A tip isn't optional - Waiting... (2005) Discussion

[–] mikekester 15 years ago

A tip is 100% optional because it is based on service and customer satisfaction. You don't go into a restaurant (or a grocery store or dentist's office or anyplace else where someone serves you) and expect BAD service. You expect GOOD service i.e. to be waited on in a timely manner, to receive the food you ordered how you ordered it, and to be treated well.

If I feel like you did what was EXPECTED OF YOU, you get a tip. If not, you get nothing. Don't cry about it. Suck it up and learn how to do your job the way you're supposed to.

reply

[–] FeloniousPhunk 15 years ago

If tipping weren't an expected norm of dining out, then the wage laws wouldn't have tips built into the guidelines. The minimum wage for servers is so low exactly BECAUSE everyone expects that the server will get some sort of tip. Of course, the onus is on the server to earn it, but a server would have to be pretty crappy to get nothing from me at all. Now, if you're some sort of social misfit and just don't believe in tipping, (a la Mr. Pink), that's entirely up to you. Just don't frequent the same restaurants, or else you can expect your food to be messed with. But that's for another thread.

One thing that does irk me, though, is tip jars at fast food windows and beverage vendors (Starbucks, Mr. Smoothie, etc.) If I'm not getting a full meal and/or spending more than 10 minutes in your establishment, you're not getting a tip from me. Those are the places I NEVER tip. As many others have mentioned, tipping is for good service, not handing my food to me in a bag.

"If I'm not gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself."- Busta Rhymes

reply

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] louderthandrew 15 years ago

"One thing that does irk me, though, is tip jars at fast food windows and beverage vendors (Starbucks, Mr. Smoothie, etc.) If I'm not getting a full meal and/or spending more than 10 minutes in your establishment, you're not getting a tip from me. Those are the places I NEVER tip. As many others have mentioned, tipping is for good service, not handing my food to me in a bag."

I see your point here, definitely. And I wouldn't think you were a bastard for not tipping. For a brief period in my younger days, I worked in an ice cream joint. People tipped, occasionally, but because we were paid a livable wage, I never complained about nontippers. Was it nice to take home an extra few bucks on the spot? Of course. But at the end of the day, I still had a sizeable paycheck to cash every week.

I tend to toss some change or even a buck or two (depending on size of order and all that) when I'm swinging by an ice cream parlor or picking up donuts for the guys at work. That's less of a gratuity than it is making a name for myself as a tipper, honestly - the more places recognize my face as a guy willing to shell out a couple bucks for good service, the better my service will be. It's just strategy on my part, and it helps when I'm running late to work. :)

reply

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] FeloniousPhunk 15 years ago

It is a horrible system. But I'd rather live in America than Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Somalia or any other of ther hundreds of piss-poor countries out there.

"If I'm not gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself."- Busta Rhymes

reply

[–] bgsmith33 15 years ago

What does that have to do with anything?

reply

[–] DarkRealityX 15 years ago

Not going to read nine pages, but I did read the first one.

Tipping is optional, I believe, but I also believe that not tipping, as a rule, say more about the patron than the waitstaff. Because I do believe in tipping, and I tip about 15% (take 15% and then round up to the next dollar) for decent to good service, though I'm not shy about tipping 20-25% for good to great service. While I do feel that restaurants should pay their people and that it should be a crime that they don't, I do understand why it is the way it is.

I also believe that if money is an issue, you should save your money and eat at home, or hit the drive-thru. Save your money for when you can afford to eat out. As an amateur chef (not really, I'm just being a little pretentious) I can cook a few things better than I've had in a restaurant -- a burger being one of them (dead serious). If I want good food, I can just as soon make it as order it at a restaurant. Going out to eat is purely for convenience and atmosphere. A luxury. If you can't pay, I really don't think you should be there. And I'm a working man, and I make under ten dollars an hour. But I pay my way.

Note that I was careful to state this as my opinion. If you're against tipping, I disagree with you, but I'm not trying to say you're wrong or that I'm better. It's just how I was raised. Tipping is a part of having manners. Saying please and thank you, sir and ma'am, opening doors for ladies, and showing courtesy for the young and elderly. None of it is legally required, it's just a standard I choose to hold myself to.

