MovieChat Forums > Constantine (2005) Discussion > Suicide/Catholicism

Suicide/Catholicism

posted 14 years ago by physics101
33 replies | jump to latest

Are there any mitigating factor to the "commit suicide-go to hell" doctrine of Catholicism?

A soldier who jumps on a grenade commits suicide. If that is done with the intention of saving fellow soldier's lives, under the Catholic faith would that still mandate going to hell? It would seem not since Constantine's sacrifice was sufficient to prevent him from doing so. Or was his sacrifice deemed greater since he was sending up his immortal soul to hell for eternity and not his life?

Other than general interest, if sacrifice to save others mitigates suicide, then it seems Isabel should not have been sent to hell to begin with. At least as I understood the film, she sacrificed herself in an effort to keep the devil's son from getting to earth's "plane" through her.

Or was she just a loon who committed suicide?

[–] james-molnoskey-0111 14 years ago

Someone who sacrifices their own life to save another did not commit suicide.

[–] physics101 14 years ago

Please don't play semantic games.

As I understand Catholic doctrine (to the small extent I do), suicide is "self-murder" which is a violation of the Ten Commandments which is why suicides go to hell.

Note, that the Commandment simply says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill, except in self-defense or in defense of others" etc. etc. etc. Those exceptions are man-made legal defenses.

So again, why is Isabel in hell if she killed herself to prevent the takeover of the earth by Mammon, which is what I understood her reason for the suicide to be?

[–] Eraserhead2416 14 years ago

It's been a while, but the Catholic church has taken a stance that the mentally ill who take their own lives are exempt from punishment.

Really, these are all dubious rules, but good food for thought. Personally, sacrifice is easily one of the greatest things a person could do. The 'throwing yourself on a grenade' scenario would be called sacrifice by anyone, even without religious ideals. Now, tossing your own grenade to the ground and hopping on it, that's suicide.

Everything that can happen after that can and will be argued forever.

[–] Griever_2112 14 years ago

That isn't semantics... if someone sacrifices themselves to save the life of another... that is not the same thing as someone who hangs themselves.

Yes, a full out suicide is a mortal sin to which their is no absolution (confession) given since you must ask for it. Where, like you say in your OP, a soldier dives on a grenade, a person is taking his life yes, but he is doing so to protect others, he is not doing it for a selfish reason. Hence the sacrifice... cause if that was the case, Jesus was a suicide. He was willing to die for our sins... just like the soldier was willing to die for his brothers in arms.

Their are extenuating circumstances to any law and rule. Yes a suicide is a one-way ticket to hell... but if you die saving someone... that is a sacrifice and not a suicide.

and regarding the movie... Isabel WAS a suicide, it was never said or shown Isabel KNEW what they were going to do to her... only that Balthazar was speaking to her, who was already in a fragile state of mind... so her jumping was her own choice. Where as what happened to Constantine... he was given the choice of anything from Lucifer... where he could have gotten out of going to hell... instead he chose to sacrifice himself to send Isabel to heaven knowing she didn't belong in hell, since it was the same circumstances that he killed himself when he was younger... and since he chose to go to hell and give another reprieve that was a noteworthy sacrifice to save his soul.

Sorry, two's company, and three's an adult movie.

[–] bsharporflat 14 years ago

Hormones are internal body communication chemicals, like testosterone, insulin, even Vitamin D. They usually travel through the bloodstream from one organ to another. There are special ones called "neurotransmitters" like serotonin and acetylcholine which work within the gaps between nerve cells.

I guess it's okay to correct someone who calls a neurotransmitter a hormone but the difference isn't that important except to biochemists and neurologists.

[–] velvetjoneslives 13 years ago

Actually, you are wrong. The ten commandments come from Judaism and are laid out in the Torah. The Hebrews refer to the commandment as "Thou shall not murder". So there is definitely a distinction between murder and simply killing.

[–] jejozi 13 years ago

Don't play semantics?? lol It's religion!!

Allegedly, the commandment's actual translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder.". (Now there's semantics.) And protecting or saving the life of another by giving up your own life is not suicide, and that's NOT semantics. John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Allegedly, Jesus, who is allegedly all about love, sacrificed his life for mankind, he could have saved himself, and he didn't go to Hell, did he? Samson and Saul also committed suicide, but they didn't go to Hell, either. It's not an absolute certainty that you go to Hell if you commit suicide. But it is frowned upon.

