I enjoyed this film but it's hugely unrealistic which given that it's based on a real life scam is a shame. I have worked in sales for most of my life and there is so much here which is nonsense. For example when Greg says to Seth "a good broker makes over 700 calls a day". Absolutely ridiculous. No human could ever get close to that. When Vin Diesel shouts "get the *beep* out at seth" - no sales manager would do that when there's people on the phone. There is so much more but I can't be bothered to type it! Not a bad film but about as much a realistic depiction of sales as Rambo is a real depiction of the army.
I spend the whole day cold calling people and hardly ever does someone not answer the phone as everyone has a secretary, ok you might get some voicemails. Maybe you could make 700 calls if no-one ever answered but then how would you make money? Certainly not anything like the money they're making even with the big rips.If you're a good salesman you get people on the phone and you pitch them and if you're not spending a certain amount of the time on the phone getting talk time then you wouldn't be a very successful salesman. The simple mathematics of the amount of calls you can make in business hours don't add up to 700 calls if you do your job properly.
I call BS on your numbers, and with good reason. Just taking the average of what you are saying without any complications; 700 calls in 14 hours. That is 1 call lasting 72 seconds, for a period of 14 hours straight - no lunch breaks, no idle time, no chit chat etc. That means these guys in sales are working a 15hr shift (assuming a 1hr lunch break over a long day). That's 7am-10pm every night. Continuous calling with a small break for lunch. I'm not saying salesman don't work hard (I've been in that racket), but what you are saying is trying even if you were attempting to break records... let alone day-in-day-out.
Now let's use your numbers...
***I've adjusted the "seconds per call" figure to deliberatly skew it in favour of your argument (i.e. minimising "inefficient"/pointless calls and maximising calls which generate sales).***
Proportion| Calls| Description| Secs per call| Total time (hrs)|
20%| 140| Hang up| 20| 0.77777778|
30%| 210| Hang up| 20| 1.16666667|
30%| 210| Blow off| 40| 2.33333333|
20%| 140| Interest| 250| 9.72222222|
[For this table line up the categories with the appropriate description/stats]
Remember that this is over 14 hours - without breaks of any kind included. When you look at the numbers it's incredibly unrealistic, and yet I've skewed the numbers very heavily in favour of your percentages. A call where you register interest seems to take 4 mins and 10 seconds on average only (and there are a whopping 140 of them!). If you've ever been on the buying end of a sales call (let alone as a sales dude) you'll know just how unrealistic that is. And all the calls that don't require the salesman's services are wrapped up in RECORD speed (within 4 hours of the 14). It just doesn't happen that way - not in a real office and it would impress me if someone could do it competently even on a record-pulling day. It's a completely unrealistic figure.
This is outlined by needing the average of a call every 72 seconds for 14 hours straight. The hours in sales are heavy - but even they have their limits.
You're right about one thing, from MPE sales is quite obviously a numbers game. However in this case the numbers posted are completely unrealistic as the OP has said.
(these numbers were just off the top of my head, so don't be too rough on me)
Yes, they are unrealistic. Most production goals are set high in order to get the most out of people. Set a number like "700" in front of a newbie and they're going to burn up the rolodex. But yeah, that's a bit much to do 5 days in a row for weeks on end. And considering that they actually have to SELL the stock (or at least the idea) that takes time as well- as evidenced by the two sales calls we got to see. But as far as breaks and lunches go...screw the breaks. Breaks are for pikers.
And lunch? "Lunch is for wimps".
I'm holding everyone to a higher standard- a standard much higher than my own
There is no point defending this shoddy piece of trash movie with cliche phrases, stale acting and absurd plot. I was going to be hard on you gabby, but at least you admit you pulled those sales-calls numbers the same place the creators of this movie pulled its story--right from where the sun don't shine.
this f-ckn' movie had ZERO basis in reality (when it comes to sales and trading or i guess brokering). for starters, you need an NASD 7 and 63 to deal with clients...but i can let that type of editing go as that is not material to actual plot.
what is ludicrous was the scheme they had to pump and dump a stock...maybe they kept it that way because most people wouldn't question it or care to analyze it...but anyone working in financial services, especially those of us in actual sales and trading at a bulge bracket could read through these mile-wide plot holes.
how can one chop shop (JT Marlin) drive the entire market for a stock (even if it is small or mid cap)...AND get it published in the newspaper (Medco? or whatever it was) without any other open interest on the street? in other words, where is Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, UBS and Citi? Big boys not involved? Where is my Sandler O'Neill or Piper Jafrey? Where are the analysts covering this firm...even for an IPO, where is my *beep* red herring and documentation and bankers taking me through the IPO phase? even if their compliance officer was asleep, wouldn't this raise eyebrows? it makes ZERO sense. i could go on and on but i think you guys get my point.
their lingo was dead wrong as well..."rips" = "bro" in the real world...i could go on but this movie gets 2 / 10 for its absurdity.