- Dark Reality

reply

[–] z74neo 14 years ago

Okay, I just posted to another thread on this same topic and it's a bit long, so I won't express all my points all over again. I realize I'm a little late addressing the OP and I haven't read through all the rest of the posts, but here's what I have to say anyway:

I can't see how I'm "hiring" a waiter to bring the food I'm already paying for when there's no other way for me to get it. If this were so, then it's no longer a "tip", it's a SERVICE CHARGE. Like valet. But a service charge for valet makes sense because usually I also have the option to park the car myself. In a sit-down restaurant, there is no other way for me to get the food I'm already paying for, so I have to be served or else it complete defeats the purpose. Why then should there be a service charge--in other words why should I be paying for my food twice?

I have recently discovered that many places pay the waiters only $2-$3 minimum wage because the rest is expected to be earned through tips. Is this ALSO reflected in the price of food? You're a manager (on the off chance you're still paying attention to this thread), perhaps you--or anyone else--have some insight on this: are we the customers actually paying LESS than we normally pay for restaurant food because we are now expected to pay the waiters? Has the price of restaurant food actually gone DOWN since the minimum wage for waiters came into effect?

ALL servers SHOULD be paid the SAME minimum wage by the RESTAURANT as every other hard-working person in this country. BAD servers should be reprimanded or FIRED. That's how it works with everything else, so I don't understand this. If there's anyone who can expect anything, it's the customer. We are already paying for eating at your restaurant, so we expect our food freshly brought to us as ordered, in a timely and professional manner. When I see $15-$20 on a menu for a simple plate of food, that is what I expect to be paying for. A tip is only deserved by a waiter who goes beyond this expectation. Now, I personally happen to tip routinely just out of etiquette and "social obligation". I am aware that it has become "expected". We sadly live in a society/generation of "entitlement". People are expected to offer help, no one has to ask for it anymore, because no one likes to hear "no". Gift-giving is no longer pure generosity from the heart, but social, obligational proof of "where one stands" in regards to another. This is why no one appreciates anything and everyone's so neurotic and insecure. But I'll be damned if I feel obligated to pay extra to a waiter simply because the restaurant won't pay them. That is just wrong. We probably should just eat at home, boycotting restaurants, and waiters across the country should strike.

reply

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

It seems you understand how the system works. Yes, a tip in a restaurant is really a tip in name only. "Service charge" is a much more accurate way to describe it. I partially agree with the argument that servers should be paid a fair wage by the restaurant, and not expect customers to pay them directly. However, there's an advantage with the system as it is:

-The tipping system encourages good service, since the customer can refuse payment for bad service

-It encourages upselling (since tips are usually based on a % of the check, it works like a commission)

-It's difficult for servers to unionize, because they're so easily replaceable. Thus, a strike wouldn't be very effective.

-Elimination of the tipping system would increase the menu price of food, so you'll be spending the same amount of money that you normally do (non or low tippers would be spending more).

-The tipping system is so ingrained in our culture that it would be difficult to stop. Imagine being the first restaurant to implement it - anyone who doesn't know not to tip would think your food is way overpriced, and reminding folks not to tip their server just seems... tacky. Either way, it would likely hurt business.

Okay, anecdote time:

Many new servers (usually teenagers) have an attitude problem when they start their job. They want to make decent money, but with the least amount of work possible. They often aren't that friendly to customers, and they don't upsell ("How about an appetizer? Would you like to add a salad to that for $1.99? Will you be having dessert tonight? etc.), and as a result, their tips are lower (say, 10% on $25 as opposed to 20% on $40). It doesn't take long for them to realize (sometimes with a little coaching by career servers/managers) that they'll make more money if they make the customer feel welcome, and encourage them to spend more money.

Before long, they've learned the ropes, and are an asset to the restaurant rather than a liability. Without tipping, a lot of these potentially great servers will either be fired or work just hard enough to not get fired.

reply

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

@z74neo:

You seem interested in when a tip was actually a tip (gratuity). I'm not exactly a historian on the subject, but this is roughly my understanding:

Long ago (not sure when exactly), the majority of restaurants were family establishments, meaning, they were run by one guy, with the help of his wife, kids, etc. Maybe they had one paid employee who was a friend of the family. You get the idea. In that case, when you paid for your food, your money went to the family. If you left a tip, it was a way of thanking the person for great food, service, etc. So the person you were tipping was the owner.

Eventually, the family decided to hire a neighborhood kid to wait on customers during the busy hours after school. The kid would get to keep whatever tips the customers left.

Eventually, the restaurant had too many customers at all hours of the day for the kid to handle. So the restaurant hired an adult to work full time as a server. He also got paid a small amount to in addition to his tips, probably as a 'safety net' for slow days.

As hiring full-time servers became common practice, more people began to look for work in the food service industry. That meant stiffer competition. Customers would pay more for better service, so the average tip began to increase (an extra nickel became an extra quarter, became 5%, 10%, 15%, etc.), as did the professionalism of servers.

