MovieChat Forums > The Last Samurai (2003) Discussion > OK, so apparently you could become a sam...

OK, so apparently you could become a samurai with a few month's training

posted 10 years ago by al666940-3
28 replies | jump to latest

At least Tom Cruise did in the movie (how is he NOT to be considered one?):
- He's become just as good as their chief swordsman (in their duel they both achieve a killing stroke)
- He's allowed to wear armour and both swords (NOBODY but a samurai was allowed to do that by other samurai)
- Even before being captured and drunk, he was so good he killed like 10 in the first battle.

Gee, so much for all their dedication and lifelong training if just about anybody (an alcoholic washed out westerner 100% unfamiliar with their culture/ways) can match them after a few months.

Maybe because Algren is well, white?

Of course (that also makes him apparently invulnerable to machine gun rounds), but the Japanese are also considered "white" by most westerners (since they beat Russia at war, they earned the respect only afforded to Europeans and refused to pretty much anyone colonized by Europeans), so that shouldn't matter much.

[–] the_bamboo_spear 10 years ago

Well Algren probably had more experience than 99 percent of the Samurai of that era, who were mostly bureaucrats by then. He was already a better shot than all of them, more experienced in modern weapons, probably a better horseman, capable with a cavalry sabre, and despite being a drunk, in good shape.

As for swordsmanship, he spent an entire season there, training with the best of the best, daily. It wouldn't take a lifetime to achieve competence with the Japanese sword if you had daily instruction. That's a convention of modern martial arts. Back then, you trained hard and were ready to fight by the time you were a teenager. Military training was more like Boot Camp than a modern dojo.

As for his "promotion", it wasn't unheard of. Samurai was a social caste, but Ashigaru had been known to achieve the status during war. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was one of the "Big Three" during the Sengoku period, and he started out as a peasant soldier.

Anyways, the swords and armor were a formality, or strictly utilitarian during the battle, as the Samurai class had been abolished and disarmed by then, so Algren couldn't have been a Samurai any more than I could be promoted to Knight.

[–] al666940-3 10 years ago

"Algren probably had more experience than 99 percent of the Samurai of that era, who were mostly bureaucrats by then."

Not sure about that:
- They were warring each other constantly (other samurai groups) so they didn't lack any battlefield experience.
- Algren had experience doing what exactly? Shooting women and children and scalping (which was in fact introduced by the US Cavalry)? And unless them indians had their own swords to duel with the US solders, what sword experience could Algren have beyond clearing bush and hacking away machete style? The US frontier soldiers of then were no swordsmen of any kind. Bayonet fighting, I'll give you that (which would account for him being able to use a spear effectively).

Any soldier like Algren would be far more likely to have axe/knife experience instead (them tomahawks).

"As for swordsmanship, he spent an entire season there, training with the best of the best, daily."

So did everybody there (they sure didn't spend their time farming, that was for the ladies). So unless after a while they all reach a plateau and just maintain a consistent skill level, there's no way he would have matched them anytime. Like saying an adult who picks up figure skating can match up an Olympic gold medalist (who's trained nonstop since childhood) after a winter of practice.

"As for his "promotion", it wasn't unheard of."

I don't question that, just that he managed to catch up at all, never mind so quickly.

More Katsumoto and less Algren would've made a better movie

[–] SpiltPersonality 10 years ago

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about.

- They were warring each other constantly (other samurai groups) so they didn't lack any battlefield experience.

The Sengoku (Warring States) period ended in 1603, over 250 years before the events portrayed in this movie. During the Edo period the Tokugawa basically ruled everything, and there was no real clan warfare. At best they had schools which taught bushido.

- Algren had experience doing what exactly? Shooting women and children and scalping (which was in fact introduced by the US Cavalry)? And unless them indians had their own swords to duel with the US solders, what sword experience could Algren have beyond clearing bush and hacking away machete style? The US frontier soldiers of then were no swordsmen of any kind. Bayonet fighting, I'll give you that (which would account for him being able to use a spear effectively).

Algren (fictitious as he was) was supposedly a member of the 7th Cavalry and a Medal of Honor winner. Even though the Indian wars was very one sided, congress don't give away Medals of Honor in Wheaties packs, despite practically every American serviceman in a movie having one.

So did everybody there (they sure didn't spend their time farming, that was for the ladies).

Oh FFS. It was a caste system. It wasn't 'ladies' who farmed, it was the farming caste, exactly the same as feudal Europe. I've had enough now, you clearly know nothing about Japan or its culture.

