Men are vile - North Country (2005) Discussion

[–] Isaac5855 18 years ago

The behavior of the majority of the men in this film is truly sickening. I was especially disgusted by that union meeting where that one guy yelled out for Josie to show them her tits, knowing that the girl's father was present. That was truly sickening. Her father's speech when he got up to have his daughter's back was awesome, brilliantly performed by Richard Jenkins, who should have received a supporting actor Oscar nomination for that scene alone.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] rphinks1 18 years ago

before anyone else freaks out the description says its a fictionalized account of the first sexual harrassment lawsuit. Unless you know what actually went on I wouldnt get so worked up about the hollywood movie.

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[–] brenda_hankins 18 years ago

This kind of thing happens all the time. I've seen it AND experienced it. It's not wonder there aren't a million other movies just like this one. So I suggest you don't get "so worked up" until you know your facts.

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[–] fileboy2002 18 years ago

I don't think the message of the film was that men are vile; the message is that sexism is vile.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] kosovo1389 18 years ago

"Its a problem inherent in the human brain, a built in obsolesece. Men are not intended to live into old age, women are.

Men are intended to die either on the hunt ( as for woolly mammoth ) or on the warpath. Civilization and modern society have artificially extended the life of men without extending the usefulness of men's brains.

I know there have been studies, but I cant find them, even with google. HOWEVER:

Everyone knows
that the brain is constantly dying,
that the brain sets like gelatin around 25,
that the best years of a man's life ( his glory days ) are 13-25,

Everyone knows some old man who simply has his "head up his ass" "

The adult brain (both male and female) finishes development up to the mid-twenties. As soon as the brain finalizes its development, it begins to atrophy.

Biologically speaking, men (and women) are intended to die a lot later than we are dying these days. Diverse factors such as unhealthy diets, toxic chemicals, stress, and war (to name a few) are the reason why we die sooner. Women on average have a sligthly higher life expectancy. A few years is not that big of a difference.

I find it humorous that you would say that our lives have been "artificially" lenghtened when the human body can live for much longer than people are living now. We're not artificially prolonging our lives. We're (some of us at least) learning how to take care of ourselves better.

Google is not exactly a scholarly database. I suggest using MEDLINE (PubMed) or PsychINFO. But wait, even Google should take you to these sites should such publications exist.

I have a quotation for you: "Statistics can be used to prove anything, 60% of all people know that." Think about why that is relevant to this argument.

The best years of someone's (both male and female) life depend on the person.

***************

Now to comment on the actual film. The treatment of the women in the film sickened me. It was revolting. I'm ashamed of my own ignorance in this case. I did not think that something as blatant as this could have hapened less than two decades ago. I'm not quite so naive to think that sexual harrasment did not take place recently or that it does not occurr now but what was portrayed in the film was beyond words. I felt like i was watching events that took place over a century ago.

I understand why nobody was willing to step forward. Whenever people form a large group it is easy for them to lose their personal identity. The group just leads them onward. This deindividuation is clearly dangerous and has led to many atrocious events in the past (i.e. the Holocaust). Those that acknowledge that the harassment is wrong usually experience what is called a "bystander effect" (to learn more about this you can look up articles regarding the Kitty Genovese murder in New York). Everybody thinks that somebody else will step up first.

The situation portrayed in the film is a lot more complex than two social psychological phenomena. But my point is that if anyone should find themselves in a situation where they can help another person, they should step up and help. Others will follow.

Even if you may normally consider them vile.

- It is the exception that confirms the rule -

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[–] ArchStanton1862 18 years ago

"Statistics can be used to prove anything, 60% of all people know that."

And of course 68% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

LOL

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[–] brenda_hankins 18 years ago

It's not just "a few years" difference. It's about 15 years longer on average. And you forgot to mention the biggest factor of why women live longer: lower testosterone. :) But this issue is still needing research.

I agree that it is no more "artificial" than simply a difference of the environment & behavioral habits in which we put ourselves in: either we choose to take care of ourselves or we choose not to.

Yes, using Google alone is not a sufficient source. None of that wikepedia stuff.

Yes, this same stuff still goes on in full force, trust me, I know. I believe small towns are more at risk for occupational violation of human rights.

I agree with you about group thinking. Finally someone on here that gets it. :)

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[–] keyboardplaya 18 years ago

I've seen the movie a bunch of times on HBO. Very great script and great actors and great lines. Even though this isn't the exact true story (it's inspired by one) I know how rare it is to find a historical film that actually has believable cinematography.