Today, 'family-owned restaurants' often employ 20+ people, and are pretty much identical in service and atmosphere to their corporate counterparts (from the customer's perspective, that is). An average tip is 18%, and servers are paid $2-3 per hour. Food prices have gone up with inflation, as have wages for servers, though at a much slower rate (because their primary income is from tips).

So, that's my understanding of how a tip in a restaurant evolved into a de facto service charge.

reply

[–] z74neo 14 years ago

Thanks for the informative responses. You bring up some interesting points. But I do feel a problem I'm suspicious of still remains: restaurants seem to be making more money than they "deserve" by basically witholding pay from their employees and are banking on "customer tradition" to pick up the tab.

In response to your post:

The tipping system encourages good service, since the customer can refuse payment for bad service... It encourages upselling (since tips are usually based on a % of the check, it works like a commission)

Actually, from what I'm hearing (as even stated in the OP's post), in a way, you can't refuse payment. You'd be breaking a "major social taboo". Waiters have come to expect tips, regardless of the quality of their service, because that's their main source of income. Since the restaurants don't pay them enough, we the customer are expected to pay them for simply doing their job. I mean, that's whole topic of this thread, isn't it? "A tip isn't optional."

Now, I've worked in customer service. And based on my experiences I know I would never want to wait tables. I can understand that it's not an easy job. But you see, I do know what it's like to have a rush of people expecting you to attend their "every need" (of course in regards to the particular place of patronage), all at once, and at the same time have the managers breathing down your neck to upsell, all while maintaining a courteous attitude and professional disposition (I've worked for a shopping center food court, a multiplex movie theater, and blockbuster video). Yet, this was my JOB. It's what the companies were paying me for. If were to perform these tasks poorly, I was either reprimanded or faced with termination. And all the customer was responsible for was paying the price of the products. Why are restaurants any different?

Elimination of the tipping system would increase the menu price of food, so you'll be spending the same amount of money that you normally do (non or low tippers would be spending more)

So, you are saying that the menu price of food is actually REDUCED for the customer to compensate for their being "expected" to pay tips? In other words, restaurants are not actually just pocketing more money than they normally would if they paid their own employees enough? ...Really?

reply

[–] Jack-Daniels-Fan 14 years ago

Elimination of the tipping system would increase the menu price of food, so you'll be spending the same amount of money that you normally do (non or low tippers would be spending more)

So, you are saying that the menu price of food is actually REDUCED for the customer to compensate for their being "expected" to pay tips? In other words, restaurants are not actually just pocketing more money than they normally would if they paid their own employees enough? ...Really?

Actually it's more like restaurants charge a price they want regardless of whether they pay their staff a decent wage. It's just that if the law actually required them to stop treating their staff like desperate illegal aliens and instead like actual citizens of the country in which the reside, work and pay taxes, or at least as human beings and not livestock to be squeezed dry and ridden till death, they would simply up the prices of every item on their menu by at least 25% to not only cover the money they should be paying their employees, but also to make even more profit off of you as they see any change that deprives them of the right to exploit other human beings as a breach of their fundamental right as capitalists.

In short, the government are cheap bastards for taxing someone on "expected tips" based on the total of each bill, regardless of whether they receive them or not, the food industry owners are cheap bastards for exploiting people who are just trying to make an honest living, and the customers are cheap bastards for refusing to tip for the service they receive despite the fact that they can just as easily go into a take-away or self-service eatery where the staff are paid proper wages. But that would be asking them too much now wouldn't it?

reply

[–] z74neo 14 years ago

So it's true then? Well, I'm not surprised if it is.

But in defense of the cheap-bastard customers, take-away or self-service eateries don't usually have the same quality of food as sit-down restaurants, now do they? Of course it stands to reason that if one expects higher quality, one should expect to pay more--which is exactly the case, I just expect that out of the higher prices, service is also included since in these places, you can't serve yourself.

I have nothing against tipping. I just don't like the idea that I'm *expected* to tip, regardless of the quality of service, simply because the waiters aren't getting paid enough. And I do it anyway, mind you. But it's occurred to me recently that there's something underhanded going on, and instead of everyone complaining from all sides, why don't we all do something about it to change this system so that waiters get paid proper wages, while the menu price of food remains reasonable, and tips are actually what they are supposed to be: an optional bonus to be given at the discretion of the customer for service that goes beyond the requirements of the job. Something needs to be done...

