Whitewashing the Italians - Captain Corelli's Mandolin (2001) Discussion

[–] 1966nm 18 years ago

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I second that.

Its true that the Italians were not really saints as they are presented in the cinema. Yugoslavia and Greece suffered a lot from their brutality although the Germans were a lot worse.

Many villagers saved Italian soldiers after the armistice by orders of the partisans but many others hated them so much that even accepted them in their housed and left them starve to death.

Comparison with the Germans made them look more human and tolerant, regardless of the torture, executions, even burning people alive. But they (as always) changed sides in time for the allied public opinion to see them more positively and after the war they went to a lot of trouble in order to assure that no one would mention their war crimes.

But who can blame them. The allied side also took very seriously this atrocity competition and for years no one spoke about it.

War is hell!

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[–] bede86 18 years ago

your right, but italian soldiers who commited attrocited would have been the hand picked few willing to do so, ur basic soldier wouldnt have done such things and i think italy changed sides to show the allies that not all of them were fascists and they to hated mussolinis fascist nation but then mussolinis supporters would have gone home and kept there mouths shut, but your forgetting the attrocities commited againg italian soldiers by the germans after mussolinis surrender.

The Nightrider!!! That is his name...the Nightrider. Remember him when you look at the night sky!

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[–] 1966nm 18 years ago

The German soldiers were not all criminal either. There is no nation of monsters in the world.

The Germans treated badly the Italians after 1943. The British, the French the Americans and mostly the Soviets treated really badly the German POWs. Many died, mostly out of starvation.

The war knows no saints.

The Italians were far more tolerant than the others, mostly because they did not have too much discipline and e.g. permitted the people of the areas they occupied to eat from their garbage. This sounds appalling but in those days it could mean survival.

On the other hand people in my town remember the German soldiers as kind and tolerant. This is because there was not much resistance here, since there were no mountains for the partisans to hide. But some kilometers away, in the mountains, they eliminated a whole town.

Bad things happened by every side. And I am sure that if the Greek troops had the opportunity to occupy some territory during the war, they would have been driven to atrocities as well.

They did, after the WWII when the civil war started and they started killing each other!!!

But it is true that Italy went into a lot of trouble to make everyone forget they were on the “bad” side, doing their part in the first years of WWII. And when some Italians mentioned negative things about their country’s behavior during the war they were imprisoned by the governments of the ´50s.

And then Alberto Sordi and others promoted the role of the piece loving Italians who are involved in a war that is not theirs. That was not true. Italy (through its government, which was popular at the time) wanted the war. And Vittorio Emanuele III only dismissed Mussolini of his power when he though that his throne was indangered (which was true).

Anyway, I hope that its clear, I am not accusing anyone of anything. Only saying that things did happen. And there are no saints or devils. We could have done the same in their place. Who knows!

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[–] Sid-Blitzen 18 years ago

I was reading a book about the Battle of El Alamein recently, and about a modern-day reunion of the veterans of that battle, from both sides. There was some worry that the old Afrika Korps guys might start acting Nazi, but they were very well-behaved. The only trouble came from some Italian veterans, some of whom turned up in their fascist black shirts, and some of whom expressed admiration for Mussolini.

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[–] sfviewer123 15 years ago

Whoever was worried about Nazi behavior from DAK vets was clueless.

Afrika Korps was one of least Nazistic elements in the German Army, Rommel openly defied Hitler's orders to segreate Jewish/Communist/etc. POWs and so on.

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[–] pmiano100 17 years ago

Actually, I did see newsreel films of when Mussolini declared war. The crowd didn't look all that enthusiastic. Not that they were peace-loving; they just knew they would be fighting the British who would and did, kick their butts.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] pmiano100 17 years ago

You could say the same for the Germans. The fanatical SS committed most German atrocities, not the typical Wehrmacht soldiers.

Most Italian soldiers sheepishly followed the orders of their generals. If they were told to help the Germans, they did. If they were told not to, they didn't.