I worked in telemarketing. It's called an autodialer. I can hit the guys numbers... in an HOUR.
Most calls are 4 seconds... before it hangs up. Some as little as 1.5 seconds. 4 seconds for a call (that does not connect). When it is busy, they calls connect immediately to the next one, MAYBE a half a second of connect time. Realistically, it is 13 calls per minute, for 60 minutes straight (sometimes 12 hours straight). That's 780, in an hour, with not ONE call taken. If people don't pick up in the first 3 rings, it drops it as non productive--- they pay for lead if it connects, not if it doesn't. If it hears a sound, ANY sound (a lot of times it is a pulse), a hello, an answering machine, it immediately cuts to that call, or goes back to the non-productive dials. You just sit and watch, like a clock ticking down, to the end of your life. I had 3700 calls one day--- a 12 hour day, because it is illegal to call before 7am or after 8pm (unless you called us), and yes, time zones matter. I took an hour lunch. I don't remember how many people I spoke to, but it wasn't many-- and not for long... maybe 7 minutes? The ones where we began to introduce ourselves and they hang up (realizing it is a sales call), probably about 6 seconds. I typically hit 1000 calls a day, with 7 sales, 35-50 who talk at all. 5% conversion with a 1% close, is alright (but not good). Some will, some won't, so what, NEXT!
If you don't qualify, I am off the phone ASAP. If I hear you beginning to say "ta--" or the "put", you won't even get the letter "k" out before I have hung up (My mouse is already on click to hang up, take next call, the second a call connects)... before you can say: "Ta...ke me off your list" or "Put... me on your do not call list". If I never heard it, you can't really make them comply. Calls are recorded, but you will never get the recording, and we never could make out what you said. You will get another call. Your number will be recycled. We do it to entertain ourselves, and because you were not polite, so that is our f you--- to you too buddy. What can I say, the leads always suck, and we got paid by the hour, we don't really care if they close, but it makes it REAL boring if you don't politely decline, and stealth the DNC thing in.
3700 calls buddy. I was not even close to the record holder.
Funny thing was, what we actually sold really did help people. A very select few (debt consolidation). Saved a lady $37,000 in debt she didn't have to pay. Another lady (not mine) saved $68k. Most people tried to take advantage of us, as if we could save them from themselves and their bad decisions. Canceling debt is easy if you know how, but you will usually have to ante up for a lawyer unless you are smart, and patient.
I personally weaseled out of $16k debt: here's your mini education. Statute of limitations in my state was only 2 years for revolving credit (credit cards), 6 years for contracts--- it is different in EVERY state, but it is based on what state YOU signed the original in. All I had to give in exchange, was little to no credit for 7 years--- and don't accept certified mail or give your name to anyone on the phone before they give you theirs, and guess what, they have to--- but I don't. Pretend you never heard of them, then complain you get all kinds of calls about this guy you have never met. Tell them this is not their number, it has been yours for a year. They transfer you to someone else, they ask you the same questions. Your answer is: "I don't know who that is--- I am Harvey the Rabbit, you got the wrong guy I tells ya, myaaaa coppa! (a bit of sarcasm, but you get the idea)". If they do catch you with a notice to appear: take it seriously, and appear-- or YOU lose, hands down, every time--- they can garnish you and worse if they find out where you work or if you have any assets. Show up, demand they produce the ORIGINAL contract.... WITH your signature on it, or tell the judge to throw out your case as they have not presented any evidence that the debt is yours or anything that ties it to you. Sometimes the judge will allow a copy, but not one without your signature. The collections lawyer will try and con you into giving them a dime. Don't give them a penny, EVER! If you do, the statute of limitations clock RESTARTS and you have to wait 7 more years before it comes off. Just stop paying them, and never look back.