This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.

[–] tanstaafl74 12 years ago

OK, 2 years later, sorry. But I had to comment on this atrocity of a post.

If you are going to use the Bible for anything then you should know wtf you are talking about.

The Bible does say "Thou shalt not kill", but it also says, "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." So yes, there are mitigating factors you dumb *beep*

[–] king_of_bob 11 years ago

You're the one playing the semantic games actually. And suicide has NOTHING to do with the 10 commandments. Suicide is worse in the eyes of God than murder.

And Isabel didn't kill herself to prevent Mammon from coming to Earth. You're clearly confused.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

[–] metsgirl84 10 years ago

Why would you think she didn't throw herself off the building in order to stop Mammon? She knew about Mammon or she would not have left that "Corinthians 21" verse on the window for her sister to find. That verse specifically talked about how Mammon could come back to Earth and take over. How would she know anything about Hell's version of the Bible if she was not involved in this plot. She knew that Mammon needed a powerful psychic to be used as a sort of vessel so he can be born again, and she was the vessel. She had the "dark Bible's" symbol on her wrist, she had been chosen. If she had no idea what was going on, and it was simply Balthazar driving her insane, why leave the message with the secret verse to warn her sister?

[–] king_of_bob 10 years ago

Mammon caused her to kill herself. She clearly didn't stop anything by committing suicide. If anything, it only resulted in her sister being drawn into it.

why leave the message with the secret verse to warn her sister?

What you call a warning is actually drawing her sister into the situation. A warning doesn't work if the person it's intended for doesn't understand the message, does it?

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 10 years ago

Exactly. They're not taking an action with the specific intention of ending their life; they're acting with the specific intention of sparing someone else from death, their own sacrifice merely constituting an inadvertent consequence of that action.

Then again, I think the Catholic Church's attitude towards suicide is about as messed up as its can't it use towards homosexuality and abortion. I'd always encourage a person to choose life over death (although I do support legalised euthanasia in circumstances where life has become completely unbearable for an individual for untreatable medical reasons, and although lol other options have been ruled out) but I'd never judge anyone who has tried and failed to end their life.

[–] criztu 14 years ago

Eating is basically suicide: cells in the body are corroded by all sorts of stuff in our food, like free oxygen radicals in hydrogenated oil.
Or smoking: slow poisoning of the body.
Skipping sleep to go to the club: destroying cells in the body.
Inhaling CO2 car emissions because you choose to live in a polluted city: slow poisoning of the body.

Cutting wrists because you're depressed because you suffer hormonal imbalance - you go to hell!

Religion is Ignorance.

[–] turock 14 years ago

Not trying to be a jerk when I say this but depression is not caused by a hormonal imbalance.

Its caused by a chemical imbalance. The difference is horomnes are things like estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone.

Chemical imbalence are things like melatonin, seratonin, and a bunch of other onins lol.

Again not trying to be a troll just trying to clarify. Cheers :)

This message has been deleted by an administrator.

[–] glock78 14 years ago

Including viral infections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_%28mood%29

As for hormones vs. chemicals... What do you think hormones are made of? Pixie dust and objectivism wrapped in sonnets?
Hormones ARE chemicals.

Heck... if you want to go get semantical about it - everything is a chemical.
Well... everything existing on a molecular level.

Hormonal imbalance IS chemical imbalance.
Not necessarily vice versa - an injection of morphine will most certainly cause chemical imbalance, but not a hormonal one (at least not directly) as morphine is not a hormone.

As for hormones... It is simply a chemical secreted by the body, that transfers signals inside the body.

[–] Hythlodaeus 10 years ago

But the question is, is man merely the sum of his parts? Are there emergent properties of the system that are more complicated than the additive properties of each individual element? And even if we are, do we understand all those things? And of course, does man have a soul?

But for me the argument about depression vs chemicals is important for non-spiritual reasons and can be defined in secular or even materialist terms.

Man has volition. Man has will. The will is an important factor that cannot be discounted. Depending on the severity of the chemical imbalance (which may be mediated or even directly affected by the will more than we realize) - a man may have some ability to fight his illness or give in to it. Yet, this does not mean that a man suffering from illness should be condemned, but rather it means that he should always be encouraged to seek to will health, and use whatever tools he can to obtain it. But his will is crucial - it's not ALL chemicals.

