for sexual assignment to be perhaps inappropriate, or inaccurate. However, currently it remains the legal documentation of a child's birth at the time of their birth.

______________________________________
Sic vis pacem para bellum.

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Bliss and HolleyVolley

I'm gay but I have to side with Gyuuy on this occasion.

You're right, he was ignorant of what it means to be transgendered, but the only way to battle ignorance is by asking questions and this is what he did. He will never know what it's like to be gay anymore than I know what it's like to be straight or transgendered. Because as much as we like to play down the importance of sexuality and gender identity in your character but it is definitely a catalyst for the many things that shape who we are. Even I have to admit I'm not too worldy about the actual biological process of the sex change operation! But I don't need to, anymore than I need to know how a heart transplant works.

So Gyuul asked an honest question, admitting his ignorance ('I don't get it!'), I saw no condemnation, only perplexity and he was greeted with hostile accusations of being bigoted and small-minded. The only reason I can think of for this hostility is that you've constantly had to justify your own existance to people that your react harshly to those who question your values.

Gyuug. Thank you for your question, hopefully it will help others who wonder the same thing. Holly and Bliss, chill slighty, be glad that someone from 'the Religious Right' (sorry for that!) WANTS to understand instead of condemning you outright.

Chill and live your lives in peace...

P.S> I still need to watch this film, my flatmate took it back to the rental shop before I had a chance to watch it! :(

'Don't threaten me with a dead SAG member'

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I suggest you re-read the second paragraph of gyuuy's original post... in that
paragraph he makes sweeping statements assuming them to be fact. His second
paragraph was filled with the talking points of the Christian Taliban. The language he used could have been lifted directly from the NARTh website:
http://www.narth.com/docs/transgendered.html

Here is another article that further discusses the language used to marginalize:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_2000_August_29/ai_64698451

I ride the tempest, tame the waves...I will not resign myself to the usual lot of women

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I merely stated the obvious : no matter how much you want to believe otherwise (and you certainly have a right to do so !) surgery/medication cannot turn a biological man into a biological woman or the opposite. Then I added my own opinion which is that I think that maybe it would be a better idea for all people to start by accepting themselves and their own body as it is... but you can also choose to undergo surgery, that's perfectly ok with me. As long as you don't think everybody should somehow be a transsexual, I'm sure we can agree to disagree :)

...and about all your unfounded accusations and insults toward me, someone said :
" Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
I guess now that I have dared quoting the Bible, I'm a real "Christian Taliban", lol ;)

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The truth is you weren't so much asking a question... rather you were trying
to make a point and substantiating it with own personal values.. . I don't mind
you guiding you life based on superstition, just don't interfere in other folks.
I'm guessing you haven't bothered to read any of the web references I've offered.
Biological sex assignment is based on a visual examination of the genitals and
despite your claim I know of no juristiction on earth that demands genetic testing
as a requirement for sex assignment. There are a large number of juristiction in
the world where having hormonal and surgical reassignment establishes legal sex
reassignment. YOu probabably wouldn't be interested in the following but others
may be...
Prior to the industrial revolution there was no "biological" sex assignment in
fact it is argued that prior to the Industrial revolution there was only the
concept of a single sex assignment... see the following essay which discusses
the issue and argues counter to the concept which as it has been presented in Thomas Laqueur's book
"Making Sex: Body and Gender From the Greeks to Freud"
http://fs.uno.edu/asoble/pages/metap.htm


I ride the tempest, tame the waves...I will not resign myself to the usual lot of women

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"I'm guessing you haven't bothered to read any of the web references I've offered"
I have read a few, then I got bored... when it comes to science-fiction/comedy I prefer u.f.o related stuff :)

I was asking a question : I watched the movie and liked it and I was honestly curious to know why surgery was so important to some people while to me it seems only to be a futile attempt to *look* like someone you aren't and can never be (in my opinion)... far from me the idea of interfering in anyone's life. I really don't care enough to tell you the truth and like I said earlier I believe you have the right to live your life in any way you want.

...anyway, I'll leave you alone with your delusions and bad manners, I'm not interested anymore ;)

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I knew you'd come back on here and deny the handle you use was in any way related to the topic- but it sure is coincidental isn't it?

"Guy you, you el"-

seems to me to match EXACTLY what the thread is about anyway- And I don't care about the thread, or your comments- you certainly have a right to your opinion and the right to express it here.

But I've been at this for some time- living as a woman since '84 and post-op since '86- and one of the most irritating aspects of it IS the constant trash-talking, and behavior that Jerry Springer gave the name "diss" to, as well as making it an all-too popular thing. The practioners of it inevitably think they are somehow being cutesy cute, and generally seem to be performing for others to be amused by the tediously repetitious kinds of insult- so perhaps we ARE a little bit sensitive to this kind of thing-

And if you spend anytime around this board, you can often see other usernames that are somehow offensive and trash talking nonsense, including some that at times express very personal knowledge about an individuals life (i.e. me),

which while you will probably be quick to call me paranoid, only goes to show me, and others who may eventually experience such growing predudices, that there are some who want to turn this cyber space and cell phone connected world into some kind of esoteric amusement park , rivaling any science fiction, and which is certainly NOT any form of comedy. It's not quite BIG BROTHER, but more like "Beavis and Butthead have new toys",

and when in fact, this is a very dangerous world we live in, where not only natural disasters occur, but also the potential for thousands, and even millions of lives to be taken or ruined in a split second.

