MovieChat Forums > Der Untergang (2005) Discussion > Hitler's most idiotic move

Hitler's most idiotic move


I'm impressed by many of the intelligent replies in the threads here. People who are familiar with history already know this: his downfall began with his idiotic decision to invade the Soviet Union. Like Napoleon, hubris caused him to think that his armies could survive the "war of attrition." Granted, the nazis were initially decimating the Soviets, but as they are known to do, the Russians just withdrew deeper into the country and let the winter kill the invading forces.

I literally shudder when I consider what would have probably happened to England if he wasn't stupid enough to wage two wars against those two powers at once. It also began Stalin's literal obsession with killing him. It was just stupid all around. The Soviets had no intention of interfering with him prior to the invasion.

Also, in the movie he says, "the east will eventually triumph over the decadent democracies of the west" -- wrong again, dumb--s.



reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

From 1939 to June 22, 1941, he did just that. Stalin's Russia was supplying raw materials and doing a brisk trade with Hitler's Germany right up to the invasion.

reply

Exactly. They were allies. Hitler wanted Germany to regain former territory that had been ceded to Poland after WWI (Danzig being the main prize), and in the process wipe the Polish nation off the map. Stalin also hated the Poles, and believed that the much hated / persecuted Kulaks (Middle Class peasantry) were in league with the Polish intelligence agencies. Also Stalin had territorial ambitions of absorbing parts of Poland in to the Ukrainian SSR and Belorussian SSR. The rest of the western world looked down upon German and Soviet territorial ambitions, and their totalitarianism and refused to align themselves with the Soviet Union. Stalin wanting to add more territory to the USSR and wanting to get rid of arguably one of his most hated opponents, the Poles, gladly accepted Germany's olive branch to dived and conquer. Both nations were pariahs at this point, so even though ideologically they hated each other, why not join forces to conquer an equal hated nation and reap the benefits?

However, I believe Hitler from the beginning knew that he would stab Stalin in the back. He hated communism. Hell the only reason Nazism came to being was because it was reaction to communism spreading through Germany post-WWI and in response to resentment many felt towards the Versailles Treaty. Over the years Nazism took a vehement anti-Semitic and anti-Bolshevik stance that by 1939 was clearly defined and enacted throughout the Reich. I am sure Stalin knew that his alliance with Hitler was a tree bearing poisonous fruit. However, I think because of his own egotism and because of his lust for territorial expansion, that Stalin threw caution to the wind. Also controversially many Historians have argued that like Hitler, Stalin had plans of attacking his ally and expanding his empire. That would also explain why he was willing to except German alliance overtures and why he was so mystified / unwilling to accept the fact that the Germans invaded the Soviet Union. Placements of Soviet troops also seems to lend itself more towards preparing for offense rather than defense, but could be poor defensive planning. We will never know truly unless some long lost document is found somewhere in the Kremlin.

I think supplying each other with raw materials (and even helping out with military advances, which both nations did) was to show true alliance, but mean while it was a ploy to lull the other totalitarian titan into a false sense of security.

reply

"If he's a Pole, he's a Kulak...." -- Soviet maxim about dealing with "class enemies", which more often than not turned out to be *ethnic* enemies.

reply

Forgive me for defending 'Uncle Joe' but in most cases in the Stalin Era of the USSR if you were Russian (and not some other kind of ethnic/religious Minority) or a member of 'The Party', you were probably pretty safe from the paranoia of the time.





Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

reply

I'm impressed by many of the intelligent replies in the threads here. People who are familiar with history already know this: his downfall began with his idiotic decision to invade the Soviet Union. Like Napoleon, hubris caused him to think that his armies could survive the "war of attrition." Granted, the nazis were initially decimating the Soviets, but as they are known to do, the Russians just withdrew deeper into the country and let the winter kill the invading forces.


I suppose there's any number of views one might take, whether invading Russia itself was the most idiotic move or whether it had to do with some of his decisions after the invasion had started. Or whether it was the timing of the invasion itself.

