Why did the old monk self-immolate? - Bom yeoreum gaeul gyeoul geurigo bom (2004) Discussion

[–] Lemoen 14 years ago

I think he did it because felt like he lived a meaningless and lonely life.

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[–] realityisbliss 12 years ago

That's nonsense! We are born into this world as equals and regardless of how we decide to live our lives is of no importance. His life would have been just as meaningful or in your case "meaningless" as your own.

On a side note, I believe he did it because he could feel he was dying and that he had nothing else to accomplish in that life. As you could see he started to develop inner powers such as Buddha had. He was enlightened and didn't need anymore time in that life cycle. Where he goes next, no one knows... Just my opinion of course.

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[–] lexagregor 13 years ago

The monk lived his life for others, not for himself. Settling the other man's heart after the murder was his final mission. After the other man was taken away, there was nothing left for him to do. I don't mean in a "useless" sort of way, more in a "purposeless" way. All that was left was the final duty of leaving things right for the other man's return. The monk is selfless. With no more duties and no one else needing his help, it's selfish to cling to life. His work was done so he went to his death the same way he did everything else, peacefully and wholeheartedly.

Logistically speaking, the new monk is gonna need a boat. The old monk pulled the plug so that the boat would partially flood. That way it wouldn't burn along with him and the pyre. I have no idea if this is traditionally Buddhist.

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[–] roamingbrit 13 years ago

I like your thinking lexagregor

The selflessness aspect leans towards Buddhism, but not the self-immolation which is rarely something Buddhist monks would do.

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[–] zuloworks 13 years ago

I remember a televisioned scene from the news of a monk burning himself in relation to the vietnam war. I don't know if he was buddhist ...

this scene shows in Bergmans Persona.

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[–] lyonefein 13 years ago

I think he was just feeling old. Like he was getting ready to die anyway--he could feel it in his bones, so to speak. So he wanted to save others the trouble.

It's never "just a film."

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[–] naonak 13 years ago

I have to disagree.

Self-immolation is indeed not traditionally Buddhist - especially not as a final path to enlightenment. The only case I am aware of is the one zuloworks mentioned.

I saw it more as a punishment and solution he chooses. He is aware that he is at least partially responsible for his students' actions - he let his romantic involvement happen in the first place.

If you think a bit further:
There is also the possibility that the master himself was a sinner before he became a monk. He then chose the path of religion to clear himself of his human burdens. When he took a student, he trained him in self-control, but his subconscious still projected some of his sinful wishes onto the student. This is what could´ve led the child to torture the animals in the first place.
(Based on a psychoanalytical viewpoint of mother-child relations and the fact that many monks/nuns choose their path as an act of self-control, because they have strong "sinful" or "human" urges and feel the need to control them before they get out of control)
In this case the student was the "animal" that was tortured and subconscious portrayals of human desire formed the stone tied to him.
The monk who realizes this, seeks final enlightenment in "not being" because he sees his final sin in his mere existence. The patches he pins of his eyes/mouth/ears have the chinese character for "to close" written on it, he intentionally deprives himself of his senses as if he wants nothing of his bad influence to come out of him anymore.

Yet the cycle continues - his student takes over the shrine who accepts another boy to live with him. The same subconscious projection takes place, we see the young boy playing rudely with a turtle.
The only hope rests in the statue of Buddha, which the monk takes out of the shrine and places it in the final scene on top of a hill to watch over the whole valley.

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[–] nobuff 13 years ago

I agree with lyonefein that the monk realized he was dying. Look at his expression before he begins those preparations. He knows his natural end is near.
As far as the choice to self-immolate, I never thought it had to do with sins and punishment, initially even made no connection with Buddhism (I'm not a devout Buddhist or anything, just Japanese). He's all alone on that isolated lake, the young monk won't return for years. What will happen if the old monk leaves things up to the natural course and dies in his sleep (or whenever)? He'll leave behind a corpse that will take months to decompose.
Imagine that pristine lake and minimalist temple. We aren't ever even shown any sign of cooking facilities there. Just the altar and the sleeping mats, as if those monks had no corporal needs (of course we know that wasn't the case. the lake was their toilet, and the young monk had sex). Imagine now that scene of unreal beauty with a decomposing body feeding hundreds of maggots, oozing viscous fluids through the clothes, making a big stain on the wooden floor that can't be removed. Giving off a foul stench until there's nothing left to decay. It's obvious to me the dying man was making sure that wouldn't happen, and the only way to do it was to self-immolate in the boat. The other thing is that Buddhists often cremate the deceased, so in this sense we can see the act as the natural thing for a Buddhist to do. He executed the cremation of his own body. When the young monk does finally return, he sees the boat and whatever charred remains (by the way I couldn't really tell, what were those things the young monk picks up from the remains and stuffs inside the buddha he sculpted out of ice?). So there's no doubt in his mind 1) that the old monk has died and 2) how it happened. It's good, it leaves no questions and no ugly remains. I don't know how many people here in this thread other than me are East Asian. I imagine many East Asian viewers would arrive naturally, automatically even, at this assumption regarding the reason.
I agree with you that we can infer the old monk too was a sinner previously, because this film is all the stages of man's life in a cycle that will repeat as long as man is mortal and less than divine. I don't know about any subconscious projections or influences though. Again, I don't believe the old monk meant his end as a self-inflicted punishment. He already lived his monastic, austere life as a way of denouncing desire and more "sinful" ways.