WHEN the lawyer threatens you (that is their job, so don't take it personally), and signs an "indemnity affadavit", it is invalid, and tell the judge to toss it. It is a BS piece of paper they try to use, that the judge listens to that says "we have that document, and we CAN produce it, we just don't have it today". If you do not object, then you are agreeing that they have it. Tell the judge that if they have a complaint, THIS is their day in court, and they have produced no EVIDENCE against you--- they have no complaint (no case). Object, and tell them the law REQUIRES them to produce the original or it is not a contract. They will send you an unsigned (usually contemporary) contract--- without your signature. DEMAND the original, dated the DAY _THEY_ say you signed it, with your signature on it. Never take a deal. The only thing you should ever say: I will settle the account ONLY as PAID IN FULL or SETTLED IN FULL for the total amount... for $1 (or $20 if you feel generous)." They will complain about how little that is, say they can't, have their manager talk to you. You tell them: better than nothing, and you KNOW you can't collect. The law is on your side. They WILL try to send you a contract that takes the $1 you offered, but it won't say "settled in full", they are trying to trick you into partial compliance with a NEW contract. Don't fall for it. NEVER do bankruptcy, it puts you in the hook, it doesn't help your credit (ruins it), and you still have to pay it back. Credit card companies wrote the new bankruptcy laws, and screwed the consumers. Thanks Republicans!
You won't miss the credit cards. If you don't have the money, don't buy it. Makes decisions real easy. Teaches you what is truly valuable cannot be bought with plastic.
Good call CabbyG3 - everything you said on the legal front is correct.
I like this film, anyone in doubt that firms in the US act this way should read "Liars Poker". The author sets out how a broking firm taught him to sell stocks and have no cares about whether the stock performed or not - an illegal act in Australia which carries a jail term of 5 years alone for each act. In this book the author describes several people that listened to his spiel and bought shares, only to have it fall and destroy them; this was called "blowing up the client" and nobody cared, only the sales counted and there was no redress for the client.
This type of behaviour is illegal in Australia and is policed heavily by ASIC (like the US's SEC)and APRA, which America could do with. It's a central body that looks into the "financial actuality" of insurance companies, investment vehicles and so on.
In 1994 as a fledgling broking company, I received phone calls from a person stating they were a New York stockbroker, with corny lines right out of Wall Street (big big changes occuring in the market that will effect your future...) It was an international call and the caller was persistent, wanting us to invest client monies in an IPO just as in Boiler Room. He was a pest and was finally told in Australian venacular to piss off.
Sub-prime mortgages and the belief that it is Ok to "sell" without actually having a decent product is an American eccentricity, carried out by American firms worldwide. This is what caused the US such whopping pain in the GFC, and there is a damned good reason why the practice is illegal elsewhere - it's like selling the Grand Canyon or the Chrysler Building - totally fake.
There are an awful lot of sharks out there who believe they will never get caught, and the public just doesn't want to believe they are little minnows swimming in an ocean of predators, and that the government will keep them out.
Films like this should be required viewing before being allowed to buy shares.
I always thought that the associates working for the broker was included in the 700 calls a day. Meaning the people learning were cold calling people and getting hung up on, hanging up on people, and being blown off while the 20% were basically immediatly passed to the good closer. All the calls combined effort would make up 700+ calls. You have to remember the Exchange is only open 930-4 and your not gonna make too many calls after 4 for sales you cant complete that day...so in your workday of say 6-6 from 6-8 your processing whatever ppw you have, 8-4 calling and 4-6 close out/prepare for tomorrow....idk thats how i always took it.
dont pin this on jesus, hes got enough nails in him already -house
Read the book "Wolf of Wall Street". Its an autobiography of who the character Michael in this movie is based on. A large amount of this movie is not only accurate, but actually happened.
You pointed out two mistakes, which are common to all sales environments. That doesn't mean the movie is "hugely unrealistic". Now if you listed ten reasons why you thought the movie erred in accuracy ,that would be another story and would give one reason pause. So, I'm going to assume this movie is probably closer to the reality than not.
