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The Boss, Jehovah, the Old Time Religion and our own self-respect

posted 11 years ago by joel-280
20 replies | jump to latest

My comments focus on the ending of Dogville. The Boss, revealed to be Grace’s father, comes to Dogville, rescues Grace and metes out terrible punishment on the town and all its inhabitants for their atrocious behavior. Grace at first protests, ready to forgive them, but is convinced by the Boss’s arguments that respect for the residents implies that they must be held accountable for their actions.

In this interpretation, the Boss is God (and in particular he is the Old Testament Jehovah) and Grace (note the name) is Christ. The Boss, as Jehovah, is all about right action, reward and punishment; humans need to follow his rules, and if humans break the rules they are in lots of trouble. Grace, as Christ, is all about love and forgiveness; humans are imperfect by nature, they are bound to break God’s rules, and they must be forgiven when they do so.

What makes this interesting is The Boss’s convincing Grace that her forgiveness implies a lack of respect for humanity. If humans are to be respected they must be held to account for their behavior and, if it merits punishment, they must be punished. And the punishment comes in this world; the movie has no reference to heaven, hell, or anything about an afterlife. According to the movie, Jehovah respects humanity while the Christian God/Christ disrespects us; indeed, treats us with even less respect than one might treat a child, or even a dog (!) who should be forgiven but also should be trained to follow the rules, as the Boss mentions to Grace. Until her conversion, however, Grace is not interested in holding people to account, nor even in teaching them to act better. She simply accepts them as they are. By forgiving the people their atrocious behavior, without protest or any other attempt to reform them, she shows less respect for the people of Dogville than one would show a dog.

The bottom line here is a view that the Christian God’s love and forgiveness demean us; if we need a god and also have some self-respect, we should pick the demanding and unforgiving Old Testament Jehovah, rather than the loving and forgiving God/Christ of the New Testament.

Instead of the Christian story that God sacrificed His son, allowing men to torture and execute Him, to wash away the sins of humanity, in Dogville God and Christ do just the opposite. The Boss/Jehovah rescues his daughter Christ from the cruelty of humans, and then persuades her not to forgive but rather to punish. Jehovah converts Christ back to the Old Time, Old Testament religion. Grace pronounces the people of Dogville a blight on the world and assents when the Boss gives the order to kill them and to burn the town to the ground, just as Jehovah did with the flood and in Sodom and Gomorrah. Grace herself executes Tom, remarking immediately afterward to the Boss, “Some things you have to do yourself,” which may well be another reference to the vengeful Jehovah. And then, in what is almost a Hollywood ending, Jehovah and the reformed Christ drive off together, presumably to reign rigorously ever after.

[–] Jerry-137 11 years ago

In this interpretation...

Did you mean "In my interpretation"? If not, whose is it?

While somewhat interesting your interpretation doesn't quite agree with the reality of (most) Christian actions. I mentioned it before in another thread that Christians, at least in the U.S. and formally world-wide, believe in capital punishment. The death penalty for NAZI leaders is a good example and present day punishment for murder in many cases. Especially for cop killers and pedophile murderers. IMO life imprisonment is worse than the death penalty but not everyone would agree. Although the belief in the death penalty has been changing it's still the law in many states and even federal law in some cases.

So while the Christ analogy to Grace is based on forgiveness that doesn't mean that believers don't think that some must forfeit their life for some crimes.

In Grace's thought process she finally sees the townsfolk as morally corrupt, evil to the core, and with no hope for redeeming values even if she did forgive them. She surmised the same thing could happen again if another troubled stranger happened to come along and ask for asylum.

So I don't think she gave up forgiveness in general, she realizes it depends on the circumstances. As her father explained in the dog conversation, after a while of trying to train the dog to obey the rules and it doesn't work one has no choice but to get rid of the dog. I don't think the father looked on it as human morality as much as sort of a rule of life in general. Like, the old adage, "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you." In his case if they don't do as you would like them to do after you have tried to treat them fairly, you have no choice but to punish them severely or society as he interprets it would be torn apart.