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[–] naonak 13 years ago

I see your point. I can only speak for the japanese part of this sentiment, as I´m half-japanese myself - it is in fact regarded as a social etiquette not to trouble other people.

But I would rather attribute it to a confucianist ethic of social function and coexistence, which has been taken to it extremes after the babyboomer generation of WW2 (the "dankai sedai")- people literally kill themselves now because they "don´t want to be a burden to anyone".
I am sure there are traces of it in Korean culture and therefore in this film too, as confucianism is deeply embedded in Eastern-Asian societies. The depth this film creates through its' story-design is, what allowed you naturally to come to this conclusion. I don´t want to speak out against your opinion, as you are completely entitled to it and did exactly what the film wants you to do: to "feel" it and reflect its' meaning within your personal realm of consciousness.

However, especially with a multi-layered film like this, it is important to work with the actions and the order they are presented in.

Other than the last chapter playing in winter, we are given no evidence of the monks' decease due to old age. His decision to self-immolate follows his students' arrest and our witness of the first and only act, which suggests the intervention of a higher power: the boat swims back to the temple by itself. I saw this as the monks' progression to a higher level of existence and understanding. He realizes his last step towards enlightenment is to end his life for the reasons I described in my other post.

Of course he'd be dead until his student got released from jail and his decaying body would leave a terrible mess. But a buddhist monk would never kill himself just because he gets old. The final goal of a buddhist is to progress into Nirvana, which is not a heaven-like place, but the right to completely cease to exist, leaving the cycle of life. Without the self-immolation being completely necessary and a vital step towards enlightenment it would just be a futile attempt to escape.

We can therefore assume the preceding events must have had the essential impact to cause his self-immolation. In the film, the monk kills himself directly after his students' arrest, punctuating the deep connection between those two scenes inside the films' causality.

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[–] nobuff 13 years ago

Other than the last chapter playing in winter, we are given no evidence of the monks' decease due to old age.

But we are, as I've already said. If you have a chance and can watch this film again, the director shows us the old man “knowing” his end is nearing. Happens all the time, but it's still fascinating to see how different people will take away such different impressions from the same info.
Of course we Japanese are all about "not causing trouble for others", "wanting to avoid being a burden on others". I don't know enough about Korean thinking to say how like us they are on this, but because this desire not to burden others is part of why Chinese and Koreans find Japanese to be colder and disinterested--in their interpersonal relations Koreans and Chinese tend to be more interventional, want to be involved, want to "be burdened"--I would guess that this thinking is very much a Japanese characteristic, not Confucian. I think of Korea as the most Confucian of the three modern societies though of course those values are still strong in China also, and Japan as well (probably to the lowest extent of the three). And I don't believe Confucianism approves of suicide either.
I don't think the old monk's act was so much a suicide as a disposal (by early cremation) of the body that would be left after his death which was impending. Because you don't agree that the monk was dying of natural causes, you seek causes and moral reasons for a suicide. I also think this film tells us that being brought into the world, not dying, is cause for grief. You seem to be saying somewhat the same, not at first but in your later post.

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[–] hilaryjrp 13 years ago

I'm neither East Asian nor Buddhist (nor Confucian). Whether for good reason or not, I intuited the white cat as a symbol of impending death; and I certainly questioned the old monk's sending the cat away with the "son." The most supernatural incident in the entire film is the boat "not wanting to move."

From this I inferred that the old monk's grief is so strong that he chooses to end his life and is not suffering from any disease. He also loved the cat too much to let it suffer, and so he made sure it made the trip to shore. Interestingly, the detectives are only able to get the boat to move after the cat meows a couple of times.

The symbolism in this film was very difficult for a westerner (or least me) to follow. But the self-immolation was very upsetting, because I did not associate such practices with Buddhism. I'm therefore very grateful to have read this thread and the posts by the two people above!

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[–] zuloworks 13 years ago

thank you.

it seems so obvious under that perspective.

the other relating thing is the intervention in the suicide attempt of the young one when he comes back from the city (beating him surprisingly hard).
that shows that the boy is not ready to leave to nirvana because his motivation is clearly egoistic suffering: so no possible transcendence.

!out¡

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[–] w-vds 13 years ago

The elder monk knew that his apprentice would come back after jail. He just knew because the young man had just been taught about 'the world of men', and it was evident that after his punishment he would be back. This is important because I thought that the last step(s) to enlightenment have something to do with passing on the teachings.

