Why are people so confounded by this movie? It's not that obtuse. *spoilers* - Mulholland Dr. (2001) Discussion

[–] Moonglum9 (11275) 5 years ago

I agree. I always thought this was a cute movie.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

The dream ain't over until the witch with a punk hairdo says 'silencio'.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/d6/10/FTWDy13j_t.jpg

If you watch the next clip all the way to the end, you'll see her appear. After la Bruja say's the 'magic word', the screen goes black, and, finally, we get to the credits. It's as if SHE is the one who's in control of the spectacle. Since la Bruja 'has the last word', no theory about the film would be complete without some explanation about who she is and what role she plays in the fantasy.

https://ulozto.net/file/NmaFpTs2dkXs/mulholland-dr-suicide-mp4

La Bruja first appears in a balcony in Club Silencio.

https://ulozto.net/file/letQ5loFMG0L/mulholland-dr-in-club-silencio-mp4

It looks as if Betty is experiencing air turbulence on her flight back to Deep River, Ontario. Jacques Lacan would probably have called this experience 'la feminine jouissance', a kind of spiritual orgasm that you share with others. Freud would probably have called the event a 'dreamwork' representation of the 'primal scene'. That is, a dream that's an encrypted reenactment of the day junior walked in the bedroom and saw daddy banging up mommy. Based on what Lynch is showing me, however, I prefer to call it 'The in Utero Mind Fuck'.

According to your theory, Mulholland Dr. is a self-consoling dream. And, upon awakening, it becomes a terrifying, psychotic reality. But, if all these surreal events are simply the product of Diane's tormented imagination, her disturbing nightmare should end when she dies. So, how can la Bruja appear AFTER Diane commits suicide? Did la Bruja somehow possess Diane's mind and drive her insane? Remember that argument that Adam had with the Mafia at Ryan Entertainment?

Adam - "Hey, that girl is NOT in my film!"
Mafioso - "It's no longer your film."

If we agree that Mulholland Dr. is essentially a fantasy, who's dream is it?

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

When one commits suicide you don´t die right away. It takes a while. So the faces we see after Diane´s suicide and the blue-haired lady are still fragments of her mind.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

So, you still think it's Diane's dream? I disagree. When we dream we often see people we know, such as friends and relatives. Sometimes we see perfect strangers. But, when is the last time you saw yourself in a dream? In my opinion, we can see what the dreamer sees, but we can't actually see the dreamer. I have a few clips to illustrate this point. The first clip shows the moment when the dream begins, or at least the moment when the dreamer falls asleep. This occurs right after the opening scene with the dancers.

https://ulozto.net/file/2Ct0bWZkRZrr/mulholland-dr-bed-mp4

At first the picture is blurred. Gradually, we can make out what looks to be a bed with some rosé sheets and green blankets. We hear some heavy breathing, and we get the sense that someone is falling into the bed, but we do not see WHO is in the bed. In my opinion, this scene tells us that everything we see in the film is a dream. That is, whoever is dreaming is still dreaming when, later in the film, Betty & Rita see a corpse in apartment 17, Sierra Bonita. That is, the dreamer is dreaming about Betty & Rita sneaking into apartment 17 and discovering a corpse. Notice that the linens are the same ones we saw at the beginning of the film.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/54/c0/fQ25IBgu_t.jpg
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/70/5b/kAuOqjKO_t.png
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/b0/e3/e3K17rGP_t.png

The corpse appears to be a female, but we can't tell who she is. But, how can a dead person be dreaming? There are two possible interpretations.

1) The dreamer is not actually dead. She is simply dreaming that she's dead.
2) The dead woman's soul has left her body and is somehow able to look at her own corpse.

In any case, who are Betty & Rita, and how do they relate to Diane? Later in the film, we will see Diane Selwyn awake from this same bed.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/c4/a1/VckG6QLt_t.png

Are we witnessing a resurrection, or is someone dreaming that she is Diane Selwyn?

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

My main point is that although we can see what the dreamer sees, we don't necessarily see who the dreamer is. Here is a clip showing Betty & Rita going into Club Silencio.

https://ulozto.net/file/T7JVGsc99Rhc/mulholland-dr-entrance-to-club-silencio-mp4

Do you get the creepy feeling that the girls are being watched? Does it seem like someone is rushing to get in the door at the same time the girls go in? That anonymous PRESENCE is the dreamer (or if you prefer the wandering spirit of the corpse in apartment 17). Again, you don't actually see who is dreaming, you just see what the dreamer sees. This is called POV (point of view). If Lynch had filmed Diane's suicide in POV, we would not have seen Diane in the field of view. Instead, Lynch would have shown us a hand reach into a draw and pull out a gun. We would see the gun pointing at us, followed by a bright flash and a loud kaboom! But, that's not what Lynch showed us.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/60/04/5xlx0FLM_t.png

You may just be able to notice something shiny near Diane's mouth. Apparently, that is gun she used to shoot herself with. If we compare this to the corpse we see in Apartment 17, its not a perfect match. The location matches, but the corpse does not have a gun.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Judging from what I have just shown you, we (the viewers) appear to be standing in someone else's shoes, and we are seeing whatever he/she is seeing. In regards to who the voyeur is, there are least two intepretations.

1) The voyeur is some kind of ghost. A wandering spirit could see his/her own dead body, but the two death scenes don't match precisely. The corpse in Apartment 17 did not have a gun, whereas Diane shot herself in the mouth. We could have, for example, a ghost that drives people so mad that they kill themselves.

https://ulozto.net/file/1kOV5ow1QbPk/mulholland-dr-louise-bonner-mp4

2) The voyeur is someone who is dreaming, which is suggested early in the movie when the dreamer appears to be putting his her/head on a pillow. Presumably, the dreamer identifies in some way with the people he/she is looking at. The dreamer could be an elderly woman (we see alot of images from the 40's and 50's), and Betty/Rita could reflect her younger days. The girls could be friends or relatives, or they could simply be two imaginary women altogether. It is also possible that the dreamer is a man who is dreaming that he is a woman. Although I have no recollection of ever seeing myself in a dream, many years ago, I did dream I was a woman.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

There is some evidence that the dreamer is a man. In the following clip Dan is telling his friend, Herb, about a dream he has been having.

https://ulozto.net/file/MapeZMgLqSub/mulholland-dr-dan-herb-mp4

"There's a MAN...in back of this place. He's the one who's doing it. I can see him through the wall. I can see his face. I hope that I never see that face EVER outside of the dream. That's it."

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/df/d6/r4NGU9Zg_t.jpg

"So, you came to see if he's out there."

Ironically, by bringing Herb to Winkie's and telling him about his dream, Dan actually makes his own nightmare come true. Dan realizes what's going to happen, the moment he see's Herb standing by the cash register, just like in Dan's dream.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

I can see you really love this movie and have thought about it extensively. I guess you can see the movie any which way you want, judging by all the wildly different interpretations out there.

You seem to put the emphasis on the dream and the dreamer. We see someone putting her - his head on the pillow heavily breathing and we assume that what we see after that is a dream. Since dreams draw heavily from our unconscious one might also say we see the person´s unconsiousness at work. We also see Diane waking up from the exact same position as we have seen the corpse lie in the dream. To me that seems to suggest that there is a connection between the two. This in itself can also be interpreted in wildly different ways.

You seem to interpret the ending, when Diane shoots herself, as being still part of the dream. Can you tell me why you believe this is still a dream?

The Cowboy tells Adam that `You´ll see me one more time when you do good. You´ll see me two more times if you do bad.` So what is it according to you that the dreamer has done that is bad?

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

"I can see you really love this movie and have thought about it extensively."

I've spent two months on this film already, and I still haven't put the jigsaw puzzle together.

"Since dreams draw heavily from our unconscious one might also say we see the person´s unconsiousness at work."

Have a look at this video. It's a brief introductory to dream analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Qcmhsvcms

Freud spent almost his entire career analyzing people's dreams, and he wrote a lot on the subject.

https://www.bartleby.com/285/

This is how I see the movie. YOU are Freud, and you have a patient sleeping on the couch in your office. There are wires attached to her head, which connect to a monitor that allows you to see what your patient sees when she's dreaming. Your task is to figure out what the dream means.

Freud believed that most dreams fulfill a childhood desire to have sex with one of your parents. Of course, lots of psychologists don't agree with him, but they didn't make the film, David Lynch did. If you look carefully, you'll see sexual innuendo almost everywhere in the film. The event at Club Silencio is the most striking example, but even an ashtray filled with cigarettes is a metaphor for sex. A key going into a hole, a collision between two automobiles, passing through a gate, etc, etc, etc.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

"We also see Diane waking up from the exact same position as we have seen the corpse lie in the dream. To me that seems to suggest that there is a connection between the two."

Freud would call this displacement, which is changing one image into another. We see examples of it almost everywhere we look in the film. Betty becomes Diane. The waitress becomes Betty. Rita becomes Camilla. Coco becomes Adam's mother, etc. Other changes also occur. For example, Diane switched her apartment with her neighbor in Sierra Bonita. And, Diane replaced Rita in the back seat of the limo. Death becomes life and vice versa. But there is something else about the corpse that I find interesting. It's lying in the fetal position. Here's how I see it.

When Betty and Rita go to the Sierra Bonita apartments, they first have to pass through a narrow passageway.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/b9/3c/MoXrufgz_t.png

I don't know about you, but I see a vagina. It follows that Apartment 17 is a metaphor for the womb and the corpse is a metaphor for abortion.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/70/5b/kAuOqjKO_t.png

It could represent a dream that was never fulfilled, because it never even had a chance to see the light of day. But, I think it represents what Freud called primal repression. It is the very first thought or impulse that your mind ever repressed. It corresponds to the moment in time when your mind was first split into conscious and subconscious divisions.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

You seem to interpret the ending, when Diane shoots herself, as being still part of the dream. Can you tell me why you believe this is still a dream?

1) The film doesn't end after Diane commits suicide. It continues for more than a minute until we find ourselves in Club Silencio. Then, only after La Bruja says 'silencio' does the screen turn black. Like I said, if Diane had been dreaming or hallucinating all along, the film should have ended immediately after she died.

2) I believe the dream begins in scene 2, where we see the bed. This scene is shot in POV. That is, we don't see WHO is going to bed, we just see the bed.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/54/c0/fQ25IBgu_t.jpg

The person could have dreamed that she was a corpse, or dreamed that she woke up as Diane Selwyn. However, if the dream begins in POV it seems to me that it should have ended in POV, but the suicide scene was not filmed in POV.

3) You see familiar faces in dreams, but you rarely, if ever, see your own.

4) People can die in their dreams and even commit suicide. That doesn't mean they die in real life.

5) There is reason to suspect that this dream is a recurrent nightmare. Dan tells Herb at Winkie's that he had his dream twice. We see lots of things in duplicate. Duplicate apartments, both Rita and Diane ride in the back of the limo on Mulholland Dr., we see the cowboy twice, we see the corpse more than once, etc. Have a look at this clip. Betty and Rita are running out of Apartment 17, just after seeing the corpse. Do you get a sense of déjà vu?

https://ulozto.net/file/s4Kx85WEo1aH/mulholland-dr-deja-vu-mkv

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

The Cowboy tells Adam that `You´ll see me one more time when you do good. You´ll see me two more times if you do bad.` So what is it according to you that the dreamer has done that is bad?