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[–] ryanoconnor-1 18 years ago

Greek actress Irene Papas (from the movie) who was there during World War II in real life, says in the book based on the making of this movie that it is true that the Italians treated the Greeks better than the Germans and that Greek women liked some of the Italians and married them. The Italians were a warmer group of people than the Germans.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

You, sir, are a complete and utter waste of space, and would be considered offensive if you didn't betray how disarmingly ignorant you are. Your groan-inducingly trite and risible clichés would make you blush crimson if you had a smidgen of a conscience or any decency, not to mention respect for your fellow humans and for truth. Sounds to me like you have never picked up a history book in your life - which isn't surprising, really, as reading and digesting the content of one would require a spark of independent thought, and the ability to elaborate such information. Not to mention an inkling of intelligence...

It wasn't surprising there was so much anti-Italian propaganda right after WW2, not to mention movies parodying the alleged cowardice of Italians, and so on... and after all, we all know that it's usually the winners of wars who have the privilege of re-writing history... But to actually, publically display your moronic and backward beliefs the way you are here... well, it's truly astonishing. It's as if you'd been hibernated for almost 60 years, then woke up and barely realised it wasn't 1946!

To think that you may have, or may someday come to Italy and benefit from its hospitality, take advantage of the good things it has to offer and be completely and utterly undeserving of it, considering your shockingly idiotic prejudices and ignorance...

The Italians were, and still are, widely known as the most cowardly and useless of all the armies involved in the second world war.

WIDELY KNOWN, he says! The ridiculous swagger and misguided confidence with which you imply to KNOW anything at all (let alone difficult topics such as history), is truly flabberghasting! Do tell us, then, even just in two lines, about the historic reasons for the rise of Fascism in Italy. For instance, any idea what the year of Mussolini's coming to power was? Let's hear what happened in the years immediately before that event, which might give us an idea of WHY it happened... And yet, there are a good number of AMERICAN historians who wrote very informative and enlightening books defeating some of the moronic clichés you've just taken for an airing, here... Anyway, let's have a couple of lines to show you're making an attempt to show us you have an INFORMED opinion, rather than spewing inanities from hearsay! (and a very dated form of hearsay at that). The trouble is, james-1959, you have nothing but sewage detritus in your brain, and could not possibly ever hope to handle topics that are best left to people with a spark of intelligent life encased within their craniums...

YOU
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[–] quincy805 18 years ago

Making negative generalizations about a specific nationality is probably not the best thing to do. :)

I, for one, am grateful to the Italian people for their role in the Renaissance and the impact that it in shaping the modern world. To me, the Italians represent a rich history, great art, great science (think of the contributions of Leonado Da Vinci, Galileo, and Enrico Fermi), and also great food :-D

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

... and NOT homogenious than a whole country of people (especially not a regionally varied one like Italy, where the South is culturally somewhere between North Africa and Europe and the North is either Germanic, French or Slavic). There is also nothing more complex, nuanced and often, even contradictory than history. Not for nothing, some people choose to spend their lives studying history - even digging out primary sources, if there isn't enough satisfactory material in the secondary sources (ie the history books written by other people).

The statement "Italians are cowards" crumbles into nothingness the minute you REALLY start looking into what happened - God knows there are plenty of books and documentaries on the subject. British best-selling author Louis De Bernières, who wrote the novel that this frankly ridiculous Nicholas Cage movie is based upon, must have looked into things a little more carefully than any of us posting on this board - though to be honest, I also found his book a tad simplistic. The cliché of all Italians being peace-loving, opera-warbling flirts is pretty damn silly and tiresome. De Bernières meant well - he wanted to give his own contribution to defeating the cliché of cowardly Italians, but was also guilty of airing another type of cliché - he should also have represented that small handful of hard-core fascists that were left by that stage... It's pretty common knowledge in European history that by the time of the Greek campaign, Mussolini HAD in fact lost much, if not almost all favour with the Italian population, and it's really the nature of dictators not to consult their own before taking any decision (look the the war in Iraq - 78% of the population, including much of the military of Italy were against it but Berlusconi jumped onto the bangwagon anyway! Meanwhile France, which was a proper democracy rather than being run by a megalomaniac media mogul, listened to the will of its people and didn't go to Iraq...!)

Anyway, yeah - the Renaissance, Galileo etc are all wonderful, in fact glorious. But there are also so many stories relating to Italy and WW2, which can be added to that "rich history" you speak of, quincy805, that no one knows about unless they are interested in modern history. Not being willing to read up about the topic is fine, but spewing imbecille and outdated statements, thus betraying one's COMPLETE ignorance, is NOT. If and when one is ignorant about a subject, it is best to keep one's trap shut. Unless you want to be recognised as the amoeba-brain that you are. So, who's the coward?!