In conjunction with the many other acts of idiocy attributed to Hitler, then that may have made it even worse.

I suppose if his only goal was to eliminate the "red menace" and limit his objective solely to dismantling the Bolshevik regime, without taking over the whole country or murdering/enslaving millions of innocent people, then he might have found more willing allies to join his cause which might have tipped the balance. So, he might have won, if not for all the other idiotic things he was doing at the time.


I literally shudder when I consider what would have probably happened to England if he wasn't stupid enough to wage two wars against those two powers at once. It also began Stalin's literal obsession with killing him. It was just stupid all around. The Soviets had no intention of interfering with him prior to the invasion.


I can see where Hitler might have seen Stalin and the USSR as a threat, just as many Western leaders did. If Hitler just wanted to take out Stalin and his government, then he didn't really need to invade Czechoslovakia or Poland for that. If he had just made a peaceful deal with those countries instead of wanting to grab everything, then he may have been able to have them as allies against the Soviet Union.


Also, in the movie he says, "the east will eventually triumph over the decadent democracies of the west" -- wrong again, dumb--s.


I think Hitler underestimated the West from the start.

Whether or not his prediction comes to pass in the future is anyone's guess. I suppose China could eventually triumph over the West, or we could just gradually fall apart on our own.

reply

"... the scale and grandeur of the Russian effort mark it as the greatest military achievement in all history."
-General Douglas MacArthur

http://preview.tinyurl.com/me25une

http://preview.tinyurl.com/p8v7uz7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrKDBFJoo2w

reply

Hitler was in over his head from the start. Germany had no way to win the war. His only way to win would have been nuclear weapons and the vast majority of German nuclear physicists were Jewish.

The allies were simply too strong for Germany to defeat. The longer the war lasted the stronger the allies became and yet he had no way to win quickly. It was doomed to failure before it even started.

The United States alone had at least 10 times the industrial production of Germany. The only advantage the Nazis had was they had been making their army for years, as soon as the allies caught up even a little it was over.

Hitler was too stupid to realize he had no way to win. Any of England, US or USSR were more than a match for Germany on their own, fighting all 3 at once was lunacy. The political situation made the military situation impossible.

reply

If not for the USSR Britain and USA would fight Germany to a stalemate... then maybe USA drops nukes on them who knows.

Hitler should not have delayed the attack on Moscow which happened twice.

Had Moscow fell and Stalin forced to leave the city who knows what happens then..wouldn't be shocked to see Stalin assassinated

reply

If it wasn't for the U.S.Germany and Japan would have won world war 2. That being said when it came to the war in Europe the Russians bore the majority of the fighting and casualties. The U.S. lent material help to all of the allies including Russia which allowed the allies to hold off the Nazi onslought prior to Dec, 7 1941. Following the bombing of Pearl Harbor and Hitlers declaration of war on the U.S.. The influx of american men and material allowed the allies to not only reinforce their armies in north Africa but to open a second front eventually on the European continent. This provided much needed relief for the Red Army. So speaking from a historical point of view we may not have won the war single handedly but it would have been lost if it wasn't for the Americans. So from an Americans point of view yeah we changed the outcome of the war. But so did the rest of the allies. Again Russia had been moving armor around using horse and buggy before America shipped tens of thousands of trucks, jeeps, tanks, & other armor by going up through the arctic to avoid German boats. That one thing right there allowed Russia to stay alive and not become a vassal of Germany and that is assured. So beside America saving Russia from simply bending over and becoming Nazi itself, American forces literally pushed Germans to the borders of Russia. Without the US Airforce and Navy, Germany would have won and again Russia would have fallen. Patton one US general took his troops through Normandy, Sicily, Lorraine all the way to Germany, Belgium, France, OP Overload, Austria, Morocco, Algeria, Africa, Middle East, Japan, the Pacific all of these places the entire section of the earth while Russia could not advance through its own borders till US and British air support leveled the Germans mech. The U.S. Saved Russia. Russia had nothing to do with defeating them on any front other then loosing millions on their own soil. The only thing that saved them was American mech, British intelligence,and the bitter cold.

reply

The Soviet Union would have won WWII regardless of lend lease.