Let's suppose that what the cowboy tells Adam also applies to Diane. Even though I don't agree that the dreamer is Diane Selwyn, I do agree that she's imagining herself as Diane. After all, Diane IS sleeping in her bed. So, what has Diane done that is so wrong? She failed to fulfill her desires. That's why she's in pain. That's why she's ugly, and that's why she wished she were dead.

Notice the psychic connection between Betty and Rita. Betty may look happy, but you can tell that she's in pain.

https://ulozto.net/file/LT0KZjELtjgb/mulholland-dr-moviestar-ambitions-mp4

"I just came her from Deep River, Ontario, and now I'm in this... dream place. Well, you can imagine how I feel."

In my view, Betty and Rita are alter egos. Rita is the dreamer's ideal ego; the person that the dreamer imagines when she looks in the mirror. She saw a movie star, and that's who she thinks she is.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/7f/33/Jrn3Jv7J_t.png

Betty is the dreamer's ego ideal; the person the dreamer would like to be.

"Well of course, I'd rather be known as a great actress, than a movie star. But, you know, sometimes people end up being BOTH. So, that is, I guess you'd say, sort of why I came here."

At some point, the two get so close, it seems as if you looking at just one person.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/c4/a2/zhWLKtba_t.png

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

´Your task is to figure out what the dream means.´
´If you look carefully, you'll see sexual innuendo almost everywhere in the film.´

So you believe that the dreamer essentially is in psycho-analysis and that the point of the movie is to figure out what the ´problem´ is? I guess in this view one has enormous freedom to interpret the movie and this view is possible. Yet even in this view you have to make the connections and come to some sort of conclusion.

Yes, there are many sexual references which would at least mean something, right? You reference Freud alot and also mentioned Lacan. Are you a psychology student or just particular interested in psychology? To be honest I´m not really a fan of Freud with his take on `everything stems from sexual frustration.` I have to admit I´m not that familiar with his work nor with psychology in general, but it seems to me that looking at the movie from a psychological perspective or any particular perspective does restrict ones vision. I know it´s very difficult to look at things objectively, because biases and past experiences have the nasty habit to jump in. Perhaps methodology is what I´m striving for.

As for the sexual references all through the movie: I guess Freud would have a field day with it. What do you make of these references? Do you see them as repressed childhood fantasies that are bubbling to the surface? Do you see references to prostitution maybe? Do you believe they play a vital role in the deciphering of the dream?

´Freud would call this displacement, which is changing one image into another. We see examples of it almost everywhere we look in the film.`

So what does Freud mean by displacement and what is the function of it? We see this indeed all the time and in many different forms in the movie. The most common and classical interpretation is that the dream upwards to opening the blue box represents reality in a distorted form.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

After this we see reality asseen through Diane´s eys with al the people from the dream with different personas and roles. You seem to suggest something else; that this `roleplaying` is displacement by the dreamer? If you suggest that the dreamer displaces the characters in order to suppress something, I guess that isn´t too much different from the classical interpretation. What according to you is the function of this displacement in regards to the dreamer?

`For example, Diane switched her apartment with her neighbor in Sierra Bonita.`

How do we know this is true? Do we consider the dreamer to be a reliable narrator? Can there be any reason the dreamer would lie about this? If we are indeed witnessing the dreamer´s unconsious, how can we be sure of anything?

`I don't know about you, but I see a vagina. It follows that Apartment 17 is a metaphor for the womb and the corpse is a metaphor for abortion.`

I have to say that is quite Original. No, I have never seen a vagina when watching that shot, but I guess Lynch could be so cunningly clever to sneak that metaphor in. I do think your logic is sound here after that assumption with the womb and abortion. So do you think that the dreamer had an abortion (maybe due to rape) and this dream is how she copes with that. Cause if you believe this, the dreamer must be a woman.

`However, if the dream begins in POV it seems to me that it should have ended in POV, but the suicide scene was not filmed in POV.`

This is only relevant when you consider the wole movie to be a dream. When you consider portions of it to be reality, the pov perspective has already been broken. This pov shot doesn´t have to be merely stating that it is a dream, it also designates the protagonist.

`3) You see familiar faces in dreams, but you rarely, if ever, see your own.`

Though it is an old and often used trope in Hollywood movies, most famous example being The Wizzard of Oz. In movies people dream all the time about themselves.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

`Dan tells Herb at Winkie's that he had his dream twice. We see lots of things in duplicate. Duplicate apartments, both Rita and Diane ride in the back of the limo on Mulholland Dr., we see the cowboy twice,`

Yes, MD is often compared to Persona for good reasons. Lots of duplicates, but also triplicates. With this I mean that it´s not black and white, but grey with lots of gradual transitions the way I see it. Rita just doesn´t become Camilla overnight, we first have the made-to-loo-like-Betty/Diane Rita. We have Betty-Diane seen through Betty´s eyes-Diane transition.

We see the cowboy 3 times: when he speaks to Adam, when he wakes up Diane and at the party.

`So, what has Diane done that is so wrong? She failed to fulfill her desires. That's why she's in pain. That's why she's ugly, and that's why she wished she were dead.`

The cowboy first shows up in the waking scene and later on at the party. So somewhere in between these two instances Diane must have done something bad. So do you think that between these scenes we get to see her doing bad in that it depicts her being miserable and failing to fulfill her desires? And what do you think her desires are?

`Betty is the dreamer's ego ideal; the person the dreamer would like to be.`

Do you mean that Rita would like to be Betty? And that when Camilla turns out to be the real moviestar she has accomplished this? Do you consider this to be one of the unfulfilled wishes of the dreamer?

You say that because of unfulfilled desire the dreamer feels miserable and wishes she was dead. How do you interpret Diane ordering the hit on Camilla?

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

"So do you think that between these scenes we get to see her doing bad in that it depicts her being miserable and failing to fulfill her desires? And what do you think her desires are?"

She longs for but cannot be re-united with someone she loves.

https://ulozto.net/file/lzINO1Ng9Kpy/mulholland-dr-la-llorana-mp4

"Do you mean that Rita would like to be Betty? And that when Camilla turns out to be the real moviestar she has accomplished this? Do you consider this to be one of the unfulfilled wishes of the dreamer?"

Actually, it looks as if Betty is the better actress. Other than make out scenes, we never see any convincing evidence that Rita can act. This is where the 'prostitution' hypothesis comes into consideration. Did Rita/Camilla sleep with somebody to get ahead?

https://ulozto.net/file/qKwg5zjKciOG/mulholland-dr-rehearsal-mp4

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

`For example, Diane switched her apartment with her neighbor in Sierra Bonita.`

It seems that Diane is trying to dodge the police, but I think the crime drama aspect of the movie is just a 'red herring'. I must confess, however, that I can't think of any psychoanalytical explanation for why the neighbors switched apartments. Most of these changes occur right after Rita opens the blue box and vanishes into an abyss, but I don't know why. However, the fact that Diane's neighbor is willing to help proves, in my opinion, that they are more than casual acquaintances.

"If we are indeed witnessing the dreamer´s unconsious, how can we be sure of anything?"

We can look for elements that are repeated, such as the woman and the man carrying suitcases to a car outside of Diane's apartment. That seems to match what we saw in the beginning of the film. When Rita sneaks into Aunt Ruth's apartment, we see a man helping Aunt Ruth put suitcases in the back of a cab. Now, think like Freud. A man and woman carrying baggage. That means someone is pregnant. The birth of a new child means that the older sibling will get jealous of the younger one, because the parents will pay more attention to the new arrival.

We can look for elements that seem to be missing. At the beginning of the film, we see a bunch of people dancing, but where was Betty's partner? Later in the film we see Diane wearing a wedding ring, but where is her husband? What's almost completely repressed is what is most upsetting of all to the dreamer. The fundamental truth is that someone VERY important in the dreamer's life is not there. This absence is represented by the blue key that we see on Diane's coffee table.

We can tell how the dreamer feels. Remember that scene at Ryan's Entertainment, where a mafioso orders an expresso and then spits it out in disgust? We have no idea what they are doing there or why Adam MUST cast Camilla Rhodes in his film. But we DO know that someone is not happy.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

"So do you think that the dreamer had an abortion (maybe due to rape) and this dream is how she copes with that. Cause if you believe this, the dreamer must be a woman."

Any interpretation may be valid, but I don't take the meaning so literally. I just see it as something the dreamer has repressed. In fact, from my point of view, the whole movie deals with the dreamer trying to see the truth, but he/she is unable to do so, because it is simply too upsetting. Going back to the car crash on Mulholland Drive, the truth was too glaring. Attempting to witness it literally destoryed Rita's ego. Then, at Winkie's it was too ugly, causing Dan to faint. At Ryan's Entertainment, it was too disgusting. In apartment 17, it was too frightening. And, watching Adam make out with Camilla was too outrageous. One exception to this pattern was what happened in Aunt Ruth's apartment, where the truth was simply unfathomable.

"Though it is an old and often used trope in Hollywood movies, most famous example being The Wizzard of Oz. In movies people dream all the time about themselves."

Dreams are almost always personal, no matter how you look at them. The Wizard of Oz, however, is purely a fantasy. MD is clearly intended to seem more like real life. The use of POV is an important clue.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

When you consider portions of it to be reality, the pov perspective has already been broken.

According to the popular interpretation, the first part of the movie with Betty and Rita is a dream. The dream ends when Diane wakes up to sober reality in what seems to be an apartment in Sierra Bonita.

https://ulozto.net/file/saCexsq2PnBR/mulholland-dr-diane-s-apartment-mp4

Notice that Diane is wearing a robe when her neighbor (LJ DeRosa) shows up. We also see a blue key on the coffee table. According to one interpretation, Diane became jealous of Camilla and hired a hitman to kill her. This key looks to be the same one that the presumed assassin will later give her as a token.

We can infer from context that the 'hit' occurred 3 weeks ago, and Diane has switched apartments to dodge the police. Since DeRosa is aiding an abetting a presumed criminal, the two women must be better friends than we would have guessed, given that they are hardly talking to one another. DeRosa has some things in common with Camilla. She smokes and she's a brunette. I consider DeRosa to be a real life model that serves as a template for some of the character's in Diane's dream. But, that doesn't prevent DeRosa from also being part of the dream.

At first, things seem normal. After DeRosa leaves, however, Diane has a vision. For a moment, she sees her long lost lover, Camilla. Oddly enough, when Camilla disappears Diane winds up standing in exactly the same spot where she imagined Camilla to be. We notice a wedding ring on her hand, but we don't see her husband. The coffee machine is a modern appliance, but Diane's fridge and stove seem to date back to the 1940's. Then things really get strange.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

https://ulozto.net/file/saCexsq2PnBR/mulholland-dr-diane-s-apartment-mp4

When Diane walks into the living room, we suddenly find Camilla lying topless on the sofa. Suddenly, Diane is also topless and wearing denim shorts. She wasn't wearing these when she got out of bed earlier. Diane's coffee has just become a glass of whisky. The blue key has disappeared. In it's place is a vase with two flower buds (roses?). DeRosa's ashtray has now returned. Diane is on top, but she's not in control. Camilla wants to break things up. After a frustrated struggle, Diane says:

'It's him isn't it?'