...I'm gonna make a documentary.

reply

[–] Jack-Daniels-Fan 14 years ago

But in defense of the cheap-bastard customers, take-away or self-service eateries don't usually have the same quality of food as sit-down restaurants, now do they?

Not really. I much prefer a buffet than most restaurants with waiters, mostly because they get so busy that it's humanly impossible for you to get served at a decent pace when 1 waiter has 10-12 tables to attend to simultaneously. So either way, your food is never "right off the grill" so to speak. I much prefer going at my own pace, getting up to refill my plate whenever I feel like it rather than wait in line behind another slew of tables to get my new order in. And perhaps most importantly, in a buffet, if I don't like my first dish, I can just get another one at not extra cost, so I cant find something I like and not worry about the portions being so minuscule.

I have nothing against tipping. I just don't like the idea that I'm *expected* to tip, regardless of the quality of service, simply because the waiters aren't getting paid enough.

I agree. That's why in most European countries tipping is seen as a gratuity to be dispensed at the discretion of the customer in response for a service they deemed to be above the standard of that which is generally expected. But of course, the waiter gets paid his full salary none-the-less, and does not get taxed on the extra money he receives.

This is what really pisses me off about the American mentality towards tipping. They see it as them being generous when in fact that are actually TAKING money away from the waiters if they don't tip, and also, why are waiters the only profession where it is necessary for them to do more than what's in their job description in order to receive basic pay?

If a plumber gets a call to unclog a pipe and does so without being particularly friendly (just basic "hello, how are you" etc routine) no one would ever with-hold partial payment from them for lack of proper service now would they?

So why should a waiter be expected to do anything other than politely take and order and bring the food/drinks? As far as I'm concerned, any waiter who says "hello, how are you", "what can I get you" and "enjoy" when they bring my order, all with a polite smile are doing exactly what they are supposed to. When they sit there and chat to me for 2-3 minutes, listen to me talking about whatever and whoever, they 're doing something that's NOT in their job description OR requirement, so I should be leaving a tip for that little extra mile they went to accommodate me.

why don't we all do something about it to change this system so that waiters get paid proper wages, while the menu price of food remains reasonable, and tips are actually what they are supposed to be

Because it's a cultural mentality thing in the US (and other countries I'm sure). They don't deem a waiter to be important enough to receive basic pay and the power-trip people get from making people basically grovel and bow for their payment really does make a lot of sad little people feel better about themselves, most likely because in their own lives, both personal and professional, they exert so little authority and probably don't command any respect that their few moments when they stiff or are about to stiff the waiter on a tip makes their ego swell and keeps them from going home to shoot themselves.

reply

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

@z74neo:

I was going to respond to your post, but after reading Jack-Daniels-Fan's posts, I have nothing substantial to add.

@Jack-Daniels-Fan:

I see you have good taste in bourbon. :)

/Jim Beam tastes like @$$

reply

[–] dalejrfan01 14 years ago

Those of you that don't tip without any good reason...we remember you when you come back. I'm not going to mess with your food or anything nasty like that (I can't guarantee that other servers wouldn't), but it may take me a while to refill your drink, or bring extra napkins, or pay attention to you, really. Precedence goes to the other tables who I at least know I have a chance of getting a tip from. These tips are how I make my living. You know what is right or wrong, or you should. Most people tip. That alone should tell you it's expected. That and the fact that enough people tip us that we're taxed upon it. Don't be jackasses. If you don't want lousy service, take care of your server.

reply

[–] FeloniousPhunk 14 years ago

Just a note to the people commenting on how the tip system affects menu prices. I mentioned this in a previous post, but its worth reiterating. The tip system today, as you've mentioned, is more of an overhead reducing tool than anything. The profit margins of the restaurant business are notoriously low, so restaurants (both corporate and mom and pop) need to employ whatever means they legally can to remain viable.

Think of it this way. On a busy night, you have maybe 15 servers on your books for $2-$3 an hour. If you have to start paying them minimum wage, now you have to double or triple that. I understand that the pay is ridiculously low, but imagine if you've been running a business and you suddenly had to triple the wage of the majority if your workers. What would you do? You'd raise the prices of your product. Sure, you might lay a person or two off, but a restaurant can only get by with so few staff before the quality of service begins to seriously lack. As it is, restaurants send servers (and cooks) home as soon as they're no longer needed. A restaurant tries to operate with the bare minimum staff at all times. So, in a business model that requires a relatively high number of staff to maintain the required level of service, the only response to higher wage demands is to raise prices. So, do you really want to pay $20 for that steak you used to get for $12, when you can just add $3 voluntarily? If you don't like tipping, go to places where you're not served at your table. It's part of the experience.