Anyway, I totally respect the feelings of women, and never even could of thought of half the stuff the men did to women in this movie. This goes beyond what most people would consider "A-OK" and all I can say is that it's unfortunate. But I hope you all realize that there will always be bad people, for everyone to deal with. I really hope that you don't merely come to the conclusion that all men are vile or sick. I very well have known (not very well, for obvious reasons) many guys who have a very twisted view on how to treat females, definitely nothing like this film, but still twisted nonetheless. As far as I know, it's the fault of the parents and peers (in which case, the parents should be capable of raising children who don't just follow the pressure of others).

However, it can only work against you to conclude that all men are sick. No matter what kind of opponent you have, it never pays to sink to their level. Equal rights are about equality. That means that instead of fighting against each other, we need to live together. I would assume that most men and women do live together peacefully in our society, seeing as how we're all alive and many people have successfully raised healthy families. But in all seriousness, though these tragic events do occur still in our time, we have come a long way and excluding the idiocy of some, the majority of American men try very hard to be good people, just as most women. A lot of men even go the extra mile in trying to understand the opposite sex, just as women do. I would hate to come across as someone who brags, but I would honestly do anything for my girlfriend (and hopefully, future wife) to keep her happy. You have no idea how badly my entire week is ruined if I make her upset in any way. I've cried most of those times uncontrollably and have done everything I could to cheer her up if I so much as said the wrong thing to her. A lot of times I get paranoid that I'm a bad boyfriend simply because I know I can always do more for her, and she's often the one that needs to convince me that I'm doing a good job. I guess I just want to do everything for her and give her everything she's ever wanted.

I know that not every guy is like that, but I do know that most of them are obsessed with you women to the point where they would do anything for you. Sadly, sometimes there are men who go too far and become mentally sick in their attempts to end their loneliness, but most of us want to be the perfect gentleman that you see in the movies. I can promise you that.

So hopefully this can serve the women in this thread as some kind of summation of the male species. Yes, there are bad men out there, just as there are bad women. But I honestly don't want you to think that we are all, or even most, like that, because I know all too well there is a lonely, innocent guy out there who sincerely just needs someone to love him. And there are others who only just want to be your friend.

I'll be happy to answer any other questions you have.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Isaac5855 18 years ago

Thanks for presenting the other side of this issue...everything you've said is absolutely correct.

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[–] jmhaber 18 years ago

I enjoyed the film and feel for the women who suffered in real-life. However, I always do get a little quesy anytime men are portrayed as barnyard animals in yet another film.

For another view on male-female issues and testimony that men also suffer huge amounts of discrimination as a result of sex roles, I recommend the book:

The Myth of Male Power: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex by men's movement writer and former NOW board member Warren Farrell.

For example--did you know that only males can be kidnapped, enslaved, and marched into death--it's called the military draft. Did you know that male genital mutilation is legal and accepted in the United States--it's called circumcision. Did you know that men also suffer from false accusations of rape (ala the Duke Lacrosse case) and sexual harrassment?

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] lwright61 18 years ago

Point 1: You can't possibly know that you've never had a false accusation of a sex crime.
Point 2: Even if we accept for the sake of argument that you haven't had a false accusation, that doesn't meant that the Duke case isn't one. It may very well be that the prosecutor in the case has a similar experience and attitude as you, which explains why he has persisted in the case despite the numerous alterations in the story that the plaintiff has put forth. Try letting the system work through it before passing judgment.

Back to the film:
It's important to remember a number of things about this film. No one can tell a story that took over ten years to unfold in two hours. I think the film actually does a very good job of showing growth in characters for the amount of time they have, in particular the father AND the mother, the son, and Francis Dormand's character. All go through their own ways of dealing with their perspective on the situation. To fully develop the complexities of social and individual issues involved in this case would produce something the length of "Roots."
So it has to be condensed and it inherently becomes more dramatic, which also happens to make for a better movie. I don't diminish the experiences of the women at all in saying this. The more dramatic moments, like the lunchbox or sweater scenes, and even more so the outright assaults, are terrible enough, but what can't be adequately portrayed in two hours is the constant, insidious tone and attitude that the women had to live with day in and day out for years. That can be just as wearing on the soul and that is what creates an atmosphere in which the more dramatic incidents can occur. These things don't happen very often in working environments where management makes it clear that they won't be tolerated. Because this is true, the law of the land addresses the working environment as well as specific incidents.

