MovieChat Forums > Enemy at the Gates (2001) Discussion > Music - similarities to Schindler's list...

Music - similarities to Schindler's list?


One of the predominant themes by Hoerner sounds to me to be very very simliar to the main theme from Schindler's list?

You can hear it most distinctly during the scene where Tanya goes down at the docks.

Anybody else notice this?

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Brainwashing!

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Yep I noticed that aswell. But it is not uncommon.

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The "Troy" fanfare is very similar

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One of the main themes is very close to a straight rip-off of the theme from Schindler's List. A lot of the other music is fairly unoriginal too.

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exactly what i was thinking



so many movies, so little time

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I know the 2 themes you are talking about and yes, there is similarity.

So what? If film composers are now forbidden from using falling disjunct crotchets on the first violins, then they are in deep trouble...

Film music buffs always make this mistake. They haven't heard historical music, their references are from film music only -- which is fantastically shallow.

As if Purcell and others hadn't done the same thing centuries ago -- and kind of better, too.

So there is similarity, but it is probably much less meaningful than you thought.

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i have no trouble with using previously composed music. my problem is horner refusing to admit he ever did. he liked to copy prokovief.

"Does it make a movie "good" because you "like" it? No, it doesn't..." - Roger Ebert

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https://youtu.be/5ZSLPSfhA1w?t=3m45s

Since your technique to argue your point seems to be to ignore everything others say and then repeat your opinion, this is the last time I reply to you -- one last attempt.

There is no "previously composed music". Horner did not copy Prokofiev here. Repeating yourself won't make this true.

You found similarity in a melodic line. Similarities will exist in many ways, but they do not characterize theft.

The similarity you found (with Schindler's List) is extremely insignificant since it is based on two falling perfect fifths (like G, C, G, C). If you really could take 4 notes constituting the most common disjunct interval in American music and denounce theft, all film composers would have to start making dodecaphonic music...

Your fundamental mistake is excessive weight given to a tonal main melodic line. You talk about Prokofiev as if his chords weren't infinitely varied, as if his arrangements weren't incredibly original, as if the main melodic line constituted the "majority" of music. GCGC means much less than you think, those are only 4 notes in a sea of dots on the page.

Just try to imagine how many times this sequence of notes, GCGC, must have appeared already in 5 centuries of classical music. It has appeared in different contexts and in similar contexts. Beethoven wouldn't care a bit about you, he would never hesitate before writing GCGC once more if his narrative seemed to want GCGC.

Maybe you can argue the similarity goes on for 8 notes, not 4. Who cares? 8 notes with new clothes do create a new musical discourse, with a different meaning -- this is what you don't seem to understand.

Current Hollywood film composers could not approximate Prokofiev's music if they tried -- they lack his technique and his originality. (If you can't see this you haven't heard enough Prokofiev.) And they are not trying -- they are trying to appeal to the masses who don't have enough musical sense to appreciate even Prokofiev anymore. The poor guys have to convince film directors who are completely ignorant about music that what they've done isn't so bad...

To me you don't sound like you know much about music. You don't sound like you know what Prokofiev really means. And I'll bet you are just going to repeat yourself again, bringing nothing new to the conversation, again.

The remedy for you, if you are intelectually honest, would be to take some lessons in music composition. Then you would realize that the complexity of the craft is much higher than what you have been able to hear so far. 4 notes mean nothing in a complex musical discourse. Even if a whole melodic phrase were identical to that in another work, the simple fact that it is juxtaposed with something different that comes before, and something different that comes after it, would give it a different meaning.

The problem with Hollywood music isn't that they are emulating the masters. The problem is the opposite -- that they aren't trying to make great music anymore. The ignorant directors, always asking for "more emotion" (and less character), have won, and everyone now believes the public would not like to hear great music on a film. Thus minimalism is the way, and this unfortunate state of affairs already lasts 15 years or more.

You critique is incredibly misguided.

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in BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS he used the "battle on the ice" music nearly note for note from
ALEXANDER NEVSKY. he just slowed the NEVSKY down. and he used NEVSKY again in TROY.

i have a master's degree in music, written one symphony and one piano sonata.

as i said, my real problem is not that he copied music (like the mahler he used in HONEY I SHRUNK THE KIDS, and stock's "power house" which he got sued for) but he swore up and down he never, ever did.

"Does it make a movie "good" because you "like" it? No, it doesn't..." - Roger Ebert

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OK, can you please offer me a link to the bit of Horner that you say is identical to the Battle on Ice? (I know Alexander Nevsky very well.) Or at least the name of the track so I can try to find it in Spotify? Bonus if you can point out the other instances of plagiarism.

The only previously offered link in this whole thread is ridiculous. It "denounces" the fact that Horner frequently uses a certain "motif" on his first trumpet. Listening to the samples reveals the "motif" is a gruppetto. Makes me assume the author doesn't know what a gruppetto is, the author doesn't know anything about opera, the author is a film music buff simpleton.

These people would put Mozart down because he uses trills... But they are so certain that they know what they are talking about...

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https://youtu.be/MIuWcc3jSWk
start listening at about 2:24.

"Does it make a movie "good" because you "like" it? No, it doesn't..." - Roger Ebert

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Thank you for the link.

I hear the same motive on the same chord -- and that's it. And then it becomes a collage of Star Wars-like ambiences, Star Trek the movie (Goldsmith-like synth), some Planets by Holst, and then a lot, but a lot of, fanfares and rhythms that emulate Elmer Bernstein's Magnificent Seven. It is very cheesy and very derivative -- of many things -- just like the rest of Horner. It is also as derivative as the movie itself.

So no, you exaggerate when you say he "used the 'battle on ice' music nearly note for note". He did quote it though, quite clearly. One could just as easily argue this is homage. I didn't feel offended by the quote, although it is wasted on a bad piece of music.

We need to remember this kind of music is "created" under incredible pressure of time. Originality may be high on a composer's personal priorities but everyone else seems to care less about originality than about "effect". And if the music-ignorant public swallows it, then there is no reason for the "creators" to be original. Try to count how many (poor) remakes of old films have been made in 2016... The public doesn't exactly shun these movies as we should.

Last month I was in a situation of composing music under pressure of time and, let me tell you, there is a panic that takes hold of you and your worst fear is not finishing the thing on time. (I hear most if not all film composers feel this panic at the beginning of a job.) I decided it wouldn't matter if *I* thought the music was bad; as long as the rest of the team approved it, I was going to complete the needed time first, and then use any hopefully remaining time to redo the worst parts. This was the strategy, and I don't think you can fault the strategy, but the end result is something I don't like. However, I don't know of a better strategy for next time.

Let's just say not everyone is Prokofiev.

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another bit of plagiarism? in the title music to HONEY I SHRUNK THE KIDS his use of raymond scott's "powerhouse" was egregious enough to rate a lawsuit by the scott estate.

"Does it make a movie "good" because you "like" it? No, it doesn't..." - Roger Ebert

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Yes, they are similar, but yet very distinct from each other. Enemy at the gates has this sweeping tone with romantic vibes while Schindler's List is sad and tragic in its beautiful music.

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Just watched this again recently and decided to come on here and make *the very same topic*.😊

I noticed this immediately upon hearing it the first time. Both of the scores are *very very* similar. It bugs me alot now, every time I watch this I can't help but think of 'Schindler's List' all the time.

Yes, they are very, very similar to each other. Almost a straight up rip-off.



----
"I don't like alarms, Mr. White."

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