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

Eppure, molti meridionali ne fanno (giustamente) un motivo di vanto, del fatto che la loro ricca cultura abbia subito per secoli un'influenza araba, formando soprattutto in Sicilia e alcune parti della Calabria la loro storia e cultura. Gruppi musicali come i napoletani Almamegretta ne fanno addirittura uno dei loro manifesti, del fatto che il sud è, come dicono loro, "africano" (non proprio storicamente esatto, ma se lo desiderano loro...). E' scontato che questa non sia stata l'unica influenza subita da TUTTO meridione nei milenni, e ovviamente anche a sud le influenze non sono state uguali per tutti - greci, fenici, normanni, ecc ecc ecc certamente hanno dato il loro contributo... Ma tu, scusa, credi che io volevo dare una vera e propria lezione di storia all'imbecille che ha scritto che gli italiani sono vigliacchi in guerra? Credi che ne valeva davvero la pena, di entrare in dettaglio? Credi che generalizzazione come "Gli italiani" (come se fossimo identici dalla Sicilia alla Val D'Aosta) siano corretti? Mi sa che te sei troppo abituato a polemizzare con i cretini, ed ora prendi un pò per scontato che tutti lo siano... Volevo giusto dare un'idea della varietà regionale, visto che secondo molti stranieri l'Italia è tutta identica dalla punta dello stivale alle Alpi.

Oltretutto, non capisco cosa intendi dire, nella tua ultima frase. Mi vuoi dire per caso che il Friuli Venezia Giulia non ha influenze slave? Strano, mi risulta diversa, la realtà dei fatti. Vallo a chiedere ad un triestino. Oppure che a Torino e nel Piemonte in generale, oltre che nella parte più a ovest della Liguria (da dove viene il mio compagno) non si respira una certa aria di... "francesità", persino nel suo cibo, il suo dialetto, la sua archiettura? Zero carbonella? Di nuovo, vallo a dire ad un piemontese. Ah - lo sapevi, poi, che Lombardia e Venezia sono state sotto all'Austria per... ben, diciamo un bel pò di anni, va! Ma sicuramente non c'è stata alcuna influenza, no, e infatti Milano è culturalmente identica al Molise, vero? Già! Chiaro come il sole Lombardia e Veneto (da dove sono originaria, tra l'altro, pur essendo da sempre a Roma) non sono UGUALI all'Austria, ma non venirmi a dire che un invasore così aggressivo e persistente non lascia alcuna traccia! Persino Napoleone ci ha lasciato diverse sue leggi. La tua ultima affermazione poi è scontata, ed ESATTAMENTE identica al concetto espresso da me. IDENTICO. In effetti, mi chiedo perché te la prendi con me, e non col coglione che ha pesantemente insultato i nostri connazionali...

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

Il problema è che tu non hai proprio capito lo spirito con cui ho scritto le cose che ho scritto. Oltretutto neghi che ci siano effettivamente delle differenze regionali perché ti sei convinto che io stia dicendo che quelle differenze siano immense, immani, insormontabili, assolute, estreme, drammatiche! Ma le vie di mezzo, non le conosci proprio? E perché non creditarmi con un minimo d'intelligenza (dico un minimo!) nel saperle bene già da sola, le cose piuttosto scontate (scusa) che scrivi, che tra l'altro condivido e non ho mai negato né contraddetto. Chi ha mai negato che siamo tutti italiani, poi, lo sai solo tu! E perché poi tirare in ballo la Spagna! Che significa che l'influenza araba è stata maggiore lì - è come se io ti dicessi: "In Scozia fa freddo" e tu mi rispondessi: "NO!!! Perché in Siberia fa MOLTO più freddo!!!" (l'esempio della Scozia non è a caso, visto che mi sono laureata lì - 1992-1997).