So, if you believe that Diane had been dreaming all along and has finally awoken, you have to conclude that she's also hallucinating. As for my interpretation, Diane didn't lose her lover 3 weeks ago. I take the age of her fridge and stove as an indication of how long it's really been. For example, Rita Hayworth was born in 1918. When she was a young woman, she probably had a fridge and a stove that looked like the ones in Diane's apartment. Since Diane is wearing a wedding ring, she could have lost her husband. Camilla is simply an imaginary substitute. I also take the blue key as symbol of her lost lover. We only see the key on the coffee table when Camilla is NOT there.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

What about the sexual images? According to Freud, playing the piano is a metaphor for masturbation. You may not believe him, but, apparently, David Lynch does. Soon after her encounter with Camilla, we'll see Diane masturbating. I've danced with myself a few times. Sometimes, my imaginary partner is a movie star. In most cases, however, my partner is not a real person.

https://ulozto.net/file/MI5kJ6yfZEHj/mulholland-dr-red-lamp-2-mp4

Notice that Diane is wearing denim shorts. She cries and she's frustrated, but all she can see is a stone wall. Then, the phone rings. Suddenly, we see a red lamp, an ashtray and telephone. These are exactly the same one's we saw earlier, when Mr Roque and company were looking for 'the girl'.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/4b/24/rYhflszB_t.png

After 4 rings, the dreamer hears the same message Betty and Rita got when they called Diane Selwyn. This time, however, someone answers. As if by magic, Diane is now in a black dress.

"Hello, its me. Leave a message."

"Diane, the car's waiting. Are you ok? You coming?

"Uh huh"

"Good. It means so much to me. Go on, the car's right outside your house. It's been waiting, ok?"

"Ok"

"It's 6980, Mulholland Drive"

Given that Diane was just masturbating, we have little trouble understanding the line 'are you cumming?' Also note the soft, sentimental tone in Camilla's voice. There are 8 cigarette butts in Diane's ashtray. Yet, neither Diane nor Betty smokes. On the other hand, we know Adam and Camilla smoke, as does the blond assassin and his prostitute. We also know that Diane's neighbor has an ashtray. However, there is no red lamp in Diane's apartment. In fact, we have no idea where the lamp comes from. The other odd fact is that Camilla tells Diane that the car is outside her house, but Diane doesn't have a house.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

By now you recognize a couple of Freudian metaphors. The pun and the ashtray filled with cigarettes. Perhaps the number of cigarettes refers to the number of sexual experiences. There is one more reference you probably didn't guess. The simple fact that Diane will soon be taking a long drive. As you can see, driving can have many different interpretations.

https://www.learning-mind.com/dreams-about-driving-a-car-meaning/

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

"To be honest I´m not really a fan of Freud with his take on `everything stems from sexual frustration.` I have to admit I´m not that familiar with his work nor with psychology in general, but it seems to me that looking at the movie from a psychological perspective or any particular perspective does restrict ones vision."

Even Freud didn't think that dreams were self-explanatory. He felt you had to know something about the person who had the dream. Since MD is David Lynch's 'brain child', the question is, what does David Lynch believe? Suppose David Lynch read Freud's work on the Interpretation of Dreams and DELIBERATELY put sexual references in his film? Suppose Hitchcock did the same thing? If I'm right, then psychoanalysis will provide the best possible explanation for the film.

"What do you make of these references? Do you see them as repressed childhood fantasies that are bubbling to the surface? Do you see references to prostitution maybe? Do you believe they play a vital role in the deciphering of the dream?"

Yes in all cases.

"So what does Freud mean by displacement and what is the function of it?"

According to Freud, the purpose of displacement is to disguise the truth, otherwise it would be too upsetting to the dreamer.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

Wow, lots to go through here. I try to reply to most things you brought up. For some weird reason you seem to only be able to add a certain amount of text at a time, so it will be multiple posts. One question to begin with: where does your interest in psychology come from?

`Actually, it looks as if Betty is the better actress. Other than make out scenes, we never see any convincing evidence that Rita can act. This is where the 'prostitution' hypothesis comes into consideration. Did Rita/Camilla sleep with somebody to get ahead?`

My point is that it´s very difficult to take anything at face value since we are dealing with an unreliable narrator, whether you consider this to be the (anonymous) Dreamer or Diane as dreamer. It seems that we are in agreement that what we see is a fantasy of the dreamer to suppress something awful. Now let´s say that the dreamer wanted to an actress in Hollywood, wouldn´t she imagine herself to be an incredible actress? And wouldn´t she downplay the abillities of her rival? Indeed, wouldn´t she make it so that her rival had to sleep with the director to get the role she so desperately wanted?

`It seems that Diane is trying to dodge the police, but I think the crime drama aspect of the movie is just a 'red herring'. I must confess, however, that I can't think of any psychoanalytical explanation for why the neighbors switched apartments.`

This switching of apartments has become of vital importance in my reading of the movie. This seemed very odd to me from the get go, but thinking about it has led me to the conclusion that it goes to the heart of the movie itself. Let me try to explain this.

IF Diane was to escape the police, why would she move to an apartment close by? Moreover, WHY would the neighbor agree to it, when all the apartments there are alike? Wouldn´t she found it odd to switch with no apparent reason? So, assuming they did NOT switch apartments, there´s only one viable alternative left: Diane and the neighbor lived together at no.12

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

The ylived together at no. 12 because that´s where the `detectives`came by to look for Diane. Now the move of Diane to no.17 is easier to explain, though we lack the evidence to back anything up properly. Maybe Diane and DeRosa had a relationship and that went sour due to Diane´s (in your case the Dreamer´s) depression. This could explain the ring on Diane´s finger, maybe it was an engagement ring or indeed wedding ring. This ALSO explains why Diane didn´t move far away, due to her mental state at the time. She wanted to be alone rather than escape the police. Her deteriorating mental health caused by her failure in Hollywood would indeed mess up the relationship, wouldn´t you say? And this explains why the neighbor is so patient with and worried about Diane, because she still loves her despite the quarreling. I find more clues which make me come to this conclusion, but they aren´t relevant just now.

`When Rita sneaks into Aunt Ruth's apartment, we see a man helping Aunt Ruth put suitcases in the back of a cab. Now, think like Freud. A man and woman carrying baggage. That means someone is pregnant.`

It could be a metaphor for pregnancy, but I cannot see the connection within the larger frame. What do you think of the older man at the airport bringing the luggage? Do you think this too signals pregnancy and if so, how do you fit this in your view?

To me the striking similarity between these two scenes is that whenever Rita or Rita and Diane witness this woman, she is leaving. In fact we never see any interaction between Aunt Ruth and them (except for the phone call with Betty, but we never hear Aunt Ruth´s voice there, do we?) and both of them seem to be afraid of her for some reason. It seems like they cannot coexist, like Aunt Ruth isn´t real. Like a untruth.

`We have no idea what they are doing there or why Adam MUST cast Camilla Rhodes in his film. But we DO know that someone is not happy.`

At the time we don´t know what´s going on, but at the end we know

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

why Adam must cast Camilla Rhodes: because she got the part in reality. All during the fantasy reality is creeping in dictating to the mind of the dreamer to steer towards reality.

`In fact, from my point of view, the whole movie deals with the dreamer trying to see the truth, but he/she is unable to do so, because it is simply too upsetting.`

Are you sure the dreamer is trying to see the truth? Isn´t the creation of a suppression fantasy an active act of not wanting to face the truth? I don´t believe the dreamer is trying, it´s simply the reality creeping in which she is unable to suppress. Or, taking your view into account, the psychoanalysis the dreamer is going through is working. When it is this that is doing the trick, what do you make of Diane committing suicide? Is this a breakthrough in the psychoanalys or a blowback?

`The use of POV is an important clue.`

It´s clear you are convinced of this and it´s reasonable to think this when you can incorporate it in your own view. It isn´t a major issue to me, since I believe it is just to hide the identity of the dreamer, so that the second half comes as a surprise to the audience. I see no neccesary other reasons to hide the identity of the dreamer in order for the dream - reality structure to work. Mind you, I don´t believe the second half is reality, only closer TO it.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

`We can infer from context that the 'hit' occurred 3 weeks ago, and Diane has switched apartments to dodge the police.`

Here again we come to the apartment switching thingy. I believe this to be a pivotal scene and to me it´s the only scene playing out in reality (apart from the pov shot and the ending scene, although that scene is clouded by fantasy also). I don´t believe the `hit` occured 3 weeks prior. Notice what the neighbor says. `My lamp and dishes? Come on, Diane. It has been three weeks.`And later she mentions: `Those two detectives came by looking for you.` What has been 3 weeks? When Diane moved to no.17, the neighbor would not have noticed the disappearance of these items right away. Diane has put them in a box, so...the neighbor must have told her that she got these items from her AFTER the move of Diane. This could have been directly or over the phone. Now the neighbor cannot fault Diane for not noticing the items before she was told by her, so my assumption is that these `3 weeks` refer to the time that the neighbor told Diane about the items. We don´t know how much time has past between the move and this talk, but there surely must have been some time between them.

We know that Diane knows of the detectives since the neighbor says `those.` We also know that the neighbor knew of them. The question is: did they come by while Diane was still living there (so that this would be the incentive for Diane to move) or did Diane move prior to that? It´s difficult to answer, but we can ask some relevant questions. WHY would Diane tell the neighbor the police is looking for her? IF the police came by while Diane was still living there, than where was she? In her present depressed condition it is unlikely she was out. Despite the fact that I have another view on who these detectives are, I´m inclined to say that Diane was already moved when the detectives came the first time. Since I find it unlikely that Diane would have told the neighbor,

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

it underscores my assumption that the two lived together at no.12. After Diane moved the detectives came by and the neighbor told Diane this when she told her about the missing items. So I believe the `hit` must have been longer than 3 week ago.

Another reason why I believe Diane and the neighbor lived together are the items themselves. They are important items to Diane and it would be wildly coincidental that the neighbor would have left them behind. There are dishes, a white table lamp and the ashtray. The dishes are tied in with the breaking of the dishes at the diner, but it´s a little too much to go over it now. Now the ashtray is clean and has no cigaret buts in it. It´s also in the shape of a piano. The table lamp is white in contrast to the red lamp we see several times. To me this suggests a pure and clean relationship (like beautiful music) in contrast to prostitution (red lamp, cigarette buts of `clients´) which I suspect Diane is doing to get by. So when Diane moves she takes these items with her, because they represent something very important to her.

`The coffee machine is a modern appliance, but Diane's fridge and stove seem to date back to the 1940's.`

To me this indicates that coffee is important to Diane. Notice how the mafioso rejected the coffee and was disgusted by it. It was something new the studio was offering, straying from their usual brand. To me this `new` coffee is a metaphor for Diane, who was ´literally´ puked out by Hollywood. The mafiosi behind the studio rather have their own choices pushed through. Even a brand new coffee machine can´t help Diane.