It is easy to form a negative opinion of people like us after years of Jerry, and other horrendous characterizations, but we on the other hand have to live with this constantly: while others can only express their "righteous rage" against us when they rarely encounter the small numbers we are, we go through our lives moving from one set of people anxious to act out their own Jerry fantasies to the next individual or group anxious to do the same.

Yes, it gets tiresome, and yes we get sensitive to it. From my own point of view, it has never made the slightest sense that something so insignificant as one's gender, and if one hAS a penis or doesnt have a penis can make ALL the difference in the world somehow to someone, all the way into downright murderous intent and behaviour

We have an identity problem and are labled with a stigma, but it is in fact others who can make such sweeping judgements based on something like this that have more of a genuine socialization problem

God in heaven, God above, be a God of truth and love

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Why are so many people here offended by gyuuyl's original question? Being a straight male (which he can't help either), he was just understandably in the dark about the mindset of a homosexual or transexual person. That's why he asked the question in the first place. We can only demand respect from straight folk, which I believe gyuuyl has shown. We can't exspect them to understand without someone explaining it first, a little ignorance does not translate into scorn of homosexual or transexual culture.

Gyuuyl, I don't exactly know much about the transexual community or the actual surgical procedures either. I can give you my opinion as someone who really enjoyed this movie and deeply empathised with the characters though. It seems that Bree's issues are more about gender than sexuality. The life and expectations of a gay man and a straight woman are very different. Gay men aren't neccessarily sissies, a gay male is just as likely to behave in exactly the same manner as a stereotypical straight guy except that he loves men.

Its true that change should come from within and not from a cosmetic procedure, but being able to be recognised as a woman was a reasonable part of Bree's desire for her own identity. Its only natural for her to want to be treated like a lady. No matter how strong one's mental identity is, I would think having a penis would present as least a level of uneasiness.

Bree already knows she likes men, but she has a problem being one herself (she hates her penis). Look at the level of pleasantry she maintains in her normal speech throughout the movie, that level of gentleness is clearly a feminine trait and is a strong part of who she is. Apart from being a transgender, Bree appears to be a fairly conservative person. She lives in a rural town and is shocked (though eventually accepting) by Toby's fast track drug use and aspirations of working in the pornography industry. Though conservative gay living is possible, I think Bree is far more comfortable living as a typical woman.

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I've begun to notice that whenever a person feels the need to start their sentence with "I'm open-minded.." it generally means that they are not. If you were, you wouldn't feel the need to preface your non-open-minded thoughts with such a disclaimer. You wouldn't need to state the obvious. I don't preface all of my sentences with obvious statements like "I'm a female" or something.

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Of course the post was offensive; he wasn't asking a question, he was giving us his own opinion, already convinced he was right. If he really wanted to know more on the subject, he wouldn't have come looking for it on the message board for a movie, he would've gone to wikipedia or some other site that actually has real answers and not the usually ridiculous views of people who feel the urge to share even the dumbest of their opinions on everything under the sun, like the world would stop turning if we didn't hear them out.

And to say that a transgendered person can just accept his male body and just be "gay" shows not only complete ignorance on the subject, but lamentable and highly offensive insensitivity.

And no, I'm neither gay nor transgendered and while I don't go around telling people how open-minded I am, I would never go on a board and start giving people my opinions about this and that, without real knowledge on the subject and without caring who I'm hurting in the process or maybe doing it exactly because I want to hurt them.

But of course, the Internet has long since become a true emotional dunghill where everybody comes to happily add their own little bit of garbage, hoping this will make them less of a failure in the real world.

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Honestly, thats pretty paranoid thinking about his username.

Goo Goo G'Joob

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In my sex ed class in college we once had a post op MtF transexual come in to speak to the class. She gave us a packet in which she explained to a person without any gender issues what it would be like to be transsexual. She asked everyone to do a visualization exercise. So for the poster who said they could understand what it is like maybe try this visualization(vice versa for women).

First imagine you go to bed tonight as a male completely comfortable in your gender identity. If you have a woman you are sexually attracted to picture your attraction to that person as you go to sleep. Then picture the next morning you wake up as female. You now have a feminine voice, softer skin, smaller muscles, breasts and a vagina. You have fully functioning female sex organs meaning you will menstruate and can get pregnant and someday will go through menopause. In your closet and drawers instead of pants, suits and shoes you find blouses, dresses, skirts, high heels, bras and pantyhose. All your IDs, photos, birth certificates and other personal records indicate you are female and have always been female. Your mind is still male and you still regard yourself as male but physically are clearly female and regarded by others as such. To say you are male causes a negative reaction from others who view you as mentally ill or a freak. In order to become male will require going through extensive pyschological testing and you will have to live for a year or two as a female trying to prove you are capable of living the male role successfully before being given permission to get surgery. You will need hormone treatments and extensive surgery costing thousands of dollars. That is what transsexuals face along with much discrimination and often violence. You will have to learn to try and pass in your new sex role which you felt you should be naturally.