E' una tendenza degli Anglosassoni credere che l'Italia sia identica dalla Puglia alla Sicilia, e dalla Sicilia all'ultimo metro della Liguria prima che inizi la Francia. Cliché che riguardano Napoli e Venezia sono mischiati e diventano genericamente "italiani", poi si presume che non esistano dialetti, né che ci siano differenze molto importanti di influenze storiche o culturale. Il cibo, poi... è tutta la stessa roba, da sempre, da nord a sud. Per controbilanciare questa idea mi capita spesso di citare appunto le influenze arabe e quelle germaniche, scegliendo proprio due tipi di influenze diametralmente opposte fra loro per dare in maniera rapida e efficace l'idea della mancanza di totale omogeneità culturale che invece molti ci vorrebbero attribuire, spesso più per innocente ignoranza che per malizia.

Avendo vissuto un decennio in Gran Bretagna (dopo la laurea in Scozia mi sono trasferita ed ho lavorato a Londra fino a 2002), la solfa degli italiani vigliacchi l'ho sentita molto spesso. Posso assicurarti che veniva spesso anche da persone tutt'altro che ignoranti, anche miei compagni di università e persino persone amiche. Ma del resto, ogni tanto si sentono affermazioni idiote ed ignoranti venire anche da italiani che dovrebbero invece essere un pò più acculturati, ma ahimé non lo sono. A me francamente dispiaceva sentire queste cazzate sull'Italia - per un pò te ne puoi fregare, ma dopo un pò che ci vivi, e sei un espatriato, sorge spontaneo il desiderio di spezzare una lancia in favore del tuo paese, soprattutto se tu sai di essere obiettivo e tutt'altro che stupidamente patriottico. In effetti io non sto cercando di convincere questo coglione di nulla, perché non ha né l'intelligenza, né il desiderio di andare oltre i suoi pregiudizi. Ma ci sono altre persone che leggono, e non tutti sono imbecilli, anzi. Io stessa ho imparato molto ascoltando i motivi dell'indignazione di alcuni gruppi umani mal rappresentati dalle credenze popolari o l'immaginario collettivo... comunicare con il prossimo non è mai una perdita di tempo. Se le cose che scrivo non saranno lette da nessuno, cosa ci ho perso? Una decina di minuti quando ho deciso di scrivere le cose che ho scritto. E basta. Ma scusa, ora che ci penso - perché mi sto giustificando con te?

Ora ti chiederei per favore di leggere con più attenzione i miei post, cercare almeno di non considerarmi un'imbecille totale che parla per slogan e non prende in considerazione alcuna sfumatura di grigio. Perché se vai a guardare, di sfumature ce ne sono quante ne vuoi... poi se tu non le vorrai cogliere e preferisci continuare a polemizzare, io non ci posso fare nulla.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

Come non lo facciamo noi!!! Ma vogliamo scherzare! Ma ti pare che questo non lo penserei??! Io mi trovo molto spesso ad ascoltare cliché immani da parte di italiani sui britannici (che conosco abbastanza bene), per non parlare di una varietà di altre nazionalità e categorie umane!

Le cose che scrivi sono scontate alla luce delle cose che io scrivo nei miei post. Intendo che se tu i miei post li avessi letti con più attenzione, vedresti che nulla in essi contraddice le cose che tu affermi, e che offrono informazioni più che abbondanti per farti capire che certe cose non solo le so, ma le condivido (ad esempio, visto che sai che io ho vissuto per anni in Gran Bretagna... perché dirmi: Ho sentito tanta gente confondre la Scozia con l'Inghilterra o addirittuta con l'Irlanda. ? Non ti pare scontato che io queste cose, considerando quanto tempo ho trascorso su quelle isole, già le so? In questo senso dico "scontate"! A me pare piuttosto che tu sia un pò troppo abituato a polemizzare con persone non proprio intelligenti - o forse non li consideri tali.