`So, if you believe that Diane had been dreaming all along and has finally awoken, you have to conclude that she's also hallucinating.`

`We only see the key on the coffee table when Camilla is NOT there.`

Most definitely. It´s clear that when Diane steps over the couch, she literally is stepping (back) into her fantasy. The disappearance of the blue key and the reappearance

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

of the ashtray confirm this, along with Diane having on different clothes. In fact I believe that everything we see up until the final scene is still the fantasy of the dreamer, only closer to reality in the cold light of day.

Since the blue key symbols to Diane that Camilla is dead we can never see the key and Camilla together.

`Soon after her encounter with Camilla, we'll see Diane masturbating.`

Notice how before the masturbating scene Diane and Camilla had a fight and after that scene Camilla asks Diane to accompany her to Adam´s house. This seems to indicate that Diane is using masturbation as a way to continue her fantasy. To `feel good` as a metaphor to get that `good feeling` back in the fantasy. That´s, why she´s having so much trouble with it: it´s much harder to continue the fantasy during the day. Notice also the blurring of the image that we witness three times: during the masturbation scene and twice at the party. The period between the blurring is each time shorter than before. Each time the segment begins somewhat more positive than before in regards to Diane, but ends more negatively. Notice also the longer extended drumrolls at the end of each blur, signifying the increasing trouble Diane has to continue her fantasy. When ultimately the drumroll makes way for the sound of broken dishes: the fantasy has been smashed to pieces by reality.

`However, there is no red lamp in Diane's apartment. In fact, we have no idea where the lamp comes from. The other odd fact is that Camilla tells Diane that the car is outside her house, but Diane doesn't have a house.`

To me the red lamp indicates prostitution and in her fantasy Diane is repressing this fact about her life. We also see Diane living in beautiful houses in her fantasy, while in reality she lives in two room apartment. She suppresses her reality by making everything more beautiful.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

`The simple fact that Diane will soon be taking a long drive. As you can see, driving can have many different interpretations.`

Yes, taking a drive can be a metaphor for many things indeed. It all depends how it will fit within one´s view.

`According to Freud, the purpose of displacement is to disguise the truth, otherwise it would be too upsetting to the dreamer.`

In this case I guess we´re in agreement that the dreamer is a master in displacement. I believe the overal consensus is that what we see is a dream / fantasy unfolding that is designed to hide a painful truth.

Lynch himself believes that dreams and the subconscious are real, meaning they literally are a part of reality while they follow a certain logic that reason cannot comprehend easily.

Since you consider MD to be a dream or the subconscious of an unseen dreamer, how do you view this? It all playing in someone´s head or the result of a psychoanalysis, meaning with pushes and shuffs from the outside?

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

The dishes are tied in with the breaking of the dishes at the diner....When ultimately the drumroll makes way for the sound of broken dishes: the fantasy has been smashed to pieces by reality.

We agree on this one. There is Possibly even a connection to the crash on Mulholland Drive. So, even though the events seem out of order, you can still tie them together by looking for connections.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

I don´t believe the dreamer is trying, it´s simply the reality creeping in which she is unable to suppress.

Herb tried to help Dan confront his fear at Winkie's. Betty tried to help Rita rediscover her past. Both plans backfired, because the dreamer could not face the truth, culminating in Diane's suicide. Adam is the obvious exception. He was able to face up to his cheating wife. But, did Rita really love him? I guess we can't tell for sure. But, did Rita say she loved him? No!

https://ulozto.net/file/9EpTpdGiOxGB/mulholland-dr-adam-s-mom-mp4

https://ulozto.net/file/VKYVPEWoimlV/mulholland-dr-camilla-adam-betty-mp4

'Dumb, da, dumb, duh, duh, duh, why haven't I told you?'

I don't know about you, but I'm no longer seeing a story about someone who does or doesn't get to be a movie star. I'm starting to see a typical 'love em and leave em' guy, who finally gets pinned down. As I see it, Camilla is the one who got what she wanted, but I'm not sure if Adam did. And Rita didn't tell Betty that she loved her either.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Maybe Diane and DeRosa had a relationship and that went sour due to Diane´s (in your case the Dreamer´s) depression.

Which is why Diane moved to apartment 17. Fair enough. But, it's also possible that Diane's depression is a RESULT of their separation. In any case, I find it odd that Rita seems to know Diane, but she doesn't recognize Betty. Moreover, DeRosa didn't seem to recognize either of them when they showed up at her apartment.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

"In fact we never see any interaction between Aunt Ruth and them (except for the phone call with Betty, but we never hear Aunt Ruth´s voice there, do we?) and both of them seem to be afraid of her for some reason. It seems like they cannot coexist, like Aunt Ruth isn´t real. Like a untruth."

Notice that the girl's and the blue box disappear before Aunt Ruth arrives. I take this to mean that Aunt Ruth is a real person.

https://ulozto.net/file/kBFnnZ3wNS1s/mulholland-dr-the-abyss-mp4

Except for her purse, Aunt Ruth is dressed the same way she was the day Rita arrived.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/4e/d9/nlihUkxa_t.png

This appearance corresponds to a point in time BEFORE Aunt Ruth had left and BEFORE Betty and Rita had arrived. Therefore, the girls had to disappear. Moreover, the incident at Club Silencio coincides with the moment when the accident happened on Mulholland Drive. This collision is yet another Freudian metaphor for sex. Quite simply, white and black represent male and female respectively.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/17/4f/Pf3GZh0c_t.jpg

Ever since the accident on Mulholland Drive, Rita had been struggling to reconstruct her past through her own dreams. Notice that Rita was asleep during the Winkie's incident, where Dan & Herb encountered the boogyman. Rita was also asleep when Betty arrived in the airport. In other words, Betty is Rita's own wish. The girl that is missing is Rita's mom. Rita was asleep when the Castigliani Brothers showed up at Ryan Entertainment. However, the assassination in the office building (where the blond guy 'bangs up' three people) temporarily woke Rita up, allowing Betty to help Rita reconstruct her past. Finally, Club Silencio brought Rita back to the moment when the accident happened.

This is the moment where the father (the magician) comes between the child (Rita) and the mother (Betty). Except Betty is only an imaginary character. Aunt Ruth is Rita's real mother. In Lacanian theory, opening the blue box represents Rita's transition from the imaginary order to the symbolic order. It is the point where the child realizes that s/he and the mother are separate individuals. In layman's terms, it's the difference between fantasy and desire.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

"In fact we never see any interaction between Aunt Ruth and them (except for the phone call with Betty, but we never hear Aunt Ruth´s voice there, do we?) and both of them seem to be afraid of her for some reason. It seems like they cannot coexist, like Aunt Ruth isn´t real. Like a untruth."

As for being afraid, it's Rita who seems to have the phobia.

https://ulozto.net/file/sR9BJ0fnHWYl/mulholland-dr-phobia-1-mp4

She just had a nasty accident. Obviously, she needed help. She didn't ask the police, and she ran away from a couple of pedestrians. Ok, the cops could frighten anyone, but what was so threatening about a young couple in love?

Later, Betty and Rita find a ton of money in Rita's purse. So, we suspect that Rita was in some trouble with the law. But, if Rita was suffering from amnesia, she wouldn't have been the wiser. So, at the time she passed those people in the street, there was no reason she couldn't have asked for help. Unless, she was only pretending to have amnesia. But, Rita sure looked terrified when she saw the corpse in apartment 17. And, the girls would never have even gone to the apartment if Rita hadn't have brought up the name Diane Selwyn.

Interestingly, DeRosa tells the girls that Diane hasn't been around for a few days. So, we surmise that the corpse is Diane Selwyn. DeRosa also says that Diane still has some of her stuff. We eventually learn that DeRosa won't collect her belongings for another 3 weeks, but at that time Diane will still be alive.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

---Herb tried to help Dan confront his fear at Winkie's. Betty tried to help Rita rediscover her past. Both plans backfired, because the dreamer could not face the truth, culminating in Diane's suicide.---

So you see the Dreamer working through her own problems by creating this fantasy? And is she than in control of every persona in this fantasy or do you believe that her subconscious is interfering with this control?

---I'm starting to see a typical 'love em and leave em' guy, who finally gets pinned down. As I see it, Camilla is the one who got what she wanted, but I'm not sure if Adam did.---

Interesting. So you think it might be about Adam, or at least the `indifferent´ that gets hooked by Camilla? What do you think that this tells us or the Dreamer?

---But, it's also possible that Diane's depression is a RESULT of their separation. In any case, I find it odd that Rita seems to know Diane, but she doesn't recognize Betty. Moreover, DeRosa didn't seem to recognize either of them when they showed up at her apartment.---

Yes, it COULD be the result of their separation. I have a different take on that, but logically reasoned this certainly could be the case.

Rita seems to know Diane, but not Betty. In my take on the movie this makes perfect sense. Betty is the fictionalized version of Diane and Rita of Camilla. Through Rita we or the Dreamer sense reality or the subconscious creeping in. I see the movie as going from complete fantasy to reality, so gradually more and more snippets of reality are coming to the surface. Rita and Betty don´t know each other, because they both have been dreamed up by the Dreamer, while Diane, to stick to your take on the movie, is also just a persona in the Dreamer´s fantasy, but certainly closer to reality or rather towards the end of the therapy session..

DeRosa doesn´t know Betty, because it´s still quite early into the fantasy. Notice how she checks out Rita, as if she thinks: `Are you the raplacement of me?`

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

Well, that´s how I interpret it anyway, since it fits perfectly within my overall view.

---This appearance corresponds to a point in time BEFORE Aunt Ruth had left and BEFORE Betty and Rita had arrived.---

This I find very interesting. I hadn´t noticed this about her clothes being the same. It could mean that she had returned from her trip, but I find your take on it more convincing; Aunt Ruth had´t left yet. Since she has got on the same clothes we must assume that it is on the same day as she is about to go on a trip. This means that we have gone back in time. Maybe Club Silencio has something to to with that?

A really nice observation by you, one that I will have to think about.

---Moreover, the incident at Club Silencio coincides with the moment when the accident happened on Mulholland Drive. This collision is yet another Freudian metaphor for sex.---

What do you mean by this? How can this incident and the accident occur at the same time? I agree with you that this incident, the shaking of Betty, is sex related, but I don´t see the connection with the accident as a sex related metaphor. Can you explain this?

---In other words, Betty is Rita's own wish. The girl that is missing is Rita's mom.---
---Except Betty is only an imaginary character. Aunt Ruth is Rita's real mother.---

I find this also really interesting. I never heard this idea as an explanation of the movie. So, Betty is Rita´s wishful mother, while Aunt Ruth is her real mother? If this is so, why would Rita hide from her mother? And why would she disappear in that later scene? I think the idea is fascinating, I´m just trying to figure out how it fits.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

---And, the girls would never have even gone to the apartment if Rita hadn't have brought up the name Diane Selwyn.---

So do you think that this initiative of remembering the name Diane is a conscious effort of the Dreamer to face the truth? Remember that it is Betty who ism eager to go and that Rita is quite hesitant and afraid beforehand. So when you state that the alter ego of the Dreamer is Rita and not Betty, it explains the reason why Rita is upset and Betty not. Rita / the Dreamer senses something wrong, which is the subconscious bubbling to the surface and she is the one who´s upset since we know at the end that Camilla is dead. So if you believe Rita to be the alter ego of the Dreamer than what does Camilla´s death signify to you?