SpiltPersonality

[–] al666940-3 10 years ago

You be sorry, because I'm talking about the MOVIE, as inaccurate as it may be:

"and there was no real clan warfare"

Katsumoto states that his sword (and implied all his guy's also) previously protected the council. If that is not enough practice then what is? Plus raiding trains...

"Even though the Indian wars was very one sided, congress don't give away Medals of Honor in Wheaties packs,"

Two words: Jessica Lynch. Look up her list of medals and awards just for being captured:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#Awards_and_decorations

The Army sure has a track record of handing out medals like candy to boost morale during unpopular wars.

"It was a caste system. It wasn't 'ladies' who farmed, it was the farming caste, exactly the same as feudal Europe."

That is NOT what the movie depicts, as inaccurate as it may be (for you're quite right). Then again they neither depict a samurai trying out his sword on the first poor slob who happens to be within arm's stroke.

You'll have to do better than that...

[–] the_bamboo_spear 10 years ago

Regardless, Indian raids versus train raids... Algren had as much combat experience as the Samurai, and knew more about modern warfare, weapons and tactics. If he spent a season training with Ujio, there's no reason he couldn't be as good as most of the other guys.

He was able to match Ujio because of Ai-Uchi, which basically means you throw away your life to slay the other guy. Killing the opponent is easy if you're not trying to stay alive.

There's nothing magical about the Samurai arts - fencing, wrestling, riding, archery, etc. Algren was an experienced, professional soldier, he picked these things up quickly. I've trained with Rangers who accomplish in a few weeks training what "regular" people take months or years to do. They have the drive, discipline, focus, physical conditioning, things like that.

[–] Phydeaux50 10 years ago

The OP wants to bleed his heart's blood all over the board; it's all about 'white bashing'. There's no basis for truth in the assertions of a zealot- that would defeat the purpose of being a zealot. One becomes a zealot to push an otherwise unsupportable agenda. If it was supportable, said individual wouldn't need to be a zealot; they could just say what's what just as you have, the_bamboo_spear.

Simple equation for the OP- if it is wrong for white people to oppress, victimise or otherwise single out any group, then it is wrong for any other group to do the same- particularly if that is what they are objecting to in the first place. If it is wrong then is is wrong, no matter who does it. If it is only wrong for some then it is not a moral stand. That's fine if the OP is willing to accept that he/she has one rule for him/herself and another for people he/she feels can be singled out with impunity. But if it is s'posed to be some sort of bleeding heart liberal moral stand, then the OP's position is an epic fail.

I can't imagine why.

[–] Elephantlips 9 years ago

Yeah, I let the first post slide, then when I read his second post I immediately knew what he was up to.

He's looking to start a white-bashing thread but he's finding very little support for his twisted little illogical essay.

[–] R_Kane (15828) a year ago

The Samurai train at bushijitsu, not bushido, which is mainly a hobby.

[–] pathofthesword 9 years ago

Months? You can simply be a adopted by a samurai family and become one.

[–] Blueghost 8 years ago

Would it make a difference if he was black or Latin American?

Go watch "A Man Called Horse". It's another "white man's fantasy" film. And think of how many non-white people like films dealing with European knights.

[–] rotunjere 8 years ago

Many have already mentioned it is not inconceivable for Algren to achieve what he did due to his experience, skill etc. I just want to add one more fact to confirm all these, everyone obviously thought he was an extremely valuable asset, including Omura and Custer so much so that they had to beg him for his services and pay him huge amounts. Omura even preferred to have Algren be the general. Custer would be the person who knew exactly what Algren could do and thought it best if Algren was on their side. Obviously not just killing kids. You'd think he can learn sword fighting in months.

He was proficient because that was what he was good at. Not because he was white. If anything, almost all the white characters died, with the exception of Graham the novelist.

[–] joegerardi (383) 5 years ago

Or go look up William Adams, who in 1600 indeed became a samurai. Not only that, he was made Hatamoto- Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu's personal retainer.

He was the basis for the John Blackthorne character in Shogun.

..Joe

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I LOVE the Shogun TV show with Richard Chamberlain! I particularly love his "occupation" name, mainly "pilot", or "Anjin-san" as he was always referred to by the Japanese! Man, I must've watched that TV show half a dozen times!

[–] joegerardi (383) 5 years ago

He was called "Anjin-san" because the Japanese could not pronounce "Blackthorne." In the book, they closest they got was "Br-ack-fon," so they specifically told him they used "Anjin-san" out of politeness and to show no disrespect.