Should you chose not to get the surgery you will have to live the rest of your life as female. Others will regard you as female, you will be treated as such and be relegated to use the women's restrooms*, locker rooms etc. You will never be regarded as just one of the guys. Others will perceive you as female including men who will regard you as a sex object. You will never again have sex as a man. If you remain attracted to females you will be regarded as a lesbian and deal with the issues that come with that as well as issues straight women must deal with living as women in a man's world. You will live like this for the rest of your life. Would you be comfortable with that?

* Which also means you'd have to pee sitting and will probably notice the big difference in the length of the lines to the ladies room vs mens, i.e. none vs very long! Just a little toilet humour there ;).

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I was preop for a number of years and finally had surgery last fall. For a long time I used all the rationalizations to avoid getting the surgery (ie, I'll still have male chromosomes, no ovaries, etc.) Yet now when I go to the Womens' locker room in my Health Club, it feels so wonderful to blend in. When I'm in the sauna or steam room with two or three other women, they don't know I haven't ovaries, but they would certainly notice "you know what." There are many other reasons, of course, but this is just one example of postop comfort with regard to social acceptance.

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I'm glad your found comfort and acceptence in your new sex role. It's true ovaries don't determine your gender. A woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman afterall, well unless you view things like Mr/Ms. Garrison :D.

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Ugh, Mr/Mrs Garrison is one of the few things about South Park I utterly hate. Matt and Trey are so much smarter than that, I'm disappointed they did what they did. There are so many much more worthy things to lambaste.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin.

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I love this post. :) I too said I thought it would be like waking up a different gender. I'm not transexual, I'm hetero, but that's what I imagined it would be like.


www.forums.delphiforums.com/DexterPsych/start

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That ignores the lifetime of socialising as a gender you would have had before the transformation. Of course, the fact that many trans people, after being socialised as their gender, still identify so strongly as the opposite gender, shows that there is something biological to it.

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I know hollyvolley posted a long time ago, but could someone explain what the hell "Guy you, you el" means? It doesn't seem to be so much an ethnic slur as an incoherent, random phrase.

hollyvolley is either incredibly adept or incredibly misguided.

-What the hell do you know?
-I know it's pretty damn weird to eat people.

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I was wondering too, "Guy you, you el" ???

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In Spanish, "el" is the male pronoun, so in this context would mean "you (are a) he".


*´¨)
¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·´

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"I have read a few, then I got bored... when it comes to science-fiction/comedy I prefer u.f.o related stuff :)"

Aaaaaaand right there you f-ck-d up, and proved bliss right, that you are in fact a bigot judging transsexuals by your own narrow standards. You claimed to be asking questions with an open mind but when given the information to fully answer your questions you mock it and belittle it and shrug off a chance to learn more, and continue to insist we're delusional for believing what YOU clearly think is a crock.

You didn't "just ask a question" sir, you put the question out there after wrapping it in a thick layer of "I already believe what I believe and anything you tell me will just be silly delusional crap anyway, I really just want to know why the hell you're stupid enough to actually believe it".

"while to me it seems only to be a futile attempt to *look* like someone you aren't and can never be (in my opinion)"

And that further proves you don't really want to understand because you're already convinced you're right and we're insane, so you only asked to hear what silly nonsense we'd come up with. you're so typically Christian it's depressing.

That's how you come off and that's clearly how you meant it.

"I really don't care enough to tell you the truth and like I said earlier I believe you have the right to live your life in any way you want."

YOUR truth, not THE truth. And you believe we have the right to live however we want, as long as we accept your belief that we're delusional idiots.

"anyway, I'll leave you alone with your delusions and bad manners, I'm not interested anymore ;)"

The only delusions here are your Christian delusions that the world is so simple and so black and white, too deluded to accept all the shades of grey that surround you every day. As for bad manners, bliss was never rude to you, she just saw through your bs and wasn't about to suffer you gladly, as no fool ever should be suffered gladly. As for your last line? You never really WERE interested, you just wanted to pick a fight and pretend it was honest curiosity.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin.

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I just want to state, for the record, that, in the hands of a very capable surgeon (or surgeons, maybe one person can't perform all the different operations that gender correction surgery entails), they can make surgery *VERY* much like you want to, and as anatomically correct as you want to be when they perform gender reassignment surgery on you.


There are many, many, many cases where the surgery that has been done on both MtF and FtM trans people is an absolute testament to how well these surgeries can go and you could not tell the difference from a trans person to a cisgendered person of the same gender!!!