Don't forget that this issue cuts both ways. I'm a male and have had to bring the boorish and chauvinistic behavior of women in my workplace to the attention of the EEOC and management. The women were shocked. They thought that they had the right to behave badly because men do. They were wrong.

And in closing, here are some points to ponder:
"Whenever you point a finger at someone, at least three are pointing back at you."
"All that is required for Evil to prevail is for Good men to do nothing."
"Men are pigs, but women sleep with them." -kcpackrat

Th-th-th-th-that's all, Folks!

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[–] brenda_hankins 18 years ago

Not to generalize, but just a thought. What about how girls tend to be SUCH catty b****es? Girls tend to be mean to each other more so than guys - from my experience. Just take a walk in Walmart and count how many crappy glances you get from other females shopping. Guys don't seem to get as jealous of each other. :)

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[–] achtland 18 years ago

I once read an interesting statistic: Approximately 5 percent of sexual harassment suits are lodged against women. This doesn't sound like much, until you consider another statistic: Approximately 5 percent of executives are women.

Apparently, women sexually harass at about the same rate as men.

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[–] Crispin_Dry 18 years ago

It is a hugely sweeping generalization to say that men are vile. That's just man-hating, sexist rhetoric. I'm a woman and I know plenty of vile women as well as men... maybe more so, if I actually stopped to do the math. Some of the women is this film were weak, cowardly and sheepish, and suffered from major victim complexes. Josey and Glory were exceptions, but the others were all pretty messed-up.

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[–] brenda_hankins 18 years ago

LOL funny but you are misusing statistics. Sexual harrassment suits are not solely caused by executives.

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[–] brenda_hankins 18 years ago

Men weren't just "portrayed" this way in the film; it's still an issue that happens today in the US, trust me, and sometimes even worse than was shown in the film.

That's interesting that the book is from a NOW board member.

However, I have done A LOT of research on female genital mutilation (FGM) as well as male genital mutilation (MGM), and they are in NO WAY comparable. I don't have the studies right in front of me, but many women and their babies in northern Africa die during child birth due to FGM. I could go on & on about this. FGM often happens when the girl is 12 years old, and therefore she aquires more traumatic memories than a baby boy in the US could. Infections in FGM are WAY more common in FGM than in MGM, because the procedure is often performed by a nonmedical individual. Due to the anatomy of a female and the nature of the FGM procedure, there are far more complications that happen from FGM than MGM. For example, FGM often sows together the labia, which can obstruct certain functions (urine, blood), cause deep scarring, etc. And the vaginal canal is often made "tighter" for the man's pleasure. Also, cultures that practice FGM do so for far worse reasons: if a woman does not have FGM, she is often shut out of her community completely (hence the refugees) OR will simply find it impossible to find a spouse willing to accept a female who does not have FGM done. Compare this to the US, where if a man is not circumsized, he will have nearly no problem in his community nor with finding a mate. This is because FGM is done to ensure that a man's wife is a pure, clean virgin and to increase the man's pleasure. Therefore, since MGM is often not a HEALTH problem, I don't see the two as comparable.

It's unfortunate that a stereotype of males has caused some men to be falsely accused. However, being falsely accused of rape is far less common than how often rape actually occurs. 1/6 women and girls currently *report* being raped (Center for Disease Control and Prevention), and more than 60% of rape goes underreported. I know it's unfortunate that males get falsely accused, but this should not be used as a distraction from fixing the issue of rape.

As for the draft, that seems unfair - maybe it hasn't been ammended yet due to it not being an issue in recent years. Perhaps if the draft is completely NECESSARY again, woman without children to look after should be drafted along with the men.

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[–] Isaac5855 18 years ago

I know exactly what you mean...I work with a woman who is going through a very messy divorce right now and ever since it began, she has just lumped all men in the same category as her soon to be ex and every time she goes on a rant about him, it always starts with the phrase, "All men are..." and that really pisses me off. Just because you were treated badly by one man, it's not fair to just make broad, sweeping generalizations about all men.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Bundy1 18 years ago

Some men are vile and some women vile. But wether your a man or a woman, the truth is that men are generally more sexist then women, as history has proven.

And im only talking about the people who are sexist losers. Woman or man we're all the same, so they should just get over therselves.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] wildgunz 18 years ago

Women are genetically weaker in strength than men, that is why the draft would only pick men to goto war. It's ALWAYS been like this, with the exception of 1 or 2 societies where women fought alongside men.

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