Che c'entrano le tendenze separatiste? Diobbono, ma per chi m'hai presa? E che cacchio c'entra, scusa, con il fatto che ci siano innegabili differenze nel paesaggio culturale e storico dell'Italia da regione a regione? Perché credi che questo debba per forza significare qualcosa di radicale o separatista? Non trovi anche che questa sia la grande bellezza dell'Italia, ciò che la rende speciale? Io sono di origini venete ma sono praticamente cresciuta a Roma... da anni convivo con un compagno di genitori dell'entroterra sardo ma lui è cresciuto in Liguria... Se un giorno dovessi averci dei figli con lui, non vedo perché non dovrebbero venire a conoscenza delle piccole individualità che rendono uniche le regioni che costituiscono i loro genitori. Non significa che non gli verrà istillato un senso di italianità. Dio sa quanto mi irritano le tendenze "regionaliste" o addirittura "provincialiste" di certi miei connazionali, e quel modo di considerare il proprio buco d'origine come il miglior angolo d'Italia! Ma possibile che tu non veda la differenza fra questo - lo spirito del separatismo - e la capacità di riconoscere ed apprezzare le eterogeneità regionali?

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

Capisco ora da dove nasce il tuo allarmismo. Beh, a me non sembra che si abbia l'impressione di una mancanza di unità - in effetti questo non è mai stata un'idea dell'Italia che io ho incontrato all'estero o fra stranieri. Al contrario è molto, ma MOLTO più radicata la convinzione che siamo omogenei e identici da nord a sud - questo cliché è molto più insidioso perché vorrebbe poterci definire in due facili frasi, due generalizzazioni da quattro soldi. Oltretutto, riferendosi a questa discussione in particolare, la storia dell'Italia durante la seconda guerra mondiale, ad esempio nelle fasi finali del conflitto è stata molto diversa se prendi la Sicilia o il veneto, e cosa è successo in queste due regioni nel momento in cui sono sbarcati gli alleati (ripeto, è solo un esempio). Ma secondo molti, non sono mai esistite sfumature e noi siamo tutti identici, e tutti codardi voltagabbana. Invece circostanze diverse hanno fatto sì che italiani di diversi angoli della penisola gahho giustamente reagito e vissuto, a tratti, la guerra in modo diverso. Mi dirai: "fregatene dei cliché idioti". In genere ci riesco, ma ogni tanto anch'io sento il bisogno di mandare a cagare qualcuno. Me lo concedi? Sono solo umana...

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] quincy805 18 years ago

Asa Nisi Masa and hotterthanhell: Well ladies, although my Italian is pretty awful, from what I understand, you've posted an interesting converstion. I think in America we understand that people of a single nationality are not "homogenized"; there are tremendous cultural/political differences and beliefs among various regions of the United States. The South, the Northeastern states, the Pacific Coast, and the Great American Midwest have many differences, just like Milan is different from Palermo and Ireland is different from England. I suppose people in the Northeastern US make fun of people in the Southern US and vice-versa, so this type of regionalism is universal.

ANM, I like your point that living abroad has given you perspective about your native country. Travel broadens the mind, doesn't it?

If either of you ladies could help educate me about the Arabic influence you mention in Europe other than the obvious influence in Spain, I would be grateful. Do you mean the legacy of the downfall of the Ottoman Empire?

I'll be back tomorrow to see if there is any response.

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

It was quite silly to start with, since we pretty much both believed the same things, But initially hotterthenhell was afraid that I'd give an impression of disunity among different, regional Italians to whoever was reading my post. I obviously wasn't - and no one that I've known of has ever had the stereotype of "disunited" Italians. On the other hand, that of ALL Italians, from Sicily to the Alps fitting into one easy definition and all looking identical and living in the same way, is alive and well, as far as I can see. In the US, since most Italian-Americans are of Southern origin (if I'm not remembering this wrong, about 80%), it's the Southern culture of Italy that tends to shape your perception of our country and its people, and I would say that's quite natural. But being of Northern heritage myself and having grown up in Rome, I can tell that when confronted with Italian-Americans, I often feel like culturally I have virtually nothing in common with them - no more than I would with a Brit or a French person. For a start, because they tend to have crystallised within them and their memory an Italy that no longer exists. And secondly, because they are American, not European... as much as this may sound unkind, there are some differences in mentality there.

As for your question, quincy806, I think you're better off asking hotterthenhell, since from what I understand it's her university degree subject, whereas I only live with a historian! (he has the knowledge, I don't! ). OK, as far as I know Spain and Portugal were invaded by the Arabs for considerably longer than Italy. Furthermore, it was only Sicily and Calabria, maybe some other bits here and there (Puglia? No, I think that was the Normans). And it was only, if I'm not totally off the mark, for a century or two. I do believe that the influence went beyond their mere temporal presence, in that their culture permeated the Southernmost part of Italy in an enduring and very positive way, and I really don't think hotterthenhell could deny this! Even Napoleon left a remarkable legacy, whether we like it or not! I don't think it has exclusively to do with how long you stay, whether an enduring legacy will be left behind...