Personally, I feel Grace's decision was correct. These people were so far gone, having no hope of a better life by self-improvement, there was no hope in reforming them, and quite likely they would repeat the same errors in judgment in the future. Plus, the repeated wrongs that they committed on her led her to the final judgment on them.

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My favorite: Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

[–] shempXIV 11 years ago

re: She surmised the same thing could happen again if another troubled stranger happened to come along and ask for asylum.

Yup!

This is one "justification" (if one needs it) for "punishment" -- if there is no punishment, the perpetrator has ABSOLUTELY NO INCENTIVE or reason to alter his or her dastardly behavior. Depending on one's point of view, "not punishing" is the same as "encouraging" bad behavior...like if you don't "discipline" a child, s/he grows up thinking negative/bad behavior is acceptable/OK. If you put a vicious killer in prison for LIFE, what's to stop him/her from killing a guard or another prisoner just for ***ts 'n' giggles? "What are they gonna do to me, give me ANOTHER life sentence?!? I'm already in here until I die, so what's to stop me from killing again, for fun?"

I think revenge was part of the reason for the slaughter, but it was mainly to stamp out the evil of the town, to make certain the townsfolk would never again victimize anyone.

[–] Jerry-137 11 years ago

If you put a vicious killer in prison for LIFE, what's to stop him/her from killing a guard or another prisoner just for ***ts 'n' giggles? "What are they gonna do to me, give me ANOTHER life sentence?!? I'm already in here until I die, so what's to stop me from killing again, for fun?"

Exactly! And it's happened many times. Granted they may be sent to a supermax prison for killing while in custody which is a complete isolated existence and drives most inmates insane after a while, if they aren't insane when the get there. But it's a good place for evil people who continue to take an innocent's life and is an alternative to the death penalty. IMO much crueler.

My only complaint about the death penalty is that it takes so long before the punishment is finalized. In some cases 30+ years but on average probably around 12-20 years. This is cruel to the families of victims and many die before they see justice.

Death penalty opponents say that long waiting time is cruel to the accused who lives day by day not knowing what day they are going to meet their maker and that conditions in that part of the prison is also somewhat isolated and restrictive compared to the rest of the prison. I find it hard to "feel" anything for the convict as they still have privileges their victim isn't experiencing. TV, communication with the outside, like family and attorneys, and the free intake of oxygen around 32 million times a year.

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My favorite: Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

[–] morganseer 9 years ago

This is cruel to the families of victims and many die before they see justice.

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That's provided life imprisonment isn't justice enough for them.

My problem with capital punishment isn't taking the life of the guilty. My problem is all the people improperly or mistakenly convicted.

[–] Jerry-137 9 years ago

My problem with capital punishment isn't taking the life of the guilty. My problem is all the people improperly or mistakenly convicted.

That's supposed to be the reason that it takes so long to kill them. Time to "prove" their innocence. But in reality what is the percentage of death penalty cases where the person was put to death then later found to be innocent? It's a very small amount although it wasn't very small to those 3-4 people. In this day or age and with DNA it's highly unlikely someone will be killed who wasn't guilty.

But say imprisonment was in a Supermax prison instead. You don't think that is crueler than death? Almost every single person who has been in a Supermax prison has gone insane
after a few years. Insane people like those in Supermaxes is an hour by hour torture of the worst kind both physically and mentally.

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My favorite: Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

[–] morganseer 9 years ago

I believe that's a better argument for creating a more humane environment for prisoners, than it is for the death penalty, huh? :)

I'd consider changing my view if I saw a good study showing that the death penalty actually saved innocent lives. But at this moment I believe there are fewer guards dying at the hands of prisoners than innocent people being killed or incarcerated for a lifetime by the state. I count the latter because they not only forfeit their life to prison, but would lose their life under the death penalty system.
In Louisiana, at least, there have been many people whose convictions have been overturned.

You are right, DNA testing will reduce that. But even then mistakes will be made, and in some cases it may not even be used.