---So, we surmise that the corpse is Diane Selwyn. … ---We eventually learn that DeRosa won't collect her belongings for another 3 weeks, but at that time Diane will still be alive.---

Since Diane Selwyn is listed as the occupant of that apartment, we automatically assume it is her. This assumption is backed up by the fact that we see Diane waking up from that same position as the corpse is in. When the neighbor is asking for her stuff and says that it has been three weeks we must conclude that one of these two scenes is not true. What do you think is the significance of these two scenes? Why have the neighbor say and do different things in these two scenes?

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

So when you state that the alter ego of the Dreamer is Rita and not Betty, it explains the reason why Rita is upset and Betty not.

I believe that both Betty and Rita are alter egos. This idea comes from Jacques Lacan. When we are in our neonatal state we imagine ourselves and our mother joined as a single entity. At some point in our development, we begin to see ourselves and our mothers as separate individuals. During the 'mirror stage', we get our sense of identity from our mother. That is, we imagine ourselves to be a mirror reflection of our mother. This is what Jacques Lacan called our ideal ego, which in this case is Rita.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/7f/33/Jrn3Jv7J_t.png

The ideal ego is what you think others see when they look at you. Whereas, Betty is the dreamer's ego ideal, the person who serves as Rita's role model. She represents ideal traits or characteristics that will eventually become part of Rita's personality. Rita needs Betty for personal growth.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

So if you believe Rita to be the alter ego of the Dreamer than what does Camilla´s death signify to you?

The realization that the 'lost object' can never be retrieved.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

This means that we have gone back in time. Maybe Club Silencio has something to to with that?

Rita is the reason they went back in time. When Rita was sleeping, she was in the process of RECALLING the events that happened before she lost her memory.

https://ulozto.net/file/QZ359czUKTnR/mulholland-dr-rita-s-dream-mp4

Don't you get it? Because Rita is recalling the event through her own dreams, they appear different from her point of view. Club Silencio is Rita's dreamwork reconstruction of the accident on Mulholland Drive, which presumably occurred sometime after 2 am. The really clever part is that somehow Betty became part of it. Somehow Rita's dream became reality. Except Rita's reality is simply part of someone else's dream.

The event at Winkie's (the one where Dan and Herb meet the boogyman) is another one of Rita's dreams, which is also another dreamwork reconstruction of the accident. The same goes for the murders that happened in the apartment building. They are all just different perspectives of the same event as seen through Rita's dreams. The Club Silencio version allows you to see the sexual nature of the event. But the other events represent the same thing. Recall that a gun is Freudian metaphor for a penis.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

So, Betty is Rita´s wishful mother, while Aunt Ruth is her real mother? If this is so, why would Rita hide from her mother? And why would she disappear in that later scene? I think the idea is fascinating, I´m just trying to figure out how it fits.

According to Freud, your first love is your mommy's breast. Then, comes the dreadful day when you have to be weaned on creamed spinach and apple sauce. At this point, a child either does or does not accept that he/she must live without what Freud termed the 'lost object' and what Lacan called 'object a.' According to Lacan, object a is anything that provokes desire. It can be a person, a thing, an idea, or even one's own ego. An clear example of object a is Rita's lost earring.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/58/c9/N4EtwSHN_t.png

https://ulozto.net/file/aGKBUThO94Ly/mulholland-dr-pearl-earring-mp4

Fantasy stems from the subconscious desire to recover this loss object, and dreams are the means to fulfill this desire.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/04/6c/a8tXa74N_t.png

Object a, however, reflects your subconscious desire to be reunited with your mother, not as lovers, but as one single entity.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/c4/a2/zhWLKtba_t.png

Finally, we get to the symbolic phallus.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/fa/49/nQTr2jDj_t.png

This means that the individual ACCEPTS the fact he/she cannot have the lost object. According to such and such a French psychoanalyst, the upward orientation is important. Have a look at these:

https://therapeia.org.uk/ttr/2016/04/12/depression-and-the-lost-object/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIq5zN7rNlI

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

So you see the Dreamer working through her own problems by creating this fantasy? And is she than in control of every persona in this fantasy or do you believe that her subconscious is interfering with this control?

There definitely seems to be a clash of egos. For example, the white car could represent the conscious and the black car could represent the subconscious. The collision could represent a conflict between the two divisions.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/17/4f/Pf3GZh0c_t.jpg

Notice that the accident conveniently interrupted what looked to be an assassination attempt. That is, we could be looking at a lucid dream. The dreamer may realize that she's dreaming and be trying to change how things turn out.

It seems to me that the subconscious is trying to bring the truth to light, but the conscious mind can't cope. In other words, Rita did not completely lose her memory simply because of a concussion. She lost her mind, because she could not face the truth, which is metaphorically represented by the blinding glare of the headlights. Ever hear the expression 'blinded by the light'?

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/5e/be/xdBa0Zn0_t.png

Rita suffered from ego death. That is, her conscious mind was completely wiped clean, leaving only her subconscious. She then had to reconstruct a new ego. It's not really clear whether she really was a movie star before the accident. That's just the person she imagined herself to be.

"And, I raise my head and stare into the eyes of a stranger. I've always known that the mirror never lies. People always turn away from the eyes of a stranger. Afraid to know what lies behind the stare."

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Interesting. So you think it might be about Adam, or at least the `indifferent´ that gets hooked by Camilla? What do you think that this tells us or the Dreamer?

Adam seems like a typical male, who's obsessed with material possessions. He has a fancy car, a big house and a pool, etc. Moreover, we have reason to suspect that he bangs up lots of babes. What was he doing in that dingy motel? Evidently, he frequented the place, since even his private secretary, Cynthia, knew the proprietor as 'Cookie'. Yet, what I'm seeing is some sort of gender reversal. Normally, guys chase after girls, not the other way around. Cynthia seemed delighted to offer him a place to stay, which he politely refused. Remember the conversation between Adam and the Castigliani brothers?

Ray: "We'd be happy to put her on the list for consideration. You'd be pleased to know that there's quite a bit of interest in this role."

Adam: "Interest? There's six of the top actresses that want this thing!"

When Adam finally gets nailed, I score it as a victory for the subconscious. From a Freudian perspective, Adam represents the ego and Mr Roque represents the id. Quite simply, the id shows the ego an image of something it desires, and the ego's task is to fulfill this demand. As a film director, Adam is in the business of making dreams come true. In reality, however, the only thing he can produce is a fantasy, and it's clear that the Castigliani brothers are not happy with his work. So, this is the reason Mr. Roque says 'The girl is still missing' earlier in the film, which also explains why they are recasting. The subtle point is that Mr Roque is really acting as Rita's agent.

https://ulozto.net/file/NvfK6X9WNm1m/mulholland-dr-red-lamp-1-mp4

While she's asleep, Rita somehow contacts Mr. Roque, and few phone calls later, Betty magically appears.

'The girl is still missing' = 'I still miss her.'

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

I believe that it is possible to have multiple interpretations of a movie or a work of art simultaneously. We are perhaps programmed to have only one, since we only have one viewpoint. This however doesn´t mean that other viewpoints are possible and can be equaly valid and logical. Perhaps we prefer one viewpoint over another, but that can than only be based on emotional bias (considering other viewpoints are indeed equal in a logical sense). I´m only talking about interpreting art, not reality of course.

Though I have read many, many theories about this movie, i never came across one like yours. It is radically different than mine, yet I see no faults in it. Not that I´m looking for one, it just seems to fit in a way I never thought of before. It´s like looking at the movie through another lens. I find it fascinating.

---When Rita was sleeping, she was in the process of RECALLING the events that happened before she lost her memory.---

You state that the scenes of the Winkie diner, the murders, Adam finding out his wife cheating and Club Silencio are all Rita´s distorted recollections of the accident. How do you interpret these scenes in this light? I know you talked about the Club scene, where you describe the sexual aspect of the accident is mirrored in the shaking of Betty. How about the other three scenes? How do you interpret these as distorted recollections of the accident?

Do you think the accident is what really happened to the dreamer and that this is what she / he is trying to suppress?

---Fantasy stems from the subconscious desire to recover this loss object, and dreams are the means to fulfill this desire.---

Fantasy doesn´t always have to be connected to this loss object, does it? Maybe it is silly of me to say this, but Rita isn´t trying to recover her earring, is she? Do you believe the earring is a metaphor?

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

You believe that Rita is looking for her mother? Does she know who her mother is? Rita herself has amnesia, so she wouldn´t know, I guess, but the Dreamer?

---This means that the individual ACCEPTS the fact he/she cannot have the lost object---

Do you believe that the Dreamer has lost the mother or do you think that the lost object is indeed something the Dreamer has identified with the lost mother / person?

---In other words, Rita did not completely lose her memory simply because of a concussion. She lost her mind, because she could not face the truth---

Are you talking about the persona Rita or the Dreamer?
You say it could be a lucid dream, but does it have to be that? Could it be that the Dreamer has pondered about this assasination (whatever it might be symbolising) and wished it hadn´t happened? Therefore she fantasizes about it and since this is occupying her mind, she incorporates this in her dreams.

---Rita suffered from ego death. That is, her conscious mind was completely wiped clean, leaving only her subconscious. She then had to reconstruct a new ego.---

This I find pretty interesting. The Dreamer is fantasizing about not having an ego, so that she can create her own? Her lost object is perhaps her ego and she is trying to get it back?

Do you consider Diane to be a continuation of Betty and Camilla of Rita? If so than what the Dreamer ends up with is the ego of Camilla which, at least through the eyes of Betty, isn´t a nice one. She also ends up being dead (as Camilla). What do you think has been resolved by this dead if anything?

---Yet, what I'm seeing is some sort of gender reversal. Normally, guys chase after girls, not the other way around. Cynthia seemed delighted to offer him a place to stay, which he politely refused.---

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

I don´t know about gender reversal. I see more the stubborness of Adam coming to light. He refuses any outside help and suggestions and it´s like he has to go through misery due to his own fault in order to be persuaded. It´s like he is forced by the subconscious of the Dreamer to do the right thing. I get your point about the reversal, but what stands out to me is the fact that Adam seems to get progressively more mild: the first time we see him he is very angry and the last time he is actually laughing (for the first time) at the party.

---Quite simply, the id shows the ego an image of something it desires, and the ego's task is to fulfill this demand.---

Okay, makes sense. My question is: what does this accomplish? What is the reason why the id wants this girl? Moreover, when Adam is shown the picture, he and the audience sees another girl. Why does the id show this girl while Adam / the ego gets another girl to fulfill this demand?

---While she's asleep, Rita somehow contacts Mr. Roque, and few phone calls later, Betty magically appears.---

You talk about Rita as if she has a will of her own. Do you see her as the alter ego of the Dreamer or does she represent a specific aspect of the Dreamer? Is it Rita and therefor the Dreamer who wants to contact Mr. Roque / the id in order to face the truth? If so than why has the Dreamer concocted this elaborated fantasy?