It was Soviet manpower that grinded the once unstoppable Blitzkrieg to halt, and then ultimately chased the Wehrmacht from the gates of Moscow all the way to Berlin.

It was Soviet production: which produced tens of thousands of one of the finest tank designs in the world, tens of thousands of fighter, bomber, and ground attack craft that eliminated the Luftwaffe from the skies once and for all.

Trucks and light tanks from lend lease did not save Russia or play a major part in them defeating the Germans.

By the time the Allies finally got around to invading France, the Germans were already defeated, at the Battle of Kursk in 1943, Hitler's last gamble, and chance to regain the initiative on the Eastern Front.

Had there been no Eastern Front (where most of the Wehrmacht were fighting) the Allies would have had zero chance to land in western Europe.

The Germans fighting in North Africa were ignored and denied any supplies or reinforcements and still nearly knocked the Allies out of Africa.


Italy getting its ass kicked in Greece and the coup in Yugoslavia delayed Barbarossa over a month.

Also, Britain is lucky that Goering changed the air mission in the Battle of Britain from targeting factories and airfields to trying to wipe out cities with light and medium bombers.

reply

Lies

reply

Lies


No, those are facts confirmed by our own government before cold war propaganda began. Pull your nose out of America's ass and stick it in a history book instead.
We all know someone of your level of ignorance and hubris would never read a history book, so I have provided a documentary made by the U.S. War Department explaining:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrKDBFJoo2w

reply

No they are NOT facts you delusional troll. I see you are into Russian Propaganda so you should move there (I think you will love it). That video btw didn't cover the facts I was making. And LOL at US History books which doesn't even HONOR all of its history. By your OWN logic you should watch this video..https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VXP0e7vPnx8

reply

Russian Propaganda


You are a lost cause.

reply

Go move to Russia. You may already be one of Putin's paid trolls.

reply

[deleted]

The Soviet Union would have won WWII regardless of lend lease.

That's very much debatable. Lend Lease aid was vital to the Soviet war effort. It was more than just tanks and aircraft (though they represented almost twenty percent of Soviet numbers), but raw materials, food, AVGAS, locomotives, trucks, electronics, and more.
and then ultimately chased the Wehrmacht from the gates of Moscow all the way to Berlin.

Chasing the fascists to Berlin would have been very difficult indeed without American-made trucks.
tens of thousands of fighter, bomber, and ground attack craft that eliminated the Luftwaffe from the skies once and for all.

Actually, the neutralization of the Luftwaffe was mostly from the USAAF atritting the German fighter force in early 1944.
Trucks and light tanks from lend lease did not save Russia or play a major part in them defeating the Germans.

Well, I do agree that American light tanks did little to help. That's why the Soviets ceased ordering them in 1943 in favour of Sherman tanks which were well liked and highly valued. Without American trucks, Soviet units would have been unable to move.
The Germans fighting in North Africa were ignored and denied any supplies or reinforcements

Denied them mostly by the Royal Navy and RAF. Germany and Italy sent hundreds of thousands of well equipped troops to Africa with as much consumable stores as they could gather. About as many Axis soldiers surrendered in Africa as did at Stalingrad.
and still nearly knocked the Allies out of Africa.

Not really. there was little chance that they would have broken through the British lines at Alamein. The logistics of that theatre would not permit it.
Also, Britain is lucky that Goering changed the air mission in the Battle of Britain from targeting factories and airfields to trying to wipe out cities with light and medium bombers.

Not especially. At worst, they might have had to abandon the airfields south of London. They were winning the war of attrition there and would have continued to do so even if operating from 12 Group's area.

reply

Thats a fair statement about Russia beating Hitler by themselves. However you are wrong about Britain being lucky against Germany. Britain was making more planes than Germany, they were fighting on home turf and German fighters lacked the range to escort bombers over England.

