Propaganda at its best


I am sure that Hitler would be proud to have Hollywood instead of his Propaganda Office. When a movie where "good" armed-to-the-teeth marines execute "evil" citizens throwing stones and wielding 2 AK-47s, gets a warm welcoming, then hell, everything is permitted on this planet as long as it's the US troops getting killed. It's a movie to justify soldiers killing people defending their lands, something that happens every day.
When we were fighting against the Nazis, they were the criminals and we were the heros. Now thanks to Hollywood, the ones invading are the Heros and the defenders are conviniently renamed to terrorists. Replace "Arian Race" with "Need more Oil" and "Preemptive War" and there you have it.

What a total piece of crap.

WMD anyone?

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My view (controversial): "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'" ... !

When you go into action with a weapon - even as a civilian - then generally, one would request that at least you be aware of the risks which come with that...

The movie does show both sides; it's only the conclusion you have issue with.

Of course this movie is going to attain a wider political context, given the current climate; but now it's 2006, and the fuss over WMD's appears to have abated, a little. That particular argument is rather academic, now!






"Americans are prudes who left Europe 'cos they hated all the kinky sex"

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To all my dear americans. First of all, none of you have seen any kind of warfare, because if you did you would understand this movie. Second, this movie shows how questionable situations can be misineterpreted by media. In Arab countries like Yemen for instance, children and women are oftenly engaged in protests against America. Not neccassarily, but sometimes incidents happen and this is the result. Anyone who thinks that Palestinians in Israel are marching peacefully and get shot for no reason are very wrong. Nobody from Western countries would want to brake peace for no good reasons and believe it or not so do the US marine corps. Try to understand that not all the time there are good guys and bad guys. In the real world this is very rare. this movie is worth of seeing it, because it shows how world is not black and white, but pretty much gray. Certainly it shows no mark of propaganda

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(sorry for my english) I am romanian. I lived for 15 years in communism. In the 50-thies my grand parents has spend a lot of time waiting for american soldiers to eliberate them. War is , sometimes, the only solution. Auschwitz was closed down by soldiers not by pacifists. Nazism an communism has spread around the world because europe did nothing to stop it. All kind of negotiators spend years in all types of comitties tryng to take a decision and a soldier must do that in seconds.We stay confortably in front a PC and argue for days about a decision that a soldier must take in seconds under a tremendous tension.

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Responding to Gothic2

"throwing stones and wielding 2 ak47s"

Did you watch the movie? ALL THE WAY THROUGH?! The tape AND Childer's flashbacks show men, women, and children with rifles and pistols firing voluminous amounts of bullets at the rooftop. They weren't just throwing rocks. They had molotovs. Even the crippled girl that is seen later is shown as holding a pistol and firing it.

If you ever read documentation of urban warfare in an african, middle eastern, or east asian nation that we were involved in, you'd see countless examples of the use of women, children, and old men fighting against Americans because they know that is exactly who we feel reluctant to fight. In the nonfictional book Black Hawk Down, the soldiers had to use flashbang stun grenades to clear out some women and children being used as human shields by the insurgents.

Rioting and attacking a US embassy is never ever EVER defending your homeland, as you say they are doing. It was instigated by a terrorist group that is prominent in the country IF YOU PAYED ATTENTION TO THE DAMN MOVIE.

BTW, the man who wrote the screenplay is James Webb, a well known Marine who was wounded many times and decorated with some of the most valorous medals that one can recieve. He wrote the very famous Fields of Fire which soberingly showed how fulfilling duty was the moral high ground and draft dodging was just hiding from responsibility. Shows how the heros of America are the blue collar and the misfits, not the pretentious intellectuals. It is hinted at in various places of the movie. One must read it if they EVER plan on deciding what is considered moral on a battlefield. The book is required reading for Marine officers. I think Webb is more qualified to decide what a battle would be like when compared to a goth.

Gothic2. How dare you compare the United States Marine Corps to Nazis. They are all better than you and have done something you would never be strong enough physically or intellectually to do.

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America is the greatest country in the world nay, the universe. And if you whiny troublemakers don't like it, you can pack up your s**t and take your slow Prius to Canada you anti-American communists.
You pathetic cowards all cry and spew your communist poropaganda but its us marines who are stopping the terrorists from taking over this country.