"If I'm not gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself."- Busta Rhymes

reply

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

Things work differently in the US. Servers here are paid less than minimum wage, which is only legal because they are expected -by the US government- to make most of their living from tips.

My comments aren't meant to apply in the UK, or anywhere else outside the US.

reply

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

It sort of grew organically out of small, family owned restaurants, and has become so ingrained in our culture that it's nigh impossible to change.

I gave a much more lengthy explanation a few posts up.

reply

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] FeloniousPhunk 14 years ago

Because the US government cares more about businesses than individuals.

"If I'm not gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself."- Busta Rhymes

reply

[–] lju3 14 years ago

Tipping is absolutely optional, as it should be. The point of a tip is, very simply, to give the waiter an incentive to provide good service. This is why service in many restaurants in Europe is so often sub-par, unless you are lucky enough to get a professional waiter who is very serious about his job. In this country, a waiter who does a good job should be compensated well, and a waiter who performs poorly should be compensated poorly. Tipping no matter what--especially tipping highly no matter what--flies in the face of what tipping is meant to do, as it removes the incentive structure from this compensation system.

Now, you might argue that tipping is not optional inasmuch as a person ought to always tip, commensurate with the level of service provided. I'm sympathetic to that argument, and certainly think that stiffing your waiter should be reserved for truly bad service. The fact remains, however, that it is up to the customer to decide what he will tip, or whether he will tip at all, and thus tipping is, by definition, optional.

reply

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Iron_Gland 14 years ago

I only tip when I get exceptional service. Besides, all the server does is take my order, give it to the chef, and bring the meal to my table. I'd say that job deserves minimum wage. It is ridiculous to say that a tip is mandatory. If they don't like the pay, get another job. I would much rather tip the chef for a good meal than the person who takes my order. I understand that some people are obnoxious and treat servers like crap, but why should I have to pay because someone else abuses you???? I am a very polite diner, and if I feel the server did an extraordinary job, they will get a nice tip. If all I get is, "Can I take your order?" "Is everything Ok?"(Which is really annoying, they always ask this when I have a mouthful of food) and "Thank you", don't expect much of a tip. If any part of my order is wrong, don't expect a tip at all.

We made a land where crap is king, and the good don't last too long.

reply

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

As I've already stated, servers don't get minimum wage. The guy at McDonald's makes more per hour than a server at a fancy steakhouse. It would be illegal to pay an employee so little, except the servers are expected to get tips, for which they are taxed, even if they don't get tips. So any server you've stiffed had to pay taxes on the money you didn't give him.

So what makes working for you such an honor that your server should pay you to do it?

reply

[–] Iron_Gland 14 years ago

That is the job the server chose, if he/she doesn't want to get stiffed, they should put in the extra effort. If I am not doing my job correctly, my boss could send me home and dock my pay. Since I am the servers boss, he/she is expected to perform at a high level, for my dining enjoyment. Also, I don't care about the government taxing their tips, the government taxes everything, they take one third of my paycheck, so the tips should be taxed.

We made a land where crap is king, and the good don't last too long.

reply

[–] louderthandrew 14 years ago

Anybody who says "I only tip for exceptional service" really means to say "I never tip." Just a thought.

reply

[–] ipacac22 14 years ago

I'm not gonna bother to read the whole thread. Bottom line is, if the service is good expect the tip to be, if the service sucks expect the tip to.

Utah! Get me two.

reply

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Iron_Gland 13 years ago

I tip often, because I consider exceptional service to be:
1. Be polite
2. Get my order correct
3. Be prompt - I am understanding when a restaurant is busy, but cannot stand when servers ignore my table to talk with friends or on their phones.

I don't think that is a lot to ask for when I am paying their salary. Just a thought.

We made a land where crap is king, and the good don't last too long.

reply

[–] sagerbj 14 years ago

if a waitress or waiter sucks, and its because of things they can control (not quality of food or if its really busy) then yeah, they don't deserve a tip.

reply

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] louderthandrew 13 years ago

Well, in the sense that if you don't tip, you are - factually - stealing from the server, it SHOULD be everybody else's problem. If you're content to look the other way while people rob working-class employees blind, that's your call, but for everyone that isn't an awful person, it's kind of a big deal.

reply

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] HaroldCarter 14 years ago

A tip is optional, unless it's included as part of the bill. I think what you really mean is that it shouldn't be optional. But in most cases it is optional.

If I get good service, I make sure to tip. If a server is exceptional, then I'll even tip if it's already part of the bill. But it's not a given, the server has to earn it.

reply