In "Noble House" there was a Japanese woman sent to meet Ian (Struan) Dunross who was named "Riko noh Anjin," and she told the legend that an ancestor was an Englishman who was made samurai, but that her family believed it was only a legend.

Clavell really tied all the books together in "Noble House." It was the cement that combined all the books in his Asian Saga and was arguably his best work.

Rumor has it that HBO has optioned the book "Shogun," and will be remaking it. That's a good thing. It's so dense that it really needs a long-form mini series.

..Joe

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

There's nothing wrong with the Richard Chamberlain one. I'm sick of remakes, for one thing.

[–] joegerardi (383) 5 years ago

There's lots of things wrong with it. Mostly, because it was a broadcast television version, the violence was sanitized, the sexual mores were absent, and the budget was limited in terms of cast involved.

The book was a sweeping, grand epic, and the TV version was a nice little miniseries. I enjoyed it - in fact I own it - but it does not have the impact that a version not limited by broadcast standards.

..Joe

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

True. Also the movie cast actors that are pleasing to the eyes of the audience to achieve easily disgestable tale (in this case to show that Japanese and Americans are equals. Which is true, but as movies are visual medium, it's easier if they also look not very different in size.)

In reality, Japanese people at the time were small. Even by East Asian standard, olden time Japanese were considered smaller and shorter. Americans were way bigger and taller.

It is most likely if this movie was real, Algren would easily overpower any samurai by using his physical strenght. Let alone the fact that he was also a talented battle-hardened professional soldier.

It's like a boxing match between different weight classes. Technique would matter less.

[–] SenatePalpatine (2) 5 years ago

Yeah if he was black or latin american the movie would have bombed in the US and the backlash would be enormous just like Finn's character in star wars, don't be silly. I am american and would have preferred a japanese actor as algren

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

Lol.

[–] SenatePalpatine (2) 5 years ago

Why do you "Lol" are you 12 years old? Can't you communicate like a proper adult?

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

Bruh.

[–] avortac4 (3743) 3 years ago

What makes you think Algren became a samurai? He didn't. The Japanese will never let foreigners become 'japanese' - why would samurai allow him to become 'samurai'?

In any case, the reason why he becomes good at fighting is because he's ALREADY a good fighter, has lots of experience of various weapons and melee and ranged fighting. It's not that big a stretch that some group could hone his skills by letting him train with them for the better part of a year every single day, when he's really motivated as well.

He's a special case that's proven to be on their side, saving lives of many by killing 'his own', so he has earned the dead man's armor. Also, he killed the 'husband' fair and square just before the 'husband' would've killed him. He proved to be better than the particular individual in combat, thus proving himself in war situation (which is what can earn you a 'de-facto samurai' status).

Algren wasn't just some regular dude (why the racism anyway? Are you a racist because it's ok to hate white people?), he was highly skilled and experienced war veteran that had been in combat a LOT.

When you watch this movie and look at everything Algren does and sacrifices, how would he _NOT_ have earned the armor and the samurai status?

[–] joegerardi (383) 3 years ago

"What makes you think Algren became a samurai? He didn't. The Japanese will never let foreigners become 'japanese' - why would samurai allow him to become 'samurai'?"

Not true. Look up William Adams, the basis of the character John Blackthorne in "Shogun. He was made Hatamoto (personal retainer) to Tokugawa Ieyasu, and when asked, Ieyasu stated that yes, Adams WAS a samurai.

..Joe

[–] TimeTunnel (4769) a year ago

Yes, William Adams probably was the first European Samurai.
But it's rare.

Like Ryu Otsuka is a true Blue Eye Samurai. 💙
https://the-samurai-mind.com/?page_id=1375

[–] AmeriGirl26 (14382) 3 years ago

You do realize that it's a common trope in films to speed up time so the audience doesn't get bored, and it's normal for heroes to train for a short time before going off to be the hero.

And to be fair, he was just borrowing the armor, he wasn't a genuine samurai.

It's all about the symbolism involved in the film. You need to look at the symbols in order for any of it to make sense. To take it on face value isn't a very intelligent way of assessing a film.

[–] R_Kane (15828) a year ago

Lack of intelligence (or maturity, or class, or dignity, or of relationship skills ON THE INTERNET? The hell you say!!

[–] TimeTunnel (4769) a year ago

It's nice when you get involved so quickly. 💙
2 posts within 2 mins...within 5 mins after my reply in this thread. ☺

[–] AmeriGirl26 (14382) a year ago

*gasp* Are you saying most of today's audiences are immature and stupid?! Say it ain't so!