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

I really like your observation of that scene where Aunt Ruth wears the same clothes as the day she went on a trip. I always had trouble interpreting this scene and couldn´t figure it out. Thanks to you it finally fits in my view.

Without considering my point of view, I guess we can conclude that this means that this scene takes place BEFORE her trip and therefor BEFORE the existence of Rita. She only came into existence when she invented the name in the apartment. It´s also BEFORE Rita and Betty met. This means that this scene ERASES Rita completely and we do indeed not see Rita anymore after that. Yet the assassination attempt was still thwarted by the accident. It´s telling that this was NOT erased by this scene, so this must be true, right? Are both true or just one? I believe that that is the question here.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

What is the reason why the id wants this girl?

First of all, we notice that Rita is sleeping when the Castigliani brothers arrive at Ryan Entertainment. Moreover, the brief moment of flight we witness over the buildings is a clear suggestion that Rita is actually dreaming. Flight has many possible interpretations, but it seems as if Rita is 'on top of the world', so to speak.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/2a/81/1HHTzXfJ_t.png
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/57/a7/LNUwKkBm_t.png

Why does she wish to be Camilla Rhodes? Judging from how Camilla behaves later in the film, Rita's demand may simply reflect her desire to be the center of attention, which mirrors Betty's desire to become an acclaimed actress.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Moreover, when Adam is shown the picture, he and the audience sees another girl. Why does the id show this girl while Adam / the ego gets another girl to fulfill this demand?

I take it your question is, how come there are two Camilla Rhodes? At the moment, I'm not really sure. But, for some reason the two make a matching pair. Look closely at Rita's earring. The part that attaches to her ear is shaped like a star. The part that hangs from a small stem is a pearl.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/58/c9/N4EtwSHN_t.png

Now look at the earrings of the two Camillas. They match. The blond Camilla has the star, and the brunette has the pearl.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/04/6c/a8tXa74N_t.png

So, it's as if Rita somehow got split into two people. Just like yin and yang, they go together as a matching set. You can't have one without the other.

All of this brings us back to Betty/Diane who seems to be the 'odd man out'. Betty had no dance partner, Diane had no husband. Apparently, Diane's relationship with DeRosa was important. Once the two separated, Diane wound up without a partner. Notice that Diane's apartment number, 17, is an odd number.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

You talk about Rita as if she has a will of her own. Do you see her as the alter ego of the Dreamer or does she represent a specific aspect of the Dreamer?

Let's suppose that the dreamer is a woman. The dreamer is two people at the same time. On one hand, she is Betty, the talented young actress with a bright future.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/49/8c/hGFZq3qL_t.png

On the other hand, she's Rita the movie star, who slept with more than one director on her way to the top.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/08/9a/YZPdMsBL_t.png

Let's suppose that Rita's stage name is Camilla Rhodes. Whether she's a blond or brunette, it's clear that she's in love with herself.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/04/6c/a8tXa74N_t.png

The problem is, I still can't quite figure out who Diane Selwyn is.

https://ulozto.net/file/6nua5fHcCakw/mulholland-dr-calling-diane-mp4

The scene is intentionally ambiguous. We can't tell which of the two girls is Diane, if either one actually is, and we don't know who answered the phone. At first I thought that Rita was only pretending to have amnesia. But, the way she reacted to the corpse in apartment 17 and her bizarre dreams made me change my mind.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Do you believe that the Dreamer has lost the mother or do you think that the lost object is indeed something the Dreamer has identified with the lost mother / person?

Both are true. Bearing in mind, Freud says we marry people who remind us of our parents. So, another way to lose one of your parents is to lose your spouse.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

--Are you talking about the persona Rita or the Dreamer?--

As far as which one lost their mind, both. Rita is not simply a figment of the dreamer's imagination. She must have some connection to the dreamer.

--You say it could be a lucid dream, but does it have to be that?--

No. It's just a hypothetical argument. But, I still think that a clash of egos is taking place.

--Could it be that the Dreamer has pondered about this assasination (whatever it might be symbolising) and wished it hadn´t happened? Therefore she fantasizes about it and since this is occupying her mind, she incorporates this in her dreams.--

Yes. One way or the other, the dreamer either killed someone she loved, or at least she wanted to at some time. The dreamer may feel so guilty that the wants to kill herself too. According to Lacan, moreover, an act of aggression against someone else can be an expression of self hate.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

This I find pretty interesting. The Dreamer is fantasizing about not having an ego, so that she can create her own? Her lost object is perhaps her ego and she is trying to get it back?

Well, that's something I hadn't thought of. The dreamer wants to make a new start with a clean slate.

"An open mind. You're in the process of recasting your lead actress, and I'm...we're asking you to keep an open mind."

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Do you consider Diane to be a continuation of Betty and Camilla of Rita?

I'm still thinking about this. If anything, their roles seem to reverse. Initially, Rita was the one who was emotionally disturbed. After Club Silencio, Diane became the emotionally disturbed one. In fact, it's the whole change in the characters and the setting that still has me a bit confused.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

I believe that it is possible to have multiple interpretations of a movie or a work of art simultaneously.

There are as many interpretations of a work of art as there are people with an imagination. But how do we know which one is most valid? We get inside the head of the person who made the artwork. In the case of David Lynch, you would simply have to look at more of his films and look for common denominators. As for myself, I'm using psychoanalysis as a CONVENTION. It simply provides a straightforward way to explain what seems to be a rather bizarre film.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

You state that the scenes of the Winkie diner, the murders, Adam finding out his wife cheating and Club Silencio are all Rita´s distorted recollections of the accident. How do you interpret these scenes in this light?

First of all, you have to notice that Rita is sleeping under the kitchen counter in Aunt Ruth's apartment at the same time incident occurs at Winkie's.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/a6/28/Bc2msGi5_t.png

All we have to do is infer that she's dreaming, and what we see at Winkie's is her dream. We know that Rita just went through an experience so traumatic that it caused her to suffer from amnesia. However, even though Rita has no conscious recollection of what happened, the memory of the event is still in her subconscious, and she is recalling the event in her dream. According to Freud, however, the manifest content of our dreams is obfuscated by a process he called dreamwork. In other words, what we actually see in our dreams looks very different than the way it happened in real life.

Secondly, you have to be acquainted with yin-yang.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/14/77/QB9aydRk_t.png

Basically, any two things in opposition form a yin-yang dichotomy. Female vs male, even vs odd, South vs North, night vs day, life & death, etc. Notice also the small white dot in the yin (black) part of the symbol and the small black dot in the yang (white).

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

The event at Winkie's is the yang version of the accident at Mulholland Drive, visualized through Rita's dream. In Freudian terms, this is an inversion.

Winkie's diner represents the limousine, except it's flipped front to back and from left to right. The cash register represents the back of the limo, where Rita had been seated. The boogie man represents the small black dot within the yang half of the symbol. Whereas, the blinding glare of the headlights that Rita saw during the accident on Mulholland Dr. represents the white spot inside of yin.

At Winkie's, Rita's mind is split into conscious and subconscious divisions, represented by Dan and Herb, respectively. Dan's collapse parallels the ego death Rita suffered during the accident (represented by the death of the drivers). Dan, the ego, has to expend psychic energy in order to repress the image of the boogie man, which I call the dreamer's shadow. Herb, the id, is the one who actually has to provide this energy. When Herb goes to the cash register, he's not paying for eggs and coffee. We don't see a lot of money in Herb's wallet, and that's why Dan is forced to confront his own shadow. This is also the psychoanalytical explanation for why Adam is broke. Adam has been repressing the image of Camilla Rhodes for far too long, and he is 'spent' from the effort.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Notice, the similarity between the name Dan and Diane. Notice Dan's buck teeth. Notice how skeptical Herb sounds when Dan decides to tell him about his dream. Later in the film, Diane will be telling Coco about her dream, and Coco will seem sympathetic but unimpressed. Notice that Coco was hungry at Adam's dinner party. Notice that Herb ate his eggs at Winkie's. Notice that Dan's dream became a reality. Likewise, for Rita's dream about Club Silencio.

However, the Dan & Herb version of the scene does not quite match the Mulholland Drive version. There were three people in the limo, but there were only two people in Winkie's (ignoring the bystanders). When the Winkie's incident is over, however, we see that Rita is still dreaming in Aunt Ruth's kitchen. Then, Mr. Roque dials his telephone and says 'the girl is still missing.'

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Do you think the accident is what really happened to the dreamer and that this is what she / he is trying to suppress?

No. I think the accident is a dreamwork reenactment of what Freud called the primal scene. Basically, junior witnesses his parents having sex. Since Junior does not understand sex, he things Daddy is beating up Mommy. The collision between the white and black cars represents sex. In yin-yang terms, white is male and black is female. I think the event at Club Silencio is also a dreamwork reenactment of the primal scene. The magician is Daddy, Betty is Mommy, and Rita is Junior. However, I'm still trying to figure out who the woman with the blue hair is. At the moment, my best guess is that she's the dreamer's anima. Whereas, the boogie man is the dreamer's shadow.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Maybe it is silly of me to say this, but Rita isn´t trying to recover her earring, is she? Do you believe the earring is a metaphor?

Jacque Lacan calls it object a. The picture of Camilla Rhodes is object a. Betty is object a. If it's provactive, it's object a. Lacan's point is that object a is not really what you want. You can't get it. And, even if you do, it won't make you happy.

Remember that song by the Stones? 'I Can't Get No Satisfaction'. That's object a. Likewise for one of my personal favorites, 'Start Me Up'. I like the line at the end, 'You make a dead man cum.' And, 'slide it up' is yet another Freudian metaphor. It's masturbation.

So, to sum this up. The dreamer is not looking for an earring, per se. We spend all our lives looking for that special 'thingy' that will satisfy our insatiable desire. And, according to Lacan, we are all going go die in vain.

https://ulozto.net/file/lzINO1Ng9Kpy/mulholland-dr-la-llorana-mp4

If you Google 'La Llorana' you'll find it's and interesting Latin American folk tale. So, we have another supernatural element in this fucked up dream.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

---Rita is not simply a figment of the dreamer's imagination. She must have some connection to the dreamer.---

Do you think only Rita has some connection to the Dreamer or other personas as well? Personally I think that all characters represent some aspect of the Dreamer´s subconscious or are involved in certain scenarios that depict the Dreamer´s trauma. Moreover, ALL personas have to be based on real life characters as far as their appearance is concerned. You cannot picture someone whom you have not seen. Though you could assemble a persona from aspects from different people in reality. My point is that there must be a reason why the Dreamer `picks` these personas.

---However, even though Rita has no conscious recollection of what happened, the memory of the event is still in her subconscious, and she is recalling the event in her dream.--

Along with Rita I assume you believe that the Dreamer herself is trying to recall the event. And you believe this event to be the car accident, although this could be a metaphor for something else. In this light I understand why you interpret these scenes this way and it actually makes sense.

Regarding this scene I have two questions: 1/ What do you make of this assassination attempt on the girl in the car? 2/ WHAT do you believe is the actual trauma of the Dreamer?

