MovieChat Forums > The Woodsman (2005) Discussion > Controversial but much needed for an ign...

Controversial but much needed for an ignorant society


First off, I absolutely am against the abusing of children (sexual, physical, emotional, verbal) and in no way will justify the actions of any person who do such things. That being said, I am also not one of those ignorant people in society who believe that all child molesters should be KILLED or tortured in inhumane ways.

I'm always appalled to hear how normal, civilized, rational human beings all of a sudden become blood-thirsty, psychotic, neurotic, serial killers equal to Hitler when they hear about child molesters. They say things like, "They don't deserve a trial, just kill them on the spot, chop off their peckers, burn them alive in ovens," etc etc.

If you're going to react this way to child molesters, then you should react this way to every other criminal as well. Wife beaters, rapists, murderers, terrorists, animal abusers, etc. We should have this sort of vigilance against ALL crimes and not just reserve the worst for child molesters. But it's amazing how people react this way and then let off multi-billion dollar corporations, ceos, elitists, who run and head organizations that KILL millions around the world.

Are child molesters any worse than neglectful parents? Neglectful parents who leave a baby locked in a car and roasts in the sun for 2 hours? The ignorant society must be educated and understand that even child molesters are human beings and there is more than meets the eye behind the crime. As much as it pains some of you, they too deserve a fair trial, and process through the court of law/justic. You can't just scream and yell and accuse someone as worse than HITLER because he/she is a child molester. You don't know everything behind the story.

To me, this is no different from racial profiling. If you hear or see a black dude in your neighborhood, do you automatically assume and judge him as a gangbanger, drug dealer, no good low life criminal and should be shot and put down like animals? You people need to calm down and understand that child molesters are no worse than your neighborhood murderer, or even some con businessman who destroys families lives by stealing and scamming them out of all their money.

Again, not saying anything justifies child molestation, but this movie and many other cases out there are trying to show that there is MORE behind the story and person. You don't know how many of them might be struggling and dealing with the condition....society just assumes that they are pure evil and monsters with no ounce of humanity or a soul in them.

Lastly, the ignorant society should learn the difference between pedophila and child molesters. Child molesters are not always PEDOPHILES. And pedophiles are not always child molesters. The ignorant society does not know the difference and you don't know how many times we've all heard them use the terms synonymously as if they mean the same thing. They don't.

Child molesters can be anything from circumstantial crime, crime of opportunity, or even simply a random act were the victim happened to be a child (due to children's vulnerability and easily to overpower). It doesn't mean that the person is automatically a child molester and a pedophile.

I think this movie and hopefully more like it in the future will help shed light on breaking the ignorance of our societies about this horrendous crime and the people who commit them.

Great job by Bacon. Brave move by the filmmakers and studios to make and distribute this film.

reply

Agreed on all counts.

I really have nothing more to add. Good post.

reply

"Child molesters are not always PEDOPHILES. And pedophiles are not always child molesters."

That's actually a good point. From what I've heard, there are those that have molested children, but didn't have any physical-attraction to them because it was more about power then sexual-gratification (I do find this a bit suspicious though; if they're not attracted to the kid then how do they get it up? Also, why diddle them when non-sexual forms of abuse, such as beatings, are probably easier? Come to think of it, why the hell am I giving advice to child-abusers? What's wrong with me?) Anyway, it is also true that pedos do not necessarily molest children; William S. Burroughs (author of 'Naked Lunch') was sexually attracted to young boys, but he never acted upon those desires (you got to admire his restraint).

reply

[deleted]

It's useful for the powers that be to keep the public's attitude as it is.
Witchhunts have always been a great deflection for the masses. That combined with the unrestricted hedonism that prevails today. Panem et circenses!

"Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?"

reply



"Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?"

reply

Great post! It's nice to see that not everybody is a completely ignorant moron. I've tried making this argument on other internet forums and it usually isn't received well. One time I tried making the argument that "Pedophiles can be good people," and all I got was insults hurled at me and accusations of being a child molester. It's sad.

reply

I'm half guilty.

I do feel that child molesters are the worse and more unforgivable criminals than murderers or neglectful parents, despite their childhood. I also have a hard time to see them as "human beings". Irrational and ignorant? I guess so, but it's just how I've grown to think of them.