Even in Hitler's war plan for invasion of England one of the preconditions to even launch the attack was to neutralize or destroy the British Navy and this was never even close to happening. Germany only had half a navy because that idiot Hitler launched the war early, and most of what they had was destroyed in the useless taking of Norway.

Just like in the broader war there was no path to victory in the battle of Britain for Germany. If he tried to invade he'd lose most of his army at the bottom of the english channel. An invasion of Britain would make the Russian front look like a good idea.

To me a war plan without a clear idea of how you win is criminal. Its just a lot of death and destruction for no good reason.

reply

However, taking Norway was *not* useless. It provided Germany with so many ports and prevented the UK from easily blockading Germany, unlike World War One. That and France falling apart, of course.

reply

Yeah, but the US was so isolationist that it drove Roosevelt crazy. If the Japanese hadn't bombed Pearl Harbor who knows how long it would have taken us to come into the war.

reply

I'm impressed by many of the intelligent replies in the threads here. People who are familiar with history already know this: his downfall began with his idiotic decision to invade the Soviet Union. Like Napoleon, hubris caused him to think that his armies could survive the "war of attrition." Granted, the nazis were initially decimating the Soviets, but as they are known to do, the Russians just withdrew deeper into the country and let the winter kill the invading forces.

I literally shudder when I consider what would have probably happened to England if he wasn't stupid enough to wage two wars against those two powers at once. It also began Stalin's literal obsession with killing him. It was just stupid all around. The Soviets had no intention of interfering with him prior to the invasion.


The entirety of Hitler's foreign policy was directed against defeating the Soviet Union. To say the invasion of Russia was his "most idiotic move" is an utterly idiotic statement as the invasion of Russia was the entire point of the war. This is like saying the most idiotic move Jesus made was challenging the authority of the Pharisees!

An you "shudder to think" what would have happened to the UK? You do realize that it was the UK that declared war on Germany, not the other way around? Germany had no beef with either the UK or France. Hitler was desperate to make peace with England and the British could have walked away from the war they themselves started any time they wanted!

reply

britain was an ally of poland, and germany knew quite well that declaring war on poland would lead to war with britain and france. to spin this as "britain declared war on germany" as if germany was an innocent bystander is preposterous.

hitler was pathologically incapable of making a lasting peace with anyone, even his italian allies.

reply

Britain BECAME the ally of Poland as a ploy to provoke the Germans.

No, they did not know it would lead to war. France and Britain had threatened war many times before that. Nobody in their right mind thought they would risk war for paltry Poland. Unless they wanted war of course, and that the Allies did.

reply

so let me see if i have this logic right:

0) hitler decides that everyone who speaks german should answer to him alone, and annexes austria
1) britain and france hand hitler czechoslovakia on a silver platter to maintain the peace
2) hitler says "i have no further territorial ambitions in europe" while continuing to build up a massive army
3) enraged by this outbreak of peace, britain allies with poland to antagonize hitler after just appeasing him with czechoslovakia
4) britain and france tell hitler, "if you attack poland, this time it's war...and we mean it."
5) britain and france make no aggressive moves, and do nothing to reinforce poland
6) hitler says, "oh yeah, that no further territorial claims thing? did i actually say that? poland, give us more stuff. and you have three days to do so or it's war"
7) poland says..."uh...no?"
8) hitler says, "we will not tolerate such aggression! we'll kill some of our people, blame it on you, and launch a massive attack at dawn!"
9) britain and france say, "stop that! go home! or we'll be mad!"
10) hitler says, "your mama!"
11) britain and france say, "sigh...there's nothing we can do to help, but this means...war?"
12) hitler says, "seriously? i always got away with this before...."
13) poland says, "thanks for the nice card, but we're destroyed"
14) those warmongers britain and france sit on their hands doing nothing for six months
15) germany whacks france, and the war is on in earnest....

....