Yes, the US is regionally varied as well, and it's also something you often hear me say. So is the UK, where I lived for a decade (1992-2002). But even the UK isn't quite as regionally varied as Italy, I can assure you. And the US is a huge country in comparison to Italy. Hence, proportionally Italy is far more varied, and there are precise historical reasons for this. I hope hotetrthenhell doesn't get peeved with me again - girl, please don't fret, as I'm not saying we aren't all Italian and we aren't united! Just that we're not culturally homogeneous over the space of a relatively small territory, perhaps more so than other countries I've known (even very well).

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[–] gtarna 18 years ago

>Furthermore, it was only Sicily and Calabria, maybe some other bits here and there (Puglia? No, I think that was the Normans).

Normans were also in Sicily...

Then there are other curious things in our history, for example "Leggi Livornine", in Livorno somebody can have very far dutch or english origins....

it's a miracle if we haven't a rainbow skin...

ed io odio chi parla di purezza della razza.................

juventus and milan suck
www.raquelgibson.com
www.christinaccangel.com/

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Terrapin2212 13 years ago

I think the Germans and the Japanese were clearly the most savage armies in the war. The Germans mostly the SS in the concentration camps, but in terms ofthe regular soldier I think the Japanese was the most barbaric and savage especially with the suicide cult ideals and the brutality they treated allied prisoners. Japan and Nazi Germany were most dishonorable and cowardly for the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and the surprise invasion of the Soviet Union against the Hitler-Statlin pact, though Stalin was guilty of dividing Poland with the Nazis also. The Soviet Union was also one of the most brutal regimes in history especially after the war.

I think the French were the most cowardly of all the countries and barely resisted. France is undeserving of what it got after the war since it contributed little to the war effort. The French were and still are much bigger cowards than Italians. When Americans joke about a cowardly country it is usually France these days. Italy has a strong military today compared to most of Europe. Also the Roman Empire was basd in Italy as well.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] gtarna 18 years ago

where do you come from?

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

... in cui mi dici cose che non ho mai negato né contraddetto. Ad esempio: "Alla fine siamo tutti italiani". Come se avessi detto il contrario. Gli "illustri" sono persone più colte, preparate ed esperte di me. Ora per favore basta polemica - francamente ancora non capisco perché tu ti sia così accanito contro di me, quando appunto molti dei concetti espressi da me non contraddicono i tuoi, ma approcciano l'argomento da un'angolatura leggermente diversa, e con uno spirito che mi pare tu non abbia proprio colto.

Un'altra cosa davvero sgradevole è sentirsi mettere in bocca delle parole che non si è mai dette. Non solo mi sento italiana, ma anche cittadina del mondo, se è per questo. Sai una cosa? Per me personalmente, nulla mi ha fatto capire meglio cosa significa essere italiani che vivere per molti anni fuori dal mio paese, e attraversare una fase in cui credevo di non sentirmi italiana, ma poi con gli anni rendermi conto che invece, cacchio, lo sono eccome, e riescire finalmente ad amare il mio paese con obiettività, senza idealizzazioni né autolesionismo, sia dal di dentro che dal di fuori, a vederlo come lo vedrebbe un britannico, ad esempio, e anche vederlo come lo vedrebbe un italiano.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

Già... anche per me è andata così. E' assurdo ma su tante cose la pensiamo allo stesso modo - non so nemmeno perché ci siamo rovesciati addosso questi fiumi di parole. Comunque mi pare che siamo ad una sorta di accordo ora... meglio così. A proposito, tu sei una ragazza/donna? Mi pare di aver capito di sì...

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

Movies are fine and dandy, but they can't teach you history, not in a totally reliable way anyway. I'd say pick up some good history books as well, or documentaries, and never limit yourself to just one source.

The only trouble came from some Italian veterans, some of whom turned up in their fascist black shirts, and some of whom expressed admiration for Mussolini.