(cisgender is when you are/identify with the gender you were born as anatomically)


Make no mistake about it - these surgeries are done perfectly well. But for every skilled surgeon, there is always some surgeon out there who is a bit of a hack out there, or no where near the top of their field, so the surgery doesn't go so great, so the people who they operate on are left feeling very *beep* in life. Do a little searching online and see for yourself how well these surgeries can turn out for the people who seek them :)

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I'm replying years late, literally, so I don't know if you'll ever see this, but... first, I don't think you were being bigoted at all, and I think that if transgenders want people to "get it," they will need to be patient with those of us for whom this entire dilemma is totally foreign. I think you've been very open minded and patient gyuuyl. Ignorant, maybe, but aren't we all when we have absolutely no clue about someone else's experience. How could you be otherwise? That word sounds bad, but it's not said as an insult. :)

Second, I think you make the mistake of believing that genitals are what determine gender. If they chopped off your penis, would you suddenly be walking and talking like a woman? Of course not, as you said yourself. To understand transgenders, you have to imagine yourself waking up tomorrow with a vagina, boobs and long hair. Don't you think you'd feel uncomfortable carrying boobs around? Wouldn't they feel unnatural? Wouldn't you cut your hair? These people feel desperately uncomfortable with what they've got and want it off (or on, in the case of females). Now that this is possible, why should they *have* to accept otherwise?

I think the major misunderstanding here is a common one--transgenders don't consider themselves gay. They feel in the depths of their souls that they were born into the wrong body--hormonally, they may have been developing as one gender, and then this could have changed, but the result is that only their genitals changed, while all the other characteristics and feelings that go with one gender were still there.

As an aside, some people are born with a penis, a uterus and ovaries. What gender are they, do you think? Parents and doctors used to decide for them. Now, they are waiting to let these children reach puberty and decide for themselves.

There's a true story about a boy who had his penis burned off accidentally at his circumcision. The doctors and parents decided to "make him a girl," by cutting his penis off, doing extensive surgery to give him girl parts, and giving him hormones. Success: He looked entirely like a girl, and knew nothing about the trauma in his infancy, but he felt in the depths of his soul that he was a boy. He tried to pee standing up, he watched baseball. He enjoyed tag with boys and hated playing dolls with girls. He suffered tremendously, and when he was a teenager, told his parents he wanted a sex change. HELLO. The truth came out... and he wasn't angry, but relieved. Overjoyed. To find out he wasn't crazy... he really WAS a boy. They stopped the hormone treatments and got him his surgery. Now, in this case, the "mistake" happened after birth, was made by a doctor and had witnesses, so everyone could tell him he was right, he was a boy. But for most transgenders, the biological evidence would be expensive and perhaps impossible to cultivate or understand, but that doesn't make their experiences any less real than this boy's.


www.forums.delphiforums.com/DexterPsych/start

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"He tried to pee standing up, he watched baseball. He enjoyed tag with boys and hated playing dolls with girls"


Just because someone likes baseball and hanging with guys doesnt have anything to do with gender. Girls like these things all the time and are told not to pursue them, and girls can also pee standing up, pretty sure there isnt a girl in the world who hasnt done this. Im a girl, have never wanted to be a guy, and when i was a kid i hated dolls, loved sports, hung out with guys because girls were encouraged to act a certain way that i didnt like, my mother let me be who i wanted to be and didnt set gender boundaries especially for things as trivial as dolls and sports. These things should be enjoyed by any kid or anyone of any gender. And boys actually do like playing with dolls so not sure where youre coming from on that one. Most of the ones ive seen are told to put them down though, as if playing with a doll is going to make their kid homosexual or something, oh no the horror!

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Do you understand the context here? He felt in the depths of his soul like a boy, not like a tom boy, not like a girl who liked some "traditionally" boy things, but like a BOY, and in his case, it was because he was born a boy. His docs had botched his circumcision and raised him pretending he was a girl. The point being, a person IS what they are in the depths of their soul... physical or social or cultural expectations for them to be something different cannot change that. If they are a hetero boy, then that's what they are. A homosexual boy, then that's what they are, and so on.

By the same token, giving a boy who is, in his soul, heterosexual, a doll to play with will not make him homosexual... my point exactly. Nor with trying to make a child "not gay" work if that is their persuasion.

This family gave an excellent example of how a person's true gender and sexual identity cannot be changed no matter how hard you try. Not genuinely anyway.

>"He tried to pee standing up, he watched baseball. He enjoyed tag with boys and hated playing dolls with girls"


Just because someone likes baseball and hanging with guys doesnt have anything to do with gender. Girls like these things all the time and are told not to pursue them, and girls can also pee standing up, pretty sure there isnt a girl in the world who hasnt done this. Im a girl, have never wanted to be a guy, and when i was a kid i hated dolls, loved sports, hung out with guys because girls were encouraged to act a certain way that i didnt like, my mother let me be who i wanted to be and didnt set gender boundaries especially for things as trivial as dolls and sports. These things should be enjoyed by any kid or anyone of any gender. And boys actually do like playing with dolls so not sure where youre coming from on that one. Most of the ones ive seen are told to put them down though, as if playing with a doll is going to make their kid homosexual or something, oh no the horror!


http://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanat ion-of-the-end/

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If you read the post correctly youll see i was referring only to the quote directly above the post and nothing else. Sports, dolls hanging out with a certain gender etc are not indicators that anythings wrong, in this case it was but for most people who are told not to play with certain things they are just girls who want to play football or boys playing with dolls

"By the same token, giving a boy who is, in his soul, heterosexual, a doll to play with will not make him homosexual... my point exactly. Nor with trying to make a child "not gay" work if that is their persuasion"

Yes and once again read the post correctly and youve basically repeated what ive said, thank you for wasting your time as well as mine

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I realise that this is many years after your original post, but I am going to aim for a reply anyway....