Man is more than chemicals, more than biological determinism - or else, what is the point? Humanists usually aren't fatalists. Not even secular and materialist humanists.

What hump? 

[–] jimrazza 14 years ago

Eating is basically suicide

lol?

[–] mikekearn 14 years ago

According to the Catholic faith, suicide is the murder of the self. If you jump on a grenade because you want to kill yourself, that's suicide. If you jump on the grenade because ten of your solider buddies will die without your sacrifice, that's probably not suicide. In the end, the Catholics basically try to define what God's rules are in ways that apply to modern times. However, they will also admit that the only thing that truly matters is God's will, and His judgment is what decides everything.

As to the movie, it's not clear if Isabel's or Constantine's suicides would be properly considered sacrifices as opposed to murders of the self. Both of them killed themselves to try and stop Mammon from crossing over, but neither were left with that as the only option. They could have tried something else, as it's not their responsibility to protect the entirety of existence, leaving them with having knowingly killed themselves, which is a mortal sin.

-------------
"I will not succumb to temptation, unless she's cute."

[–] Miss_Sui_Generis 14 years ago

Falling upon a grenade to save one's comrades, a mother continuing a pregnancy which might kill her, pushing someone out of a burning building before saving oneself-none of these acts are considered suicide in Roman Catholicism. Killing oneself during a sudden psychotic break, a bad drug reaction, or during a bout of depression isn't considered suicide either. Sacrifice for others and mental instability affect intent, and intent counts.

Awareness of evil does carry the responsibility of trying to stop it, so it's possible that Constantine & Isabel would be allowed into Heaven for their sacrifices, or at least sent to Purgatory. Purgatory is the celestial appeals court of Catholic dogma.

In Wristcutters: A Love Story, all of the suicides go to Purgatory. GREAT movie.

[–] costumrs 12 years ago

Miss Sui Generis wrote

>>Awareness of evil does carry the responsibility of trying to stop it, so it's possible that Constantine & Isabel would be allowed into Heaven for their sacrifices, or at least sent to Purgatory. Purgatory is the celestial appeals court of Catholic dogma.<<

Actually it is not a court of appeals. It is a crucible for perfection. If you die and go to purgatory you are guaranteed entry to heaven. Purgatory is to perfect your soul.

[–] lorddeseiz 14 years ago

My experience with cathalcoholicism, or any other "faith". Dont start reasoning about it, or you soon will get a headache.
Any religious belief is total hypocritical *beep* and a remainder out of the middle ages. Other then it can be the base for some nice storys theres absolutly no use for it anymore.
Dont get it how people still are following that nonsense, it hasnt been proven plenty wich ever faith you wanna believe they all screw up sooner or later.
Religion = control the dumb masses.
_____________________
Any last words ?
Shut the *beep* up
-Mutant Chronicles-

[–] MissTexasMcCoy 12 years ago

My experience with cathalcoholicism, or any other "faith". Dont start reasoning about it, or you soon will get a headache.
Any religious belief is total hypocritical *beep* and a remainder out of the middle ages. Other then it can be the base for some nice storys theres absolutly no use for it anymore.
Dont get it how people still are following that nonsense, it hasnt been proven plenty wich ever faith you wanna believe they all screw up sooner or later.
Religion = control the dumb masses.

It'd be easier to take that post seriously if it weren't full of misspellings and grammatical errors. Be careful who you call dumb.

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"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way"
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(¸.•´ (¸.•´

[–] igotseriousskills 13 years ago

Im no christian but i thought it was only the catholic church that thought committing suicide sent one to hell. The reasoning i thought was that one has to confess to a priest to become forgiven of sins if you are catholic while other denominations just has to ask god. I believe the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of god.

[–] Hello_Sweetie 12 years ago

Actually the Catholic church has been treating suicide differently for a while. You're not of sound mind and only you & God know what your last thoughts were.

WORST. RESCUE. EVER.

[–] GunsGirlsCars 12 years ago

Masada?

[–] carlie1964 12 years ago

This part REALLY REALLY bothered me. The end was even strannger as did he really give selflessly by asking for the sister to be released from Hell? He already KNew HE WAS GOINGto hell SO WHY WAS THAT worthy enough to go to HEAVEN?

Want to change the world? Go home and love your family. Mother Teresa.

[–] 12 years ago

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