What are you trying to imply here, that those mean ol' Italians are actually nasty pieces of work, while everyone thinks they're actually angels? I'm Italian and cannot stand the positive clichés of Italy, either - they're just as bad and misleading as the negative ones. I prefer to think that the human race has had a go at being a tyrant or a victim at different stages of its history, and no one has been exempted - that's the very nature of being human, really.

But you need to TRULY get to know Italy, to realise how ruthlessly critical we are of our own a lot of the time. This is something most travel books written by expats in Italy will say about us, if you don't trust an Italian telling you so... In fact, I'd say the lack of a true form of healthy nationalism (meaning, a balanced pride in our culture, not moronic flag-waving) is what makes Italians both envy and revile this quality in the French.

I mildly resent your story of the veterans showing up in black shirts - what's it supposed to mean anyway? What are the conclusions you wish people to come to, when they read that? Why would a handful of die-hard fascist a*r*s*e*holes be worthy of representing my entire country in any way? Why not the partisans, then? Why not my grandfather, who was taken to a camp by the Germans for having been a Communist and always refusing to sign up to the Fascist party? Well, no... it's best to take ALL sorts into account! Why do we tend to generalise and wish to represent a whole nation of men and women through their negative, or even positive extremes?

Also, surely you know that the anti-Italian propaganda of the immediate after-war period coming from the UK and America was just as biased and vehement as the pro-Italian clichés you now resent... But as with everything, the truth is always somewhere in the middle. Trite, clichéd, obvious, but true.

Regards.

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[–] Sid-Blitzen 18 years ago

"I mildly resent your story of the veterans showing up in black shirts - what's it supposed to mean anyway?"

The way you call it my story, sounds like you think I made it up. No, I read it in an actual history book, called "Alamein: War Without Hate" by John Bierman and Colin Smith.

I relate the episode because it struck me as anomalous.

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[–] Asa_Nisi_Masa 18 years ago

I never implied you made it up. Maybe I didn't express myself properly, but I swear that isn't what I meant at all. It doesn't surprise me that a handful of old pricks showed up in blackshirts. Nothing anomalous about that whatsoever, believe me. And as I said, I don't see why such wastes of space, who'll croak soon anyway, should in any way be so very representative of my fellow countrymen and women today. If you haven't already, you really ought to watch some classic Italian cinema, movies such as Bertolucci's Il Comformista and Novecento, a good handful of Ettore Scola's movies (among which Una Giornata Particolare, Concorrenza Sleale, ecc), Dino Risi's La Marcia su Roma, Vittorio De Sica's Il Giardino dei Finzi-Contini. These are all celebrated classics, beloved by many cinephiles around the world so I'm not suggesting you watch some obscure fare. I won't even mention the work of novelists such as Elsa Morante, Alberto Moravia, Curzio Malaparte, ecc, and how that is also an excellent Italian voice on the subject of Fascism and the war. Watching these movies and reading those books, you really get a sense of how such cinematic masters and writers were perfectly capable of a lucid and objective critique of Fascist Italy and our country's role in WWII, both on a national and on an individual basis. No white-washing there - at least not from the Italians. As I said, we are and often have been known to be our most ruthlessly unflinching critics. No denial there, I can assure you.

I think it took Germany longer to elaborate what had happened, and it really isn't surprising. With fine movies such as The Downfall, Sophie Scholl, etc, the Germans are also finally providing their own, objective version of the events. I'm grateful for it - I was getting rather tired of only Hollywood and (mostly) English-speakers telling me about the Germans. Now I'd rather the Germans told me about themselves directly, for a change.

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[–] SCraigNZ 18 years ago

Can I please bring your attention to what the original comment that started all this refers to?
- The Italians, posted to Cephalonia, and subsequently slaughtered by the Germans.

IT HAPPENED!

This movie inspired me to travel to Cephelonia and I consequently spent 8 weeks in one year there and then another two weeks the following year.

The Italians in Cephalonia DID make an effort to get along with the Greeks and the Germans DID massacre them after taking their weapons from them after their surrender.

It seems this discussion has gotten A LOT broader than the movie that sparked it.

I have spoken to Cephalonians about this, I have visited the memorial to the massacre MANY times, and I have read a bit about it.