But ignorance isn't the only thing you're writing about. Regardless of how I feel about this, I don't participate in the hate speech. What I often see is a competition who can wish the worst torture on child molesters and the person who wins, is the "best" person.
But everyone can hate and it's really easy to judge. Since time immemorial, hateful judgement of varying forms has been a quick way to be rewarded with praise and some twisted moral highground.

The mentality is little different from witch trials and the prosecution of jews during the second world war. We're talking about actual criminals in this case, but the desire to see someone tortured still has more to do with selfish desires than wanting to make the world a better place.

I don't like it. When people seem to get off on judging so intensively and with so much sadism, I can't help but wonder what they've got to hide.

reply

I also wonder along which lines we place people falsely accused of such abuse, like in the Danish film "The Hunt" (2012), who endured not only mental but also physical humiliation where there was no proof.

Some people suggested we should stay away from kids at all times as a result, accused all others who have families of being "naive" and suggested, with dead seriousness, that all men should have cameras wherever they go, whilst I bet 100 dollars none of them ever did OR would like that.

Is that in a way also society being a little on the "ignorant side"? (I especially find it amusing how at least one person suggests that if one goes and angrily tells a child to eff off just like that, there is an 100% guarantee he won't be accused of being a, you know. Like that is going to help matters at all. Oh and no thought was even given to the fact that, if you watch that movie closely, it were the ADULTS who actually made that accusation against him due to lack of professionalism above all other things, but hey, I guess people overall don't nitpick details like that, do they? No, its all about - let's express our deepest anger at all kids and work towards staying away from them at all costs, that we are doing nothing really wrong doesn't matter.)

I wonder what Thomas Vinterberg himself thinks of THIS movie if he has seen it and does he think that our reaction to ACTUAL child molesters as such, as Kevin Bacon's character in this film, should be a violent one? Is he in agreeance with this film that they may in the end be redeemed and allowed back into society, after they served their prison sentence?

reply

Is a "pedophile" who DOESN'T act on his so-called desire and "condition" anymore an official pedophile than a person who fantasizes about killing someone who DOESN'T do so a "murderer" or a person who fantasizes about having sex with someone but doesn't do so especially forcefully in real life a "rapist" or even someone who takes a role play in the act of consensual sex that really happens but there is no actual force involved to make it "rape"?

And if a pedophile DOESN'T act on his desire for any instance or even has any real official thoughts and plans for doing so, how would anyone even KNOW he is one in the first place?

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

reply

But on the other hand, isn't it at least natural to feel both hateful and vengeful towards people who do such crimes? Interestingly enough, a lot of civilized people say and think that there are too many ignorant people on the other side - those who defend child molesters.

In all this talk, who is actually RIGHT, I mean, is there one single absolute CORRECT opinion on all of this?

I dare say, I often get very confused and disoriented when I find out that in this world overall, there is no ONE absolute opinion on all of this in humanity, but that still doesn't stop other people from having THEIR one opinions on all this BESIDES thinking it is wrong of course.

What I mean is - those people don't all of a sudden become polite intellectuals to say - Ah, this is like this because, you see?

It just re-inforces at least ONE true fact of life, that "good" and "evil" concepts really ARE man-made and don't physically exist outside the mind that believes in them, and that life is not like an action movie where we simply fight bad guys and win full stop.

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

reply

Is a "pedophile" who DOESN'T act on his so-called desire and "condition" anymore an official pedophile than a person who fantasizes about killing someone who DOESN'T do so a "murderer" or a person who fantasizes about having sex with someone but doesn't do so especially forcefully in real life a "rapist" or even someone who takes a role play in the act of consensual sex that really happens but there is no actual force involved to make it "rape"?

Yes, because pedophilia isn't a crime, it is a sexual orientation.

A man attracted to women is still a heterosexual, even if he's never been with a woman.



I'm Kevin Roberts and I'm the coolest bitch in town!

reply

Here's a relevant quote from Nymphomaniac Vol.1 (2013)


Joe: Nobody knew his secret. Most probably not even himself. He sat there with his shame. I suppose I sucked him off, is a kind of apology.
Seligman: That's unbelievable!
Joe: Listen to me. This is a man who had succeeded in repressing his own desire, who had never before given into it right up until I forced it out. He had lived a life full of denial and had never hurt a soul. I think that's laudable.
Seligman: No matter how much I try, I can't find anything laudable in pedophilia.
Joe: That's because you think about the, perhaps 5% who actually hurt children. The remaining 95% never live out their fantasies. Think about their suffering. Sexuality is the strongest force in human beings. To be born with a forbidden sexuality must be agonizing. The pedophile who manages to get through life with the shame of his desire, while never acting on it, deserves a bloody medal.

reply

The unfortunate thing about this intelligent, well written post/thread (and many on this movie's board) is it won't reach the right people.