---Rita is sleeping under the kitchen counter in Aunt Ruth's apartment at the same time incident occurs at Winkie's.---

We see these four scenes while Rita is sleeping. We see Rita after her sleeping untill the opening of the Blue Box. Since according to you Rita has a strong connection to the Dreamer, what do think is the relevance of these scenes in relation to Rita and the Dreamer? WHY do we see Rita disappear when she has such a strong connection to the Dreamer?

---Dan's collapse parallels the ego death Rita suffered during the accident---

You believe the accident represents the loss of ego of the Dreamer in real life?

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

You stated that the Boogie man represents the black dot and the headlights of the car causing the crash the white dot in the yin and yang symbol. Yet this symbol is about polar opposites, right? How do you consider the headlights to be positive?

---At Winkie's, Rita's mind is split into conscious and subconscious divisions, represented by Dan and Herb, respectively.---

I think that this is the commonly accepted interpretation of them. Indeed the patient with his psychiater is a real life symbol of this. This Boogie man you could call indeed the Shadow within the Dreamer´s subconscious. But is the Dreamer really afraid of this Boogie man or rather the content of the Blue Box? I mean this Boogie man represents the thing the Dreamer is trying to suppress, which we only come to find out at the very end. To me it seems that there is a progression from denial, to partial denial to reality. Do you agree with this?

---Adam has been repressing the image of Camilla Rhodes for far too long---

Why would Adam repress this image? Don´t you believe it is the Dreamer who is repressing this and that Adam is just the persona the Dreamer is using for this?

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

---Basically, junior witnesses his parents having sex. Since Junior does not understand sex, he things Daddy is beating up Mommy.---

With this in mind, how do you interpret the audition scene?

---If it's provactive, it's object a. Lacan's point is that object a is not really what you want.---

Is it possible to have more than one Object A´s? Is it inherently linked to the loss of the Ego and can this Object change over time? Or rather that when you think you´ve found it, got disappointed and ´create` another Object A? Isn´t it essentially an eternal search just for searching sake? Just to have a goal on a subconcious meta-level? To occupy once mind in order to avoid the unbearable emptiness of being?

La Llorona is indeed an interesting folk tale. In what way do you think it is relevant to the Dreamer and the trauma?

Notice also the lyrics of the Orbison song. It´s about a loss of love which I believe is very pertinent to the overall story of MD.

What do you believe the meaning of the use of Spanish is? And what about the colors red and blue? Do you think they have a particular function?

Just curious how you view all these aspects.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Is it possible to have more than one Object A´s? Is it inherently linked to the loss of the Ego and can this Object change over time? Or rather that when you think you´ve found it, got disappointed and ´create` another Object A? Isn´t it essentially an eternal search just for searching sake? Just to have a goal on a subconcious meta-level? To occupy once mind in order to avoid the unbearable emptiness of being?

For the most part we agree. I just thought it was related to the loss of the mother. But, I suppose you could equate the mother with the ego, since the ego forms during the mirror stage, and it's the mother who serves as a template for the child's identity.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

La Llorona is indeed an interesting folk tale. In what way do you think it is relevant to the Dreamer and the trauma?

It goes back to the loss of a loved one that you can never regain. La llorana killed her own children, so there may be a connection there as well.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

What do you believe the meaning of the use of Spanish is? And what about the colors red and blue? Do you think they have a particular function?

As for Spanish and French, that just shows that the essential meaning of something is independent of the words we use to describe it. It could also be clue about the dreamer. For example, the lady with the blue her spoke Spanish, which connects her in some way to Rita.

As for whether or not individual colors have any special meaning, I don't know.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

You stated that the Boogie man represents the black dot and the headlights of the car causing the crash the white dot in the yin and yang symbol. Yet this symbol is about polar opposites, right? How do you consider the headlights to be positive?

Daytime is yang and nighttime is yin. Therefore the accident on Mulholland Dr. is the yin version of the primal scene. Withing this context, a bright spotlight represents the small white spot in the middle of yin. During broad daylight, on the other hand, dark things/places represent the small point of yin in the middle of the yang.

So, for example, the corpse in apartment 17 is the small point of yin inside the yang. At Sierra Bonita, Betty and Rita saw a man and woman carrying luggage to a car. At 1612 Havenhurst, on the other hand, Rita saw Aunt Ruth and a cab driver, who were just leaving. So, the event at apartment 17 occurred AFTER the collision on Mulholland Dr., and the corpse may represent someone that died in the accident. This could be Rita's ego, except Rita was not yet Rita. So, perhaps Diane Selwyn is who Rita was before the accident.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Why would Adam repress this image? Don´t you believe it is the Dreamer who is repressing this and that Adam is just the persona the Dreamer is using for this?

Well that brings us back to a conflict of interest between the part of the dreamer's mind that wants to repress the image, and the part of dreamer's mind that wants to force Adam to see it. It's the ego, represented by Adam, that tries to repress things. The subconscious, represented by Mr. Roque, is the part of the psyche that wants to bring the truth to light.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Personally I think that all characters represent some aspect of the Dreamer´s subconscious or are involved in certain scenarios that depict the Dreamer´s trauma.

I agree. There's the dreamer

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/df/d6/r4NGU9Zg_t.jpg

There's the dreamer's parents

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/0d/0d/E7rvGqqo_t.png

There are lovers
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/e6/48/1PsHC9s3_t.jpg

And, there may even be siblings.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/c8/59/KxjDTLBM_t.png

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Regarding this scene I have two questions: 1/ What do you make of this assassination attempt on the girl in the car? 2/ WHAT do you believe is the actual trauma of the Dreamer?

If I were Sigmund Freud, I would probably say that the dreamer is recalling a time when she was only a child. The drivers represent her parents. The gun represents Daddy's penis. The trauma is caused by the child's instinctive desire to have sex with her own father. Since this latter idea is social taboo, the memory is repressed. Nevertheless, the experience remains in the child's subconscious. Years later, the event is re-experienced through her dreams. However, the true meaning is obfuscated. What looks from our point of view to be a car crash was Mommy & Daddy having sex.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

WHY do we see Rita disappear when she has such a strong connection to the Dreamer?

Because the accident is what gives birth to Rita. Before that event, Rita was someone else, at least in terms of her ego. The blue box magically appears just after the magician finishes 'mind fucking' Betty. So, somehow the blue box represents birth, perhaps Rita's birth.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

---So, it's as if Rita somehow got split into two people. Just like yin and yang, they go together as a matching set.---

This suggestion indicates that there is a positive and a negative Camilla. How do you consider them in this light and how do you view the kiss at the party?

---Betty/Diane who seems to be the 'odd man out'.---

Well, Blonde Camilla also didn´t have a partner, at least none that we know off.

---On the other hand, she's Rita the movie star, who slept with more than one director on her way to the top.---

So you assume that Rita is indeed Camilla?

---We can't tell which of the two girls is Diane, if either one actually is, and we don't know who answered the phone.---

What do you mean by we don´t know who Diane is? We indeed don´t know who answered the phone, but the importance in this scene is that Rita believes she recognizes the voice, whether it´s Diane or not. I believe it´s left ambiguous on purpose in order to highten the mystery and not to reveal who the corpse in no. 17 is.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

---I agree. There's the dreamer---

You believe the Bum represents the Dreamer self? I s it because you presume the Dreamer is depressed due to the witnessing of the parents having sex? Or because of the loss of the Ego? The Bum represents the Dreamer´s actual state of mind?

---The trauma is caused by the child's instinctive desire to have sex with her own father.---

Instinctive desire? So because she had this desire she is so shocked to find her parents having sex? Than the real culprit is this desire and not the trauma and henceforth you put the blame in and all of itself on her. Is it this trauma that is bothering her OR does she blame herself for `causing` this trauma?

---The blue box magically appears just after the magician finishes 'mind fucking' Betty. So, somehow the blue box represents birth, perhaps Rita's birth.---

Why do you think it is Betty that the magician is `mind fucking` and not Rita? Do you consider the magician and Betty recreating the actual act of the Dreamer´s Parents and Rita watching it? Now, when it is the Dreamer´s instinctive desire to have sex with her father, than why does she imagine her father to be the perpetrator and her mother to be the victim? Would,´t she imagine these roles to be reversed?

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

---After the events at Club Silencio, the dreamer moves further into the past,---
---Rita's demand may simply reflect her desire to be the center of attention---

You say that the segment after the opening of the blue box is further into the past. I have a couple of questions about this.

1. If it´s Rita´s desire to be at the center of attention and indeed be Camilla, does this mean that she at one time was Camilla but became Rita due to the resurgence of the trauma? Does this mean that the ending of the movie is in fact the beginning of the resurgence of the Dreamer´s trauma?

2. The Cowboy says to Adam that he´ll see him two more times when he does bad. Well, we know that Adam doesn´t see him anymore, so the Cowboy must have been talking directly to the Dreamer. My point is that we DO see him a second time, but it´s in the second segment. How can this segment precede the first when a `prediction` come true in the second?

---This event corresponds roughly to the point in time where Rita showed up in Aunt Ruth's apartment, just when Aunt Ruth was getting ready to leave. The man and woman that Betty and Rita saw correspond to Aunt Ruth and the cab driver.---

You don´t think that the woman Betty and Rita see leaving IS Aunt Ruth? You take this `leaving` event the key to place the corpse right AFTER the murder? What is the reason these two scenes are so far apart in the movie?

What do you think is the significance of this woman / Aunt Ruth walking out of this apartment and Diane living in apartment no. 17?

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

If it´s Rita´s desire to be at the center of attention and indeed be Camilla, does this mean that she at one time was Camilla but became Rita due to the resurgence of the trauma? Does this mean that the ending of the movie is in fact the beginning of the resurgence of the Dreamer´s trauma?

This is the point of the film that still has me confused. Specifically, it's the change of characters and settings that occurs after the event at Club Silencio. Lynch gave the cards one last shuffle, as if the plot wasn't already convoluted enough.

The Diane/Camilla part of the story mirrors in some way the Betty/Rita story, but the two story lines are not in agreement. What happened to Rita was an accident, but what happened to Diane was intentional. I'm pretty sure that the woman in the back of the limo lost her mind when the accident occurred on Mulholland Drive. I know she becomes Rita after the accident, but I'm still not sure who she was before the accident. There is an obvious connection between Diane and Rita. Both were riding in the back of the limo on Mulholland Drive. When the limo stops, both women say the same thing.

"What are you doing? We don't stop here."

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

The Cowboy says to Adam that he´ll see him two more times when he does bad. ... My point is that we DO see him a second time, but it´s in the second segment. How can this segment precede the first when a `prediction` come true in the second?

At the moment, I'm not sure that the second segment with Diane/Camilla came before. I'm not even sure that it came after. Maybe it's just a repetition of the Betty/Rita segment. Except, it seems different. So, I'm still puzzling over how the two segments are related.

As for Adam's first meeting with the cowboy, if I were to take an educated guess, I would place this event at the same time the hitman shoots three people in the Ed's office.

1) Cowboys have guns.
2) When, the hitman shoots the vacuum cleaner, he starts a short circuit. We hear electricity and see lights flashing. This corresponds to the light flashing and the electrical noise we hear in the Beachwood Canyon corral.