First of all, i *DO* commend you for asking these questions and wanting to know better. I am a gay guy, and once upon a time I "didn't get it" either. I always thought "If you're gay, and want to be with a guy, why would you want to turn yourself into a girl? The men who found you attractive as a man would not find you attractive as a girl anymore!"

(and vice versa for those who are born women but become men)

What you need to know, and realise is, is that who YOU ARE and who you are ATTRACTED TO are completely different things. Have you ever noticed that we don't have sexual feelings for anyone at all, whether we are gay, straight or bi, until we hit puberty? Which is usually the ages of 10 and up (some start early, some start later....)

Well, we just *KNOW* that we are boys and girls LONG before that. Me and you, we've always known we were boys. And girls just always know that they are girls, right? This is what we know as our gender... it is what gender we realise we are. It's easier for us because we are what we look like. With Trans people, it's exactly the same... at the age of 2 or 3, we just start doing things that we like and want to do - "boyish" or "girly" things. Only sometimes it is a person who is biologically a girl who takes on all boy things, and realises that they are, and feel like they are and always meant to be a boy --- and in the same way, a person who is biologically a boy comes to realise that they are female, and feel like that's the way it's always meant to be. Trans people often feel like they were born with the wrong set of genitals and wonder why they have to endure what they have been given and be raised and treated in ways that they don't identify with (although their parents/people raising them usually don't know this until much later in a kids life).

THIS IS LONG BEFORE THEY (OR WE) ARE EVER EVEN ATTRACTED TO SOMEBODY.
(it is also completely different to a girl who is simply just a tomboy or a boy who feminine but still feels like, and would say he is, a boy)

In fact, once we start becomeing attracted to people, our lives just become confusing. Yes, yours and mine, but most especially trans kids who start having feelings for someone. You see, a kid who was born male (and essentially is male in all respects, male at this point) yet has thought of themselves to be a girl, would feel straight and normal when they have feelings for another boy.

And at some points in their life now, they will become confused, and think maybe they are just a boy, and that they are not a girl as they always felt they were, and think "maybe I'm just a gay boy instead" (and also always vice versa for the girls as well) so they go through a phase of questioning both what gender they are, AND what gender they are (or are meant) to be attracted to.


Usually it's long after a person's high school years, and first loves (or first crushes) are long over when they realise that they are, still, after all this time, the gender that they always thought they were. Just put all questions about WHO YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO aside, and ask youself - who are you? Do you feel like a man? Or do you feel like a woman? Do you feel like you are right now, as you were always meant to be?

That's what it comes down to. It's got nothing to do with attraction. If Bree were a real person from this movie, she would tell you she is nothing but a straight woman. She may not necessarily be straight, because that can change when you grow up in a world were you have to ask yourself constantly all these hard questions, but most trans people see themselves as straight. The act of being with someone of your "opposite gender" before surgery would technically look like, and be literally be a case of two people with the same genitals "being together" but to them, inside their head, it would be "straight sex". Sure, it clearly isn't - but it's all they have to work with AT THIS POINT (when they are pre-op).

That why they do want the operation.



HOWEVER ----- your very original question - why is it so important to undergo surgery, is a good question too. The whole point of Bree having a therapist who needs to okay Bree's surgery before she has is, is to make sure she really wants, and needs to have surgery. There are some trans people, who eventually decide *beep* IT!" and say that IT'S GOOD ENOUGH for them to simply identify with being a woman or a man, and transform the rest of themselves to whatever extent that they want to, without having to go that final step and get corrective surgery, as it's called. It's called corrective surgery because the surgeons correct trans people up to be the gender on the outside as they have always felt that they are on the inside. Some trans people realise, with counselling, that they don't want to go all the way and get something done that they may regret later.

_____________________


I say all of this from what I know from many long conversations in the past with two trans friends that I have (both guys, their names are Giles and Ed) which makes me know what I know now. I don't mean to speak for any of the trans people here, but I hope what I do say is quite true of all of them and they feel this accurately, or as accurately as I can possibly put it, answers your question. They too had to have AT LEAST TWO YEARS of extensive counselling and therapy sessions to make sure that they really are ready to have these quite major surgeries done. They do this to make sure that the patients really want it, and they don't accidentally give an operation to someone who just decided overnight that they wanted it done (and apparently these sessions were conducted with always 2 psychologists/therapists in the room at once). After the two years was up for Giles, the psychologists were convinced that he was doing it for the right reasons, and was ready for the surgery, so they approved him getting a mastectomy (removal of his boobs). After this, he was able to legally change his gender on his birth certificate and other legal documents (he hasn't had any work done downstairs yet) and go on to marry his girlfriend (now his wife). That's the system in Australia... I can't speak for anywhere else.

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dude don't be such a knob - you think because he's religious and male and naive to the situation he's a biggot - he's asking why because he doesn't understand and you're being a dick.