I guess it's all up to how much of a margin of error you're willing to live with. Me, none, when the stakes are death. I'm content with the life-in-prison option. But I would like to see prisoners in some useful occupation to help pay for their keep, and to keep them from getting bored. You know, the devil finds use for idle hands...

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

That’s the issue - the cost of imprisonment. Why should the victims and other taxpayers fund decades of comfortable housing for murderers? If they’re 100% guilty then kill em.

[–] liscarkat (18373) a year ago

One of the problems with "life" imprisonment is that often it isn't for life. Another problem is that it costs a fortune to keep criminals in prison, especially in poorly run states like California. And just why the hell should murderers get to go on for years and decades watching tv, eating meals, weight lifting, reading books, having conversations, enjoying visits from family members while their victims have had their lives stolen and are rotting in graves? Screw them. They need to be punished, and others need to be protected from them.

[–] brightwhitehorses 11 years ago

Wow, great insight. I don't have much to add other than commending you on such a well written and thoughtful take on the story. Thanks for sharing.

[–] InternationaleClique 10 years ago

Great analysis OP. Everyone in the thread really. Totally agree.

[–] Gregor_81 10 years ago

This is awesome. I got the exact same thing while watching.

I was going to write my own analysis on it, but yours was so thorough that I don't feel the need :)

I'd never considered absolute forgiveness as arrogance before. Man, did that make my head spin.

[–] dustypistol 10 years ago

Me too; in fact, that whole conversation in the car at the end made my head spin. I sure am glad that I was able to get through the minimal set-dressings and the play-like atmosphere to get to the real meat of this well-crafted and unusual morality tale.

Definitely a gem, and I say that as someone who almost turned it off several times. Not because of the bare set, but because of the violence / bleakness of the film.

[–] eolloe 10 years ago

In this interpretation, the Boss is God (and in particular he is the Old Testament Jehovah) and Grace (note the name) is Christ. The Boss, as Jehovah, is all about right action, reward and punishment; humans need to follow his rules, and if humans break the rules they are in lots of trouble.

This was one of my interpretations of the film. Wipe 'em all out, like with The Great Flood.
As for Old Testament and New Testament, don't forget the horrors of the book of Revelation.

[–] pistolsatdawn21 9 years ago

Only one hole in this, though a pretty big one. Christ's teachings in the New Testament are ignored. You forget there are many occasions in which he instructed people on how to live better lives, something she did not do throughout the film.

[–] ashpot 8 years ago

Only one hole in this, though a pretty big one. Christ's teachings in the New Testament are ignored. You forget there are many occasions in which he instructed people on how to live better lives, something she did not do throughout the film.

NOT AT ALL!
don't you remember the scene where Tom calls all the people to the meeting hall and Grace addresses them - telling each of them what their flaws are. We didn't get to hear the lecture (maybe thats why you forgot this scene) but the narrator informs us that she is rebuking them.

in fact what you saw as 'a pretty big' plot hole, (with my correction) is probably the best proof that this interpretation of the film is the correct and intended one.

the result of this meeting, where the people of Dogville refuse to accept her admonitions and turn against her, is like the prophets of old being rejected and despised for only trying to reveal the truth to humankind. and like when jesus is spurned and a crown of thorns is placed on his head.

[–] bpollen 8 years ago

No. I think it was a mob boss who wanted to extract revenge, while at the same time making sure his daughter would be able to take her place at the head of the table of the mob by making a hard but necessary decision. She was ready to take her rightful place, after rebelling as many people do in their youth. In her mind, it was justice. She would kill, but only if she thought it was justified.

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

It’s even more relevant today when we have Social Justice Warriors making endless excuses for Jihadists and other criminals from minority communities.

The crime rate from blacks is shamefully vast - 50% of violent crime from 15% of America’s population. Instead of giving these people the respect they deserve by holding them to account SJW’s make absurd excuses for them, arrogantly presuming that blacks are incapable of law abiding behaviour.

Great film.

[–] Lucia2016 (612) 2 years ago

Love this thread, it makes me even more interested to read the Old Testament, i have always suspected the New age shit was their way of watering down the OG and turn people into pussies so so they can't fight back when the time comes