Of course, we see no shooting at Adam's showdown, but we do sense the gravity of situation. They meet alone in the middle of the night, with no witnesses. It's dark, lonely, and spooky. And, there's a skull on top of gateway to the corral. It seems like a death threat to me.

https://ulozto.net/file/0thOJM8S7RfZ/mulholland-dr-showdown-mp4

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

There's just one more puzzle.

"What'd I say?"

"That a man's attitude determines to a large extent how his life will be."

"So, since you agree, you must be a person who does not care about the good life."

"How's that?"

"Well stop for a lil' second and think about it."

So, I thought about it, and still don't get it. Since when does agreeing with someone prove you don't care about life? Unless, the cowboy means to suggest that Adam acts like he doesn't care. But, then again, Adam has a fancy car, a big house, a sexy wife and pool in the back. He certainly looks like a guy who wants to enjoy life. Have a look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgNt1C72B_4

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

---You don´t think that the woman Betty and Rita see leaving IS Aunt Ruth? You take this `leaving` event the key to place the corpse right AFTER the murder?---

Yes

---What is the reason these two scenes are so far apart in the movie?---

There is no chronological order to dreams. You have to connect the scenes with sounds and images.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

I have to say that I´m enjoying this conversation. Not only do I learn another way of looking at the movie, but it also makes me think about my established view. Well, it keeps evolving with each new interesting aspect that somebody points me to that I haven´t thought of before. It is difficult to discuss different views, because they represent paradigms. Moreover, each paradigm has it´s own language, while we are conditioned in our own way of thinking and seeing the world. Despite this we can however discuss the validity of certain interpretations by looking for the logic in the overall view. Everyone has their own interpretation of the movie and we should encourage people to come to their own conclusions and enjoy the movie the way they see fit. The joy in the discussions for me is to find out new things and learn different aspects and perspectives.

---Lynch gave the cards one last shuffle, as if the plot wasn't already convoluted enough.---

Do you think that this ´one last shuffle´ has a point to it? Personally I consider the second part to be of integral importance to the story of the movie. Not only does it she dlight on what went before, it culminates in a logical and satisfying emotional conclusion. Since you view it as a dream from start to finish, do you see any progression in it?

---It's the ego, represented by Adam, that tries to repress things. The subconscious, represented by Mr. Roque, is the part of the psyche that wants to bring the truth to light.---

We seem to be in agreement here. I too see a struggle bewteen two opposing sides; you call them the ego and the Id, I would call it the conscious and the subconscious of the Dreamer. I guess we are talking about the same things.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

---I know she becomes Rita after the accident, but I'm still not sure who she was before the accident.---

You state that you consider Rita and Betty related as two sides of a coin representing an aspect of the Dreamer, while you are not sure about Camilla and Diane. Here is where our views differ slightly, yet this difference leads to a huge one when our overall views are concerned.

I see a direct connection between ALL the characters in the dream sequence and the ones in the second segment. So I view Betty as the fictionalized version of Diane and Rita that of Camilla. That way I see a direct correlation between the murder attempt in the car and Diane orchestrating a hit on Camilla. You see, I view the woman in the car as being Camilla. So when Diane is taking her ride on Mulhollan Drive in the second segment, she in fact is taking the place of Camilla. And it is Camilla who meets her and is taking her `up the garden path.` She is manipulating and using Diane, just like Diane has experienced it in real life.

Was Camilla indeed an actress? Was Diane indeed trying to make it in Hollywood? We don´t know, because all the info we get is through the Dreamer´s eyes. We only can interpret what the Dreamer let´s us see and we cannot make any certain statements about reality.

---I would place this event at the same time the hitman shoots three people in the Ed's office.---

Interesting. You really make very different connections than I do. I can see your points about guns and looming threat, but I can´t see why this makes you think these two scenes play out simultaneously. When you consider this to be a dream different scenes can depict the same emotion or aspect of the Dreamer´s trauma. So different aspects out of the subconscious are ´visualized,` but can we conclude WHEN certain scenes played out? We can establish different connections between scenes.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

My question is: is their chronology in dreams the way we understand it rationally? Is their a system to our subconscious? It seems to me that what´s the most pressing in one´s subconscious at a certain moment, that will come out in dreams and thoughts. In the conscious it would be in the form of pondering or talking about it alot. In the subconscious through dreams. Now, would dreams depict the most pressing thing and than the next pressing thing and so on? Or...the most pressing thing and than make associations? And than associations based on what?

The one thing we can all agree on is that dreams take a certain amount of time. So...we can conclude that there is an order in the depiction of aspects. With this I mean one at a time with a certain overlap due to the mixing of aspects. They have to be one at a time otherwise we could not remember, recognize and interpret our dreams.

My point is that I don´t see the need nor the opportunity to connect scenes in dreams in place or time. You can argue about that when considering the reality of the Dreamer, but a dream follows it´s own logic outside of reality as we experience it.

That said I don´t consider that MD follows dream logic, but rather the mental process of the Dreamer. So here we have to consider that one aspect of the conscious triggers another aspect of the subcobscious and on and on. I see a conscious effort of the Dreamer to lose herself in her own fantasy, while her subconscious or reality is catching up with her.

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

"Well stop for a lil' second and think about it."

To me it seems the Cowboy is speaking directly to the Dreamer. The Cowboy says that YOU determine to a large extent how your life will be. Adam / the Dreamer agrees, but since the life of the Dreamer is such a mess (or at least her mental health) it seems she doesn´t care about the good life. The Cowboy places the responsibillity of the Dreamer´s state with her (inactions).

Adam reacts very nonchalantly probably imitating the real attitude of the Dreamer. The Dreamer (or conscious) doesn´t want to face her troubles, so she is snarky about taking advise that encourages her to do exactly that. The Cowboy, some part of the subconscious that `knows` what´s the right thing to do tries to get the Dreamer to face these problems. I view him as the symbol of a ´man´s man´ saying the dreamer should `man up.`

About Aunt Ruth: you don´t believe that the woman we see leaving at the Sierra Bonita apartments is Aunt Ruth? She looks the same and is played by the same actress. Who do you think she is?

reply

[–] Erniesam (32) 5 years ago

Do you think we should post under a new thread or post, because the writing space is getting very small.

Have you seen Inland Empre yet? Are you familiar with the work of David Lynch in general? I recommend this movie, though it is somewhat a different beast than MD. The first time I saw it, like with many of Lynch´s movies, I simply hated it. It took me about three or four times to finally finish watching it for the first time. I started thinking about it, talking about it with friends, searched explanations and theories online. Gradually I came to love it. Storywise it follows a similar line as MD, though way more cryptic I would argue. It is shot on handheld dv and it takes time to get used to. Now I actually love this style, cause it gives the movie an immediacy and directness.

Anyway, I hope you have seen it or will see it. Here we can discuss MD which is moreb than enough.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

You believe the Bum represents the Dreamer self?

"There's a MAN...in back of this place. He's the one who's doing it. I can see him through the wall. I can see his face. I hope that I never see that face EVER outside of the dream."

I said before that most of us can't see our own face when we dream. As for the few who do, they often get a very distorted picture of themselves. I don't think the dreamer really looks like that. But, the boogie man represents the dreamer's self image. That is, the dreamer thinks that s/he is ugly. Ever hear of the 'Picture of Dorian Grey'? It's an elaborate way of saying that 'beauty is only skin deep.'

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Instinctive desire? So because she had this desire she is so shocked to find her parents having sex? Than the real culprit is this desire and not the trauma and henceforth you put the blame in and all of itself on her. Is it this trauma that is bothering her OR does she blame herself for `causing` this trauma?

Some of the trauma is due to what she witnessed. Some of the trauma is self inflicted; her attempt to punish herself for her own wrong doing. I think we both agree that it's not her fault, but she doesn't necessarily know that.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

Why do you think it is Betty that the magician is `mind fucking` and not Rita? Do you consider the magician and Betty recreating the actual act of the Dreamer´s Parents and Rita watching it? Now, when it is the Dreamer´s instinctive desire to have sex with her father, than why does she imagine her father to be the perpetrator and her mother to be the victim? Would,´t she imagine these roles to be reversed?

Yeah, I guess you're right. It's Rita who gets mind fucked. LOL. However, I now see Betty and Rita as alter egos of the same person. Yet, at the same time, I see Betty as the mother and Rita as the child.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

This suggestion indicates that there is a positive and a negative Camilla. How do you consider them in this light and how do you view the kiss at the party?

Adam makes a toast to love, and Camilla says nothing. Diane makes a toast to love, and Camilla says nothing. The kiss represents Camilla's love for herself (narcissism), which normally wouldn't be too bad. But, in light of how Diane is effected...

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

You believe the accident represents the loss of ego of the Dreamer in real life?

In Freud's view, the ego is protected by repressing the event. So, presumably, the dreamer simply forgot what happened early in her childhood. But, this repressed event could surface later in life, which could cause mental disorders. According to Melanie Klein, splitting the ego is another way that the psyche can protect itself from trauma. But, as you pointed out earlier, the accident could represent the dreamer's desire to become someone else. It seems clear to me that the dreamer does not like herself.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

where does your interest in psychology come from?

The Wall (Pink Floyd, 1979) was my formal introduction to psychology. I took a couple of courses in college, but Freud (the great grandaddy of psychology) was hardly ever mentioned. I used to laugh hysterically at his sexually explicit theories. Then, when the internet went mainstream, I got a good look at 'adult' films. Ironically, they turned out to be more childish than stuff they make for kids. Perhaps you know what I'm talking about.

'Come now, you've been a naughty girl. You KNOW that I HAVE to spank you!'

That's when I took an interest in Freud. Freud thought the most important experiences of your sex life occurred between the ages of 3 and 7. Even though you probably didn't even know what sex was at that time, Freud believed that childhood experiences shape what you will be like when you become an adult. What happened to you was so traumatic that you repressed all memories of it. Except, they cum back to haunt your dreams in a disguised form.

reply

[–] Zeekmoont (86) 5 years ago

And wouldn´t she downplay the abillities of her rival? Indeed, wouldn´t she make it so that her rival had to sleep with the director to get the role she so desperately wanted?

Fair enough. Or, perhaps Rita is downplaying her acting skills to make Betty look better.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

You're overestimated the general viewing audience.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

This sort of self flattering comment just makes me more convinced I'm right in my dislike of the movie. It's pretty common with the people who loved it, believing its due to their being more than a little smarter and deeper than those who didn't. I mean, it's practically a constant feature in these threads.

You think that you're too cool for school, but I have a newsflash for you Walter Cronkite... you aren't.
-Derek Zoolander, "Zoolander"

reply

[–] Eggman (216) 5 years ago

I agree. Overrated movie.

reply

[–] BourbonKing (5777) 5 years ago

While your explanation makes sense, it exposes Lynch's penchant for using red herrings to disguise the hidden meaning. He also violates the POV narrative if we're to believe that it's all in Diane's head yet we see plenty of scenes where neither her or Camilla are involved in the plot.

This is the same shortcoming of other good movies like Taxi Driver where we're told that it's all in Travis' head yet we get very concise POV scenes where Travis is not involved in the scene by any measure. The scenes are not even shot with the idea of Travis imagining them.

reply

[–] bobbydallas (8525) 3 years ago

that makes sense

reply