My teenage ansgt has a body count

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You broke it down brilliantly. My answer pales in comparison. And you summed up everything I thought about the issue with evidence to boot. Good job.

You pwned that guy :D

A FANTASTIC vid about an actor playing a TRANSVESTITE!:
http://www.trikeaband.com

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So gyuuyl if a blind person has a cornea transplant are they still blind. (I know this is a little bit of a far reach from a sex change)

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My God, can’t dude just ask ya’ll a damn question about what/why ya’ll want what ya’ll want between ya’ll’s legs? My God, I mean how many of ya’ll are offended by the fact that I typed the name “God” with a capital “G?” Maybe there’s something in my grammar that is offensive, or maybe even indicative? ;) Joking, ya’ll ;)

And for what it’s worth; it would take many beers and several shots, but I’d do Bree. And for what else its worth, that occurred to me before I even knew that Bree is played by an actual woman, playing a man trying to be a woman.

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So like....that one dude was talking about gender being decided at birth by looking at the genitals? I'm kinda confused, if the doctor doesn't look at the genitals the baby has no gender and can be anything? Isn't there like a chromosome the female is missing? And ummm don't they have phaelopeon tubes and cervix's, etc... the tools to make baby's?? Can trans-gender people get that stuff? Possibly on ebay, but good luck with the instructions.

So there may not be a standard answer to the meaning of life, but people like trans-sexual's and gay's have to rely on other resources for procreation of the species, meaning their lifestyle bears no importance on the continuance of humanity! And that seems like a pretty sweet goal to work for. I'm not trying to be a dick-salad, but it makes sense to me.

I mean come on people, women are just genetically different! Watch the Olympics, look at their body composition, physically they will always be different!!!! That'd be like me growing up thinking I was a pilot, and believing it was my destiny and that was who I was supposed to be, my identity. But I'm color blind, or not tall enough, so I chase my dream, and end up crashing a plane and killing a bunch of people, that's un-acceptable.

Physically altering your body to mask some sort of f-d up identity crisis is retarded. And I hope everyone of you that are trans-sexual's and homosexual's aren't religious, because getting into the topic of hypocrisy related to how your "God" made you is an entirely different beast. Furthermore, I can't see two gay dudes going to church on a Sunday, and then playing tummy sticks and B'ing their W's all over the place, that just doesn't make sense on any level.

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There have been quite a number of developments in the world since Adam and Eve bit the apple.
Are IPhones, IPods, Computers, natural? Do they grow on trees? Does electrical wiring or hydraulics come with nature? Then go to sleep when the sun sets, or don't use the toilet. Are children born as a result of new reproductive methods not real children?
If people feel that they would be happy with secondary sex characteristics of the opposite gender, and medical science and endocrinology can suppy it, why should they be deprived of it? Very few Trans people consider themselves genetic men or women. They know they are making the best of a difficult situation in order to find comfort and peace in their lives.

Get out of the cave, dude. A lot's happened since the days of Fred Flintstone.

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at least in my cave I don't have transgender freaks thinking they can open checking accounts.

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Would you call a baby born with club feet a freak? or how about
a child born with a cleft pallet? these conditions are operable
and considered some of natures mistakes, well so are transgendered people
born with female minds in a male body- this operation lets the body
fit the mind...

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GAY

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First off, thanks for asking politely! So many people get so mean when they don't understand something.

There is a simple answer to this question. I'm assuming you are a male (sorry if I am wrong). Imagine growing up your whole life feeling like a male. However, you didn't have a penis and eventually you started growing breasts. Although it's only cosmetic, SRS (Sexual reassignment surgury) makes you as close as possible to how you feel inside, on the outside.

In Brie's case, she has always felt like a women on the inside, but having a penis was a constant reminder that she was in the wrong body. There have been cases of male to female transexual children attempting to cut their penis off because of how disgusted they are by it.

Transexuals already feel like their ideal gender on the inside, surgery completed the transformation on the outside.

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If you have a vagina, no matter how it got there, you're a woman. If you have a d*ck, man-made or not, you're a man. End of story. And not only are these crazy rantings about trans gendered people wrong, but many of them are also sexist (i.e. assigning "roles" to genders). Wake up. It's 2008.

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So what if someone has both?

Laura S

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I am a straight female and about as heterosexual as you can get but I'm guessing it has to do with sex.

Bree identifies as a straight woman attracted to men and cannot be with straight men and have sex with them as a woman unless she has female sexual organs.

She can't have somewhat normal relationships unless she has the surgery.

Also, she just plain identifies as a woman. Doesn't want a penis and testicles anymore than I would.

stopjohnofgod.blogspot.com

stopsylvia.com

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[deleted]

Freaks? No actually they are not. They are people like everyone else.

You must have a very depressing life if you think transgender people are freaks.

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Most folk who aren't trans have a hard time understanding the motivations around both gender transition and sex reassignment surgery. And it's not some straight guys who have this problem, some feminists get it wrong too. In fact, more often or not, not having such an understanding, such folk tend to make any number of unsupported assumptions, and those assumptions say more about that person than they do about trans people, gender transition or surgery.