I would like to add something to the ignorant society. Sex Offender. This term is so broad and encompasses so many different offenses, some of which would shock people that they could be considered a sex offense, yet, if a person has that label, they are automatically a child molester of the worst kind.

I don't think its natural to wish such pain or torture on someone else. That's a choice someone makes not much different than this line used everyday, everywhere "I have nothing against gays but if one hit on me I'd beat this *beep* out of them."

One last thing: I don't believe paedophilia is a sexual orientation, ie something you're born as. I've never read any credible psych report sugggesting anything of that sort. Its something that developes during adolescence/teen years. Its usually caused by something, abuse of some form.

reply

2 cartoongirls - its actually volume 2 of "Nymphomaniac" that has that dialogue to it.

By the way, did you see Volume 1 also, there were some really confronting bits to it as well and then all of a sudden there's a scene on a train which was interpreted by many as gender reversal rape with the man being the victim and young Joe the perpetrator, but was it really it?

And yet throughout both volumes of Lars von Trier's "trilogy", she is portrayed as someone who is a sympathetic character despite her flaws.


The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

reply

Society apparently doesn't have a monopoly on ignorance and can even be ignorant in places where having an opposite opinion is, in and of itself, ignorant.

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

reply

Also, I would just like to rebuke one point.

Granted, I am aware at times people can react over the top to this matter and their attitude may at least not always be encourageable.

But I wouldn't go as far as to lay claim that they are actually being in any way "worse than Hitler".

Please keep in mind that ADOLF HITLER, for one, was responsible for the millions of deaths and mass grief of mostly INNOCENT people and often for very selfish gains and not for any moral reasons.

And child molesters, well, they are guilty and often terrible folks too, the crime of child molestation for one is alone considered one of the worst crimes out there.

And even though it may be a tad sadistic and over the top, is it really that bad to wish harm on GUILTY individuals who have caused great harm themselves? And is it really irrational and not normal not to think of them as mere (albeit high level of) offenders rather than irredeemable monsters?

And even if some of them were traumatized in life and were not just born with being evil etc, well... We still agree they should be punished, right?

And the damage that they themselves cause...

I also find it interesting how in your OP you are mostly like "Yes they are wrong" but we need to understand them more than one-sidedly angrily condemn them like that.

But then again, is it not really normal and understandable if people simply despise them and full stop?

Also, OP, how do you KNOW about it all? And did you really form such stance after watching THIS movie or were you aware of it all before?

"I think this movie and hopefully more like it in the future will help shed light on breaking the ignorance of our societies about this horrendous crime and the people who commit them."
So you even ADMIT that what they do is grossly horrible but you STILL feel we shouldn't hate them too much?

reply

The thing is...

Its sometimes really hard to mentally get a grip around it all and I even had to wonder - WHO IS RIGHT? Or is almost everything in life a matter of opinion and perception and also...

You know, even though some subjects aren't always touched but...

In films, we often have good versus evil scenarios. And in them, it is considered entirely normal and a happy ending if villains get defeated and its not considered over the top let alone offensive to despise them and think they deserve to suffer or die. But in life, is it more complicated than that?

And again, who is right, is there even ONE ULTIMATE TRUTH here?

And one more time - why must we really understand certain guilty culprits rather than just condemn them? Even if we don't necessarily say they SHOULD suffer and die but still...

reply

Besides OP sorry to have to mention this also but...

If your child or you as a child would be a victim of a matter like this under any circumstances, I don't personally think you would be that concerned about the level of which the culprit is being looked down upon and of course the anger you would feel would ultimately cloud your judgment too.

And OK maybe they're not on par with Hitler but are OBVIOUSLY bad enough on their own ways (certain matters in life like sexual offenses we were drilled since youth into systematically feeling personally very bad about overall, often long before we became accustomed with their STATISTICAL FACTS, which didn't change the position but did add details) but I don't think people who despise them are being WORSE than Hitler. And can you really blame them that much?

Remember, Hitler is considered as being so bad because he was responsible for the deaths of many INNOCENT people. Not for going over the top on guilty ones.

reply