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It's definitely a bit stylized and packaged for mass consumption but I wouldn't call it unrealistic. Two points come to mind:
-The 700 calls a day line is BS, but that's probably the point. 700 calls a day is ridiculous, but so is making obscene amounts of money because you bought random stocks off a cold call. Guys like Greg consider life to be one giant pitch so why wouldn't he pitch his friends too?
-Unprofessional conduct is totally in character for this sort of thing. Remember, these guys aren't some prestigious firm calling up old friends to spread the wealth or even a second-rate outfit squeaking out a living hitting up low-hanging fruit--they're basically the 90s equivalent of whatever companies are sending us all those dozens of daily spam emails for "herbal supplements", MLM scams and other assorted junk. So naturally they recruit the sort of aggressive, dysfunctional young people who think the world is nothing but a big pile of money and whoever shovels out the most wins. In other words, exactly the sort of person who would shout obscenities while a weak lead is still on the phone.
Not only is this film realistic, but its actually probably the MOST realistic movie I've ever seen. Not only does it depict the world as it is, but it predict the current financial situation......ten years in advance. Have you SEEN the news at all over the past couple of years?
~J.
You don't watch many realistic movies, huh? Sticking to sci-fi genre are we?
Boiler Room "predict" the current financial situation? Huh? Except the current crisis had nothing to do with the stock market and equity trading per se and everything to do with homes/mortgages/leverage by consumers, lenders and banks with a bit of fraud mixed in? WTF...so any movie about fraud made ten years ago is predicting the great recession?
"...ten years in advance. Have you SEEN the news at all over the past couple of years?" Wow, at a loss for words. I'm sure I've experienced and lived the front lines of the crisis let alone just watch the news on it. Boiler Room is completely non-sequitur to the situation except for the aspect of fraudulent brokers but with a completely different product. Also, Boiler Room was extremely fake/lame/unrealistic in a half-dozen ways as outlined on these boards by people who actually know the industry and work on Wall Street.
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Boiler Room "predict" the current financial situation? Huh? Except the current crisis had nothing to do with the stock market and equity trading per se and everything to do with homes/mortgages/leverage by consumers, lenders and banks with a bit of fraud mixed in? WTF...so any movie about fraud made ten years ago is predicting the great recession?
If only it was about mortgage debt...
Michael is Bernanke Brokers are the Mainstream Media Pump and Dump stocks are Bonds/US Dollar Harry is the baby boomer who thinks he has a pension
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Never having worked in the Securities business, I do not know how realistic this film is about Chop Shop's, but share price manipulation of bogus companies is more common than people might think. The old Vancouver Stock Exchange (VSE) used to be ripe with con men flogging shares of worthless companies (no real product or service). The companies were typically just shells with a public listing and a tall tale of BS, that was used to hype and manipulate the general public. The insiders who bought their stock for pennies would find a way to drive the price up, and then dump the stock for a huge profit, before the truth got out.
An interesting read on this subject is the book "Fleecing the Lamb - The Inside Story of the Vancouver Stock Exchange". If you found the shady parts of Boiler Room interesting, the book is a good read. Human gullabilty and greed is what drives the shady aspects of stock investing.
Gabby is an absolute idiot if one reads her other comments on this board. Her asinine breakdown of the 14 hour workday was completely made up at every level and kudos to the bloke who called out her BS....as did I...
but even easier....stock exchanges are open 930 -400 ... these jackoffs were not trying to reel someone in at 8pm to transact the next day...it was on the spot 'closing'... and 700 calls was hyperbole but still yet another reason this movie is for monkeys
"(these numbers were just off the top of my head, so don't be too rough on me)
Yes, they are unrealistic." (~me)
I freely admit that I hypothesized some numbers- and my other response on the other thread breaks it down a different way. Oh well. Take them or leave them. What is mathematically possible and what is humanly possible are often different.
stock exchanges are open 930 -400
This was a chop shop. Nothing says they can't be calling the west coast at 7pm EST. It's not like that gullible guppy who blew his mortgage on crap stock was even smart enough to realize the stock exchange was closed for the day. (that, and "money never sleeps"). All the salesmen need is a "yes" and to transfer them to the secretary to get the info and the money transferred into Michael's account. Michael doesn't give a rat's ass whether that stock is bought that day or first thing tomorrow- just so long as there's still junk to sell.
But yes, the 700 calls a day was hyperbole. I think we can all readily agree on that.