It happened - the Italians WERE nicer to the Greeks than the Germans, and the Germans DID slaughter them - IN THIS INSTANCE. In fact, there were so many Italian corpses to deal with after the massacre that the Greeks didn't know what to do with them and ended up shoving them down wells etc etc.

Cheers
Susan

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[–] Shaolin_Apu 18 years ago

Greeks committed acts of violence to each other too. The nationalists and the communists fought a civil war and putting all the atrocities to Italians' account does not make justice.

The Apple Scruffs Corps, 05
If Lennon was alive he'd turn in his grave

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[–] JosephtheLibertarian 18 years ago

No Italian ever committed warcrimes. Stop with your propaganda, you Communist!

It's good to trust others but, not to do so is much better.
Benito Mussolini

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[–] Sid-Blitzen 18 years ago

"No Italian ever committed warcrimes"

Tell that to the Ethiopians and Libyans.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] linop90 8 years ago

Americans and brits have commited heaps.
and we are "supposed" to think of them as the good guys....... ha

Eat the Neocons.

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[–] bede86 18 years ago

interpretation???? lets just bend history to suite our own agenda you and the holocaust deniers and other political scumbags in this world have got lots to talk about. its been 8 months since I posted that, untill now i'd forgotten lol. Black shirts committed atrocities yes, your basic Italian soldier rarely, I know about what happened to Ethiopians and that was terrible but the person I was responding to was putting Italian soldiers in the same catagory as the SS, that comment was deleted 9 months ago, thanx for taking my post out of context almost a year since the discussion ended :) thumbs up for you genious.

The Nightrider!!! That is his name...the Nightrider. Remember him when you look at the night sky!

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] bede86 18 years ago

Yes, Italian soldiers did commit war crimes in Ethiopia and elsewhere.....though not as bad as The Germans did....during the war in France and Italy in Italian area's Jews were not treated anywhere near as badly as in German occupied zones! as it is said Mussolini saved more Jew's than Oscar Schindler, that is what my original post had to do with! Me and the other person posting were not talking about North Africa or any of the Italian occupied Countries outside of Western Europe, We were discussing Italian soldiers treatment of the Jewish people during WW2! sorry for not making it clearer, as I stated I posted that 8 months ago, and since forgotten all about it until dis morning when I woke up checked my emails and saw an IMDB email! also I do not appreciate you saying Italian soldiers were sad excuses for soldiers, my Grandfather lost 4 brothers during WW2, 2 in North Africa in 1939 and 1940 and 2 were shot by the Germans in 1944 for being Partisans, sure Italians may not have done as favorably as there German or Japanese Allies this was mainly due to poor leadership, the lack of equipment and basically because they had know real reason to fight. Also I read in a book about North Africa several years ago that at several occasions Italian Soldier's did rather well but had there Victories taken credited by the Germans or something along those lines, might be irrelevant just wanted to mention it I'll see if I can find this book somewhere in my Collection. Are we done yet? :)

The Nightrider!!! That is his name...the Nightrider. Remember him when you look at the night sky!

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] pmiano100 17 years ago

Fought extremely well in WWI? They got their butts kicked at Caporetto and surrendered by the tens of thousands like the cowards they were and still are. Forget the rationalizing - Italians are cowards and proud of it. They were cowards when they let Mussolini drag them into a war they didn't want to fight. They were cowards when they let the British, French, Russians and Greeks make them eat dirt from one battlefield to another. They were cowards when they stood by and let Germans commit atrocities - and worse, often joined in. Cowards!!! Yet they still swagger around and act tough and proud, as if they have anything to be proud of. I am ashamed my ancestors came from there and I bless the day my great-grandfather left there and moved to America.

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[–] pmiano100 17 years ago

In all fairness, some "average" soldiers of every army on both sides committed atrocities. The Moroccan units who fought for thr French were so vicious American soldiers fired on them to keep them from slaughtering an entire Italian village. There were American, British, Canadian, French, Russian, and other Allied swine as well. The atrocities of the Russians are especially well documented.

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[–] Sid-Blitzen 17 years ago

"People know that ALL sides commited some war crimes".

Yeah, but some nations come in for more criticism than others. Like, everyone wheels out the Germans or the Japanese as perpetrators of war cirmes, while the Luigis manage to escape below the radar when blame is being dished out.

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