997,865) internationalclique determines that ww2 was all britain's doing.

reply

That would be the history channel version. Try this one instead:

1) Hitler gets elected leader of Germany. Jews declare him war, the west boycotts him. Because he's right wing and you know, that is criminal.

2) Hitler asks the leaders of Europe to get together for economic and military cooperation. Mutual disarmament and tearing down trade barriers. He gets told to fck himself.

3) Hitler takes the message and starts modest rearming of Germany for defense. The rest of Europe which outnumber him 50 to 1 responds by going on a war footing.

4) Despite the world wide boycott Hitler reinvigorates the economy and sets his goals on what he promised his people when he was elected (when do we ever see that happen?): bring the Germans back to Germany.

5) Uses Woodrow Wilson proclamation about Self Determination to have a vote in German Austria. The Austrians overwhelmingly support his bid to join Germany.

6) Does the same thing for the German part of Chechoslovakia (which is an artificial state). The western powers accept (how can they not?). After the Sudetenland goes to Germany all the other ethnic groups in Chechoslovakia want the same, threatening to end the entire country, artificial that it is. Hitler sees that either he will take the vacuum, or the communists will.

7) After all this success he wants to solve the last issue. German Danzig in artificial Poland. But the Poles have the backing of the British and tells him to eff off. Every day Polish newspapers are calling for war against Germany. Thousands of German civilians are murdered in Poland. Hitler tells the western powers and Poland this situation can not go on. They tell him to go fck himself.

8) Hitler does what any leader of a sovereign nation would, he invades an enemy state who is asking for war.

9) Finally Britain and France have the excuse they have been looking for. War is declared and the rest we know.

reply

sorry, i forgot a few:

-2) hitler writes mein kampf, blaming jews for all germany's ills & vows revenge
-1) jews are concerned that hitler might actually mean what he says in mein kampf, yet meekly go about their business as usual because nobody could possibly be that crazy, could they?

....

996,911) internationalclique swallows fanciful german propaganda as absolute truth without a shred of actual proof

reply

hitler writes mein kampf, blaming jews for all germany's ills & vows revenge


It would help if you had actually read it.

1) jews are concerned that hitler might actually mean what he says in mein kampf, yet meekly go about their business as usual because nobody could possibly be that crazy, could they?


A worldwide boycott threatening to starve millions of Germans is not what I'd call meek. Nor their active support for the enemies of Germany.

You care to mention what criteria the US used when they put Jap Americans, German Americans and Italian Americans in concentration camps?

reply

i've read enough to know what it's about. it's tedious reading - even mussolini couldn't finish it.

a worldwide boycott that starves millions of germany isn't meek - it's also a total fantasy.

the usa didn't put german or italian americans into concentration camps, at all. where do you get this stuff from? on second though, i don't want to know. do you have any concept of how many german and/or italian americans there are? half the country would have been in prison.

while japanese americans were interned, at least they weren't executed. a japanese american unit was also the most highly decorated army unit in ww2. how many medals were awarded to the jewish ss division?

reply

Pretty light on facts aren't you? Nothing you said there was true. You must hang out with a lot of racists?

reply

Everything you say is pure fantasy.

The Jews were murdered because they were weak, not because they were any threat to anybody. Hitler threw the gypsies in for good measure, i suppose there was an international conspiracy of gypsies to ruin germany as well?

The Russian soldiers were treated worse than the Jews, i suppose they deserved that because they were born in Russia?

Hitler murdered the old and the sick, the mentally ill, the gypsies, the jews, captured russians. Anybody he could get away with murdering.