(by the way, I'm a guy. But that and the "absolute idiot" label are the only things I really dispute about your post. Everything i suggest is merely a suggestion to be taken within the framework of the movie- not real life.)
My "#3" key is broken so I'm putting one here so i can cut & paste with it.
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You are very defensive about this movie and seem to misunderstand parts of the 'business'. The numbers you provide have no basis, either. Someone earlier did a great job calling out the BS.
Yes it was a chop shop but they were not trading pre-market or after-market. You try to sound clever but it just makes you sound worse. I almost wonder if you are doing this in some sort of ironic way.
'This was a chop shop. Nothing says they can't be calling the West Coast at 7pm EST' - you
Huh? 930am-4pm EST. I guess we need to be specific for you. So at 7pm EST equity market closed in NY -- there was no West Coast exchange. OTC is not trading then either. So not sure what you are getting at other than showing poor understanding of time/zones. The money certainly is not transferred at that time either...
If I call some moron in Oregon with the deal of the decade at 7pm EST, it's 4pm in Eugene. All i need the guy on the other end of the phone to do is say "yes, I'll buy!"
Transfer to Nina, she gets the bank transfer going and Joe the Oregon Idiot owns $50k of worthless penny stock. it's not like Michael was running things above board. Hell, even the chimp compliance officer in the booth eating a banana was working after hours. The real paperwork to transfer the shares to Joe Idiot can take place the next day for all it's worth. I don't see the problem as long as Nina can get the bank transfer done before the banks close on the West Coast.
"We want winners, not pikers. A piker is someone who walks at the bell."
My "#3" key is broken so I'm putting one here so i can cut & paste with it.
Greg said, "an average broker makes 700 calls a day". Average? Does that mean that there are brokers who make more than 700 calls? Frankly, if I were the trainee I would think he is insulting my intelligence.
BTW, if you're going to be at the phone all day, why do you need to wear an expensive suit?
LOL!!! Forget the so-called "a good broker makes over 700 calls a day." line as PROOF that the movie 'Boiler Room' is unrealistic. How about the fact that Seth Davis supposedly ran a successful back door card house for three years without getting busted, and supposedly never payed off one cop or precinct in order to remain in operation. Even though, his father is a Judge in NY City in one of the most corrupt cities in America. Are you KIDDING ME?!? If Seth isn't paying-off at least a few cops for protection, then he'd get shutdown and thrown in prison so fast, that the only scams Seth could have an opportunity to expose, is that of the Wardens inmate work program. Like Shawshank Redemption for example.
However, we're lead to believe that the only reason that Seth managed to operate an illegal gaming operation for so long is due to the fact that Seth is soooo intelligent that he's able to out smart the entire city of NY's Police Force.
And, despite the fact that Seth's father is a city Judge, Seth apparently never considered approaching his father for assistant by informing him about which cops Seth could pay-off for protection, or any advise on how to avoid getting busted, because his father would be so morally outraged by Seth's business.
What were you thinking Seth?!? I mean, I know that Seth's character has some serious "Daddy Issues" and all. But if you want to run an illegal gaming operation in one of the most corrupt cities in America? Then you might want to at least see if your Judge father might be willing to give you a hand or not. Just a thought Seth.
Yet, Seth's father becomes so morally outraged after discovering that his son Seth is taking a few sucker college kids for a couple of hundred bucks a night at Seth's card house, that he nearly disowns Seth. But later, Seth's father has a change of heart, and tries to help Seth not get busted in a stock scheme after Seth's father discovers that Seth has been working for a Chop Shop brokerage firm that has been stealing 100's of thousands of dollars a day from suckers with careers and families.
GEE Dad, maybe you should have done the 'I'll use my Judgeship position to protect my son angle', when Seth just ran the card house.
While I'm actually a fan of Boiler Room, because of the overall theme on the movie, which is so accurately real when it comes to illustrating the general attitude of people that are far to willing to put their moral convictions aside of a fast easy dollar. The worst and most unrealistic part of the movie was that whole Father Judge and morally ambiguous son who is out to make a fast buck relationship. Nothing about that relation struggle seemed realistic to me.
Another one :see the warning exactly the same in the movie: Advertisements for seminars or real estate investment schemes that promise a ‘risk-free investment’, ‘be a millionaire in three years’ and ‘get-rich-quick’.