The desire to be the gender that a trans person believes themselves to be is really in two different parts - a social and a physical part. The social tends to relate to how they fit into society and relate to other people. The physical is all about body image and the difference between what is initially present and what "ought" to be there. While these two are connected, they're not the same. This is why some transgender people transition but don't have the surgery, and others do.

As to "why couldn't he accept his male body and "just" be gay if that's how he felt?", well where in the film does the main character say or express that they feel 'gay'? Being gay is a way of being a man, and she didn't identify as a man, did she? So what we have here is you definition of what gay is, which is presumably a) male and b) not straight. But where did you get this from - from personal contact/experience, or is it just some assumption that's never been questioned?

When you say 'man' and 'woman', you probably mean 'male' and 'female' and there is a difference. Man and Woman are social roles that we assume males and females will assume, just as we assume that someone is male/female from their appearance and behaviour. But this is where it all falls down. There aren't just male and female only - there is a range of inter-sexed conditions as well, and some of those conditions can't be immediately diagnosed or noticed at birth (and the obvious ones tend to be minimised by corrective surgery). Thing is, that both male and female templates (XY and XX chromosomes) aren't "opposites" but cut from the same source - it's only after a certain number of weeks in the womb that sex differences become apparent.

So when you say "no surgery can turn a man into a woman or a woman into a man" you are entirely correct. Rather, Bree's already done this by changing her appearance and how she relates in society. As far as reproductive ability goes, Bree's no longer directly able to reproduce. Then again, this applies to so many others in society as well, who either due to medical reasons (infertility etc) or social reasons (prison, celibacy etc) can't or don't reproduce. Does that make them any less men or women?

Laura S

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Hey I've got a pretty sweet life! So ummm, I didn't read most of your post, believe me I tried! But people who are in prison most likely deserve to be there, so yes, it does make them less of a person because they were deemed un-fit to live in society as a normal human being. Would you want serial killer's or rapists reproducing? I sure don't.

So if tranny's are all super sweet and "hooray for being yourself" why not make the lead of the movie a tranny? Oh I know why, because their disgusting.

Yikes, tranny's are just sad and gross, stop sticking up for them! sorry dude!

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"So ummm, I didn't read most of your post"

That's clear from your responce, which seems to be about something else entirely.

Laura S

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Hey I talked about prison! That was a clear response to what you had posted. I think it's almost time for a duel. Give me a couple minutes to gather up my things and we'll take this up a notch.

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TROLL
Laura S

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You may think you';re open-minded and not judging hon, but you're very wrong.

1) A GOOD srs result CAN fool a gynecologist unless a deep exam is given.

2) Sexual identity isn't physical, it's emotional and psychological. Bree was a woman inside, and wanted her body to match as closely as possible. No strs doesn't give ovaries or a uterus, but it DOES make the body look right, and feel more real to the afflicted person.

3) See 2, identity is psychological, so if Bree feels like a woman, why would she want to just live as a gay man? You're confusing identity with preference. Who you are inside, man or woman, has absolutely nothing to do with who you want to shag.

So SHE couldn't accept the male body and be gay because SHE wasn't a gay man, nor a man period. It's more than cosmetic surgery, it's corrective surgery.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin.

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[deleted]

Ah jerryseven, my current favorite bigot savant.

They don't cut it off. They turn it inside out.

Picture that for awhile.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin.

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[deleted]

I'm happy I could ruin a meal for you, but I'm not a sick *beep*. That's how the surgery is actually done bubbles.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain, and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin.

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I'm very sorry to say to U all, it's the standard of what makes a man, a MAN, and a woman, a WOMAN, there's wrong!!!

Because if U R born in a male body, but U R sure that U R a female, then I will say that U R a female, what ever genitals U R born with, and vica versa, U can today measure how many male, and how many female hormones and chromosome U have, and that's maybe a much better way to say who is who, because there are some male to female transsexuals who has completed the transformation to Female, but isn't much for the GR-/SR-surgery, because they still want to have the orgasms, and the surgery isn't quit there yet, where it all function a 100% when they are done with the surgery, and that's goes also the other way round, with female to male transsexuals, and if that's the case, then it's only about people's sex life, nothing to do with who they R "in real life", so why R the Government, the church and a some of the society against them?, and that's why I'm saying it have nothing to do with what genitals U have, it has to do with who U R in your mind, not in your pants/panties.....

And also most of what people think they think about this, are almost always clouded by there religion.....

"And I'm sorry about my bad English writing, but it's only my third language, and I'm not good at writing it, Beside my native language I've can a little of Swedish, English &-)

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So if I was born a man, yet psychologically thought I was a toaster pastry, I should go ahead and let modern science transform me into the best representation of a delicious toaster pastry because of some imbalanced dillusion in my brain? You are all *beep* crazy! Turning penis's outside in and vagina's inside out is just wrong! You can polish a turd, dress it up, even give it a name and purchase it a car, but it will always be a turd.

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[deleted]

One person's dilusion is another's reality. As long as no one is hurt, why do you care? Would you like to live in a world where people like you were in the minority and ridiculed? I didn't think so. Think outside the box.