Since the elder monk had done his job he could leave the earthly world and put everything in place for his apprentice to eventually walk the same path.

The supernatural thing with the boat was most probably chi controlled by the elder monk. My guess is that was necessary to show the viewer that the monk had already trained himself to a very high level: a guy that controls chi that well is certainly very high on the spiritual ladder.

So since the monk had fulfilled his tasks (1) his own training (2) made sure that the house on the lake would have a new future monk; it was finally time for him to leave.

This is the whole point of the movie; it is entitled the way it is for a reason. Life is about cycles. It goes on and on. Just like the seasons change, the resident of the floating house changes over time, awaiting the novice enlightened ones. Over and over again.

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[–] chaos-rampant 13 years ago

The film gives the impression of a combination of factors: guilt weighing on him for giving up his apprentice to police, the sense of completing a life's work and journey, taking the last step towards cessation.

But the point remains, also from your question that perhaps this is a traditional way to end one's life. What a thought! Buddhists routinely being burned alive as part of tradition.

This is not a traditional thing. Moreover, it is almost comically ersatz 'spirituality' on the part of the film to so casually depict self-immolation. From a pastoral perspective, it is simply poor Buddhism and bad karma to so easily throw life away when so much remains to be done in the world.

But this is the same film that depicts martial arts on the ice as so splendorous or picks the most rousing song for the arduous journey of self-punishment, it's just not to be taken entirely serious in its Buddhist aspects. It's full of misty-eyed romance.

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[–] chilone 13 years ago

Do you not realize that your subject title is a spoiler?? A$$wipe!!

Living well is the best revenge.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] ChazzJazz 13 years ago

LOL relax, it s NOT a major point in film of philosophical discussion. NO major plot twists here, mate LOL

to answer the question, it seems the teacher has overused his humanly body and reincarnated into the snake (?)

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] KORcine79 13 years ago

Hi, I'm Korean and I think there are some miss-understanding about your point
-- Excuse for my poor English...:(

In Buddhistic Tradition, When monk die, the body is cremated.
it's not about sacrification nor immolation. He is just an old monk.

but He is alone in the temple. and he realize that his time in this life is nearly come to an end. so he cremate himself (very sad...)

In Buddhistic tradition, When monk practice very hard, he can feel his final day.
the old monk in this film also realize it, it is especially emphasized in Tibetan Buddhism. but Korean and other traditions are also influenced.

I think such miss-understanding is caused by interpretating the crying(sobbing?) of the old monk. I don't want to say that my understanding is correct but we all knew that we are not cry because we are only felt sad. isn't it?

Guess an old monk who realize his final day, prepared to leave his body and self-cremating... I think he probably remind of his old days and felt every emotions that all human can feel. so he couldn't help but burst into tears.

As a Korean Buddhist, that's my thoughts.
Anyway, I love this Film and every file by Kim Ki-Duk. Thanks.

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[–] amaryllis0201 12 years ago

Reading this thread is very eye-opening to me. Although I'm not a Buddhist, I'm Asian so I can identify with some parts of the movie. I lean towards KORcine79's explanation. Self-immolation or suicide is not encouraged in Buddhism. Well-seasoned monks can tell when his life is coming to an end. He could have died a natural course, but there was no one else to cremate his body so he decides to cremate himself to pave the way for the young monk to come back and take charge of the monastery.

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[–] danielvutran 11 years ago

Great post KORcine79. I agree. ^^

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[–] mephistopheles93 11 years ago

I suspect he was trying to atone for and transform his disciple's negative Karma. Compare this to the following true story of Master Hsu Yun:

"After his own enlightenment, the master immediately began his Bodhisattva work of guiding others out of the sea of suffering. His first act was to pray to the Buddha for the liberation of his mother whom he had never seen. Previously he had taken the vow to go to the monastery of King Asoka at Ningpo to pay reverence to the Buddha's relics and to burn off there one of his fingers as his offering to the Buddha for her liberation. Each day he prostrated three thousand times and increased the number until he ached all over and was seriously ill. He became so weak that the chief monk did not approve of his burning a finger on account of the risk involved. The master burst into a flood of tears and finally the superintendent of the monastery and another monk agreed to assist him in fulfilling his vow. He was helped to the main hall where together with the assembly, he paid reverence to the Buddha, performed the ritual and recited the text of the rules of repentance and reform. He wrote later: "With singleness of mind, I repeated the Buddha's name and prayed Him to liberate my affectionate mother. At the beginning I felt pain, but as gradually my mind became pure, my awakening wisdom manifested clearly ... When my finger had burned off, I arose to bow down before the Buddha. I did not need others to support me and entirely forgot my illness. After walking unaided to present my thanks to the assembly, I returned to the sick bay. Everyone present was surprised at my transformation, and I moved out of the hut for sick monks."

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