Now that the Jews have weapons suddenly everybody is alright with them being around. Hey tough guy, why don't you pick on Israel now? They would nuke Germany into oblivion.

reply

finally someone who makes sense

reply

He made numerous blunders. His invasion of Russia started what, 6 weeks late? I wonder what the outcome would've been had he launched the invasion, 6 weeks earlier? Another blunder was England. By many accounts, the RAF was 2 weeks away from being beaten. Then 2 pilots made what I consider one of the costliest blunders in the war when they were taking AA fire and decided to drop their bombs and run, believing they were no where near London, when they were right over it. Churchill used this to his advantage, launching air raids on Berlin and did so until Hitler took the bait. Until then, civilian targets had been off limits but Hitler then changed from RAF airfields to the cities, allowing the RAF to rebuild. What would've happened had the RAF been defeated and Germany had air supremacy over England, would they have sued for peace? If so, imagine how many troops that would've freed up from the Western front to move to the Eastern front! Hitler's fight to the death orders were also absurd!

reply

If Hitler had trusted his more competent commanders on military matters more, there'd have been a good chance of success. The two costly ones, was stopping outside Moscow, and starting the invasion too late. The most safest way, was to not fight Russia at all, its too big.

reply

Italy and North Africa was another. Hitler sent so many troops to bail out Mussolini in North Africa when they tried to invade Egypt for the oil fields. Britain had a much better force and kicked their butts so when things went bad for Italy, Hitler came to the rescue. That battle wound up going from North Africa to Sicily to the mainland of Italy with Hitler committing more troops to defending Italy costing valuable troops needed for the Eastern Front.

reply

if the germans didn't send troops to italy, the western allies would have been in munich in 1943.

reply

I don't agree. If Italy did not invade North Africa (and Greece) and get in trouble, Germany wouldn't of had to send their troops to help which in turn, caused Britain to send even more of what they had stationed in North Africa and resulted in such a loss of men and equipment to Germany which they could've committed to the Eastern front. The allies were not going to invade Europe by way of Italy but Germany had to commit millions of troops to defend Italy and North Africa.

reply

italy was always going to be in trouble, whether they invaded north africa or not. leaving greece unmolested would simply give the brits an open door to the balkans, and not fighting in north africa means they wouldn't have to worry about losing suez.

the brits and americans would be in sicily a year earlier, italy out of the war shortly after, and the germans bogged down protecting their southern flank anyways.

the german problems on the eastern front were more of supply than lack of troops. sending more men there would have made the situation even worse for them in that regard, cancelling out the benefit of having the extra units.

reply

It didn't help that he stopped listening to people who had a better idea of what they were talking about and only listened to people who toadied up to him like Bormann. By 1943 Goebbels really thought they should try to negotiate some kind of deal with Britain against Russia and actually brought it up but Hitler wouldn't listen.

reply

Anyone with historical knowledge knows that the reason the russians won the war was do to share luck. It's easy to say that it was a idiot move of Hitler in hindsight but in reality the germans where very close at taking out russia.

reply

Thats a fair statement about Russia beating Hitler by themselves. However you are wrong about Britain being lucky against Germany. Britain was making more planes than Germany, they were fighting on home turf and German fighters lacked the range to escort bombers over England.

Even in Hitler's war plan for invasion of England one of the preconditions to even launch the attack was to neutralize or destroy the British Navy and this was never even close to happening. Germany only had half a navy because that idiot Hitler launched the war early, and most of what they had was destroyed in the useless taking of Norway.

Just like in the broader war there was no path to victory in the battle of Britain for Germany. If he tried to invade he'd lose most of his army at the bottom of the english channel. An invasion of Britain would make the Russian front look like a good idea.

To me a war plan without a clear idea of how you win is criminal. Its just a lot of death and destruction for no good reason.


What screwed Hitler up, ironically enough, is that he underestimated just how beholden the British were to the International Banking interests. He hoped he'd never have to fight the British and French in the first place. Why would they go to war over Poland after all, especially since it was a joint invasion by the Germans and Soviets? But even if the British did declare war and Germany had to deal with them first, he never envisioned a scenario where the British would keep fighting even after the Germans drove them off the continent. Logically, it made no sense. If Britain's leaders were truly looking after British self interest, they'd have made peace after the evacuation and Dunkirk. Britain's irrational behavior put a screwed up Hitler's plan big time. Caused a massive delay while he desperately tried to talk the British in to peace before finally giving and launching the invasion despite the West not being settled because he simply couldn't wait any longer.

reply