Humans are not cattle that should incessantly follow arbitrary definitions of what they 'should' be. If one is lucky, at some point in life we realize that we alone should define who we are. Until that moment, no one is truly free.

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there are some male to female transsexuals who has completed the transformation to Female, but isn't much for the GR-/SR-surgery, because they still want to have the orgasms, and the surgery isn't quit there yet

Please educate yourself on this... pleeease! Almost everyone (Mtf) who went through the surgery could have orgasms!!! I guess it's about 95% of all Mtf who can have it. I'm talking about successful surgeries, not works of butchers. Personally i don't know about any post-op transsexual who would complain that they can't have an orgasm. lol. It's ridiculous... it's a psychological thing, those who can't have it have an internal problem, not physical. Lots of them can achieve in fact multiple various orgasms, not just traditional clitorial, but also vaginal. It's individual. We're not in the 90's anymore, these surgeries have pretty much advanced over the years.

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This maybe beating a dead horse. Though I haven't seen anything recent referenced in this. While Purrrple I agree with much of what you said there needs to be a break on the thought that it isn't physical.

First...this needs to be broken down on a level of society. With the invention of religion (I know that's going to be offensive to some...and I am actually sincerely apologetic for it) we created a system in which we are uncomfortable with saying "You know I don't really know...but I've looked at the information and I just think it's inconclusive as of yet." Meaning as a society when we look at something and don't really have an actual answer for it...we tend to simply come up with something or follow popular thought on the topic.

Secondly...transgender study dates back to the early 1900s...an Austrian philosopher, Otto Weiniger, published a book in 1903 "Sex and Character." This book as even recently been referred to as "the philosophical best seller of the century" and has had influence on Franz Kafka, James Joyce, D.H. Lawrence, Ludwig Wittgenstein, and many others.

In 1989 a book was published named "Brain Sex" which used a scientific process to study gender. It's an interesting read...and quite short. Though much of the information today is out of date. There is a similarity here that supports Weiniger's theory on gender. That gender itself is not black and white. Rather gender is a sliding scale in humanity. The book hypothesized there were at least 12 different human genders. Think of gender not so much as a set of naughty bits, but rather a sliding scale between masculine and feminine.

On chromosomes. The thought that XX and XY determine indefinitely the sex (meaning the naughty bits) of a person...is a sophomoric thought. There's plenty of people with the incorrect set out there walking around with the other body parts.

More and more these days we get links to genes actually being a causation. Like this 2008 article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm

Now that being said. Gender is separated from sex. Sex is merely considered a physical state these days...not as influential on ones person as it used to be thought. With gender being considered so variant...it comes to a common sense conclusion that some people would feel they are born with the wrong bits and want to change their physical representation to match their mental representation. Why is it such a hard concept for people to grasp that someone could simply be born the wrong sex? Birth defects happen on a daily basis...12 fingers...a tail...really is it that far of a stretch?

Oh and by the by. The first uterus transplant took place in 2002 in Saudi Arabia. It functioned properly for 99 days and then had to be removed. There's currently a hospital in New York planning to offer the transplant surgery.

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I feel sorry for them that they suffer from gender dysphoria and have serious mental issues. But they just need to accept there's nothing they can do about it and accept their body. At least they can be a gay man that goes around in drag, if they chop it off no one will want them, not gay men nor normal men. Best just to accept it and keep the piece and go wandering around the outback wearing female Brazilian Carnival outfits or dressing like Lady Gaga. Mutilating themselves with plastic surgery is even worse than what Michael Jackson did to himself.

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I clicked on your name to see if your other posts were similar to those in Big Love. ...

So, re this post... I admittedly don't know much about the physics involved here, but I've heard of more than one heterosexual man marrying a very sexy woman, who used to be a man. Don't they construct female parts for transgenders? I thought the removal of male parts was only half of it?


www.forums.delphiforums.com/DexterPsych/start

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What gave you the impression the trans are choosing "plastic surgery?" You do realize, don't you, that this is not merely a matter of altering a physical appearance for appearances sake? Nothing gets "chopped off" in a MtF. The genital tissues of men and women is very similar, the nerve endings are vast, and the vascularity is populous. Tissue is reassigned. If you are thinking of tissue being lopped off, take a close look at FGM. For the record, we circumcised females in the US up until the late 1970's. There are multiple forms of FGM, and one of them does involve "chopping off" the clitoris and labia and even sewing the young girl up save a tiny opening to permit fluids to seep out (ie: menstrual blood). Ignoring all the complications like, you know, death, much less loss of function, these young girls are surgically (I use that word broadly) altered and tissues "cut off" and resemble the barbie dolls we see. Comparing work like that to the cutting edge of MtF surgery now (Bless you Dr. Marcy), is ignorant.

This is not a matter of plastic surgery or wanting to "cut off" bits and pieces for appearances sake. Any "plastic surgery" that is done is to enhance the feminization process...not to create it. This is not as simple as you seem to think or imply. This isn't a case of vanity, it's about identity.

Perhaps this remains an issue you simply do not wish to inform yourself about.
______________________________________
Sic vis pacem para bellum.

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