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Well.. that was coherant. ^.^

anyways, I dunno if I missed it on the way through, but no one seemed to point out to the original poster (who is most likely long gone by now :P) that this movie was made a year before 9/11 and the invasion of afghanistan, and about 2 years (I forget the exact timeframe involved :P) before the invasion of Iraq. This means that the story was written more with a post-mogadishu (Black Hawk Down, for those who aren't familiar with the story... I reccomend at least seeing the movie, it's quite good despite the "oh no, not the guy with the family back home!" aspect to it which is more of a narrative neccessity in turning a ****storm like the running battle in Mogadishu into a coherant story than it was pure propaganda) mindset than an Arabs-are-public-enemy-number-1 mindset more common post 9/11.

The movie was IIRC made AFTER there had been several major attacks on US Embassies (I can think of at least two, both of which were Al Queada, so having the people of Yemen as the agressors in this movie wasn't a huge leap away from reality) so the story of US civilians working on sovereign US soil (inside the embassies) being targeted was still at least somewhat fresh in the minds of the public. Also the attack on the USS Cole I believe was somewhere in the last few years of the 90's, so attacks on US troops who were serving a non-offensive purpose were fairly recent as well.

Strangely, I went into seeing this film under the impression it was based on a true story. I'm not sure where I picked up that notion, but I swear I remember some kind of documentary airing on SBS or the ABC (I'm australian, for those unfamiliar with those networks, they're two government funded networks, and thus tend to be the ones to get a lot of documentaries, although the SBS is usually somewhat more... provocative than the ABC since they seem to be under less restrictions) about a very similar sounding attack on an american embassy by an armed mob.

Meh, I'm sure eventually I'll figure out where that memory comes from.

Anyways, it's obvious to anyone who can read the year this movie was made that it can't possibly be pro-Iraq War propaganda because at the time this film was made there WAS no war in iraq (well, no invasion) and no war in Afghanistan (just a lot of human rights people complaining about the Taliban).

One little side note on the "it's all about oil" thing, btw... In a way, I believe it's KINDA correct in a roundabout way. The original Gulf War (Desert Storm) was caused by oil. Not by the americans neccessarily wanting Iraq's oil, but Iraq invading Kuwait due to Kuwait undercutting Iraq's price for oil, thus forcing Saddam to sell his reserves for far less than he would normally get, and thus putting a bit of a crimp in his economy. Saddam, of course, retaliated. Unfortunately he chose to do so in a way that brought down the wrath of the rest of the world. The biggest mistake in this entire deal was that the US shouldn't have waited 10-11 years before completing what had started in Desert Storm. It's a matter of all or nothing, quite simply.

George Bush (Sr) basically did the right thing going in to liberate Kuwait from Saddam's forces. However, it was quite obvious that Bush's ideal end result was taking out Saddam, who was basically a problem that previous US presidencies had created through trying to fix other problems they'd created through their own mistakes (Iran, specifically). Bush wanted to sweep their own mistake under the rug (Notice all the cold war mistakes coming out to bite people in the ass nowdays? Bin Laden was a result of US training in the fight against the soviets in Afghanistan, Saddam AND the currently hostile Iranian government are results of the CIA's influencing persian politics, and then trying to clean up afterward, etc... The only other example I can think of at 3am is the previously mentioned Pinochet in south america) but the problem was they pushed the Iraqis back into their own country, and got the Iraqi people all excited about the idea of freedom and convinced them to rise up and take on Saddam's government.... then stopped. They pulled out. If the war had continued to the extent of the 2002 war back then, not anywhere near as many people would have complained. Instead Bush relented and the US forces pulled out.

Flash forward about 10 years or so, Bush's son manages to get into power and after jerking around for a few months gets thrown neck-deep into the war on terrorism. This leads to Operation Enduring Freedom (gee I hope I'm getting these names right :P It's late dagnammit)where Bush sends troops into Afghanistan to go after the ringleader of the attack on the WTC and Pentagon. Suddenly Bush has a taste for blood, and has experience in deposing unfriendly governments, suddenly he gets an idea. Why not go in and finish what his dad started in '91? Sure, Saddam was a monstrous leader, but he'd been effectively cripped by Desert Storm and the following trade sanctions and later UN bombing campaign. He posed no threat whatsoever and the safest way to work things probably would have been to do what they basically did to North Korea and Cuba... just ignore the country while it's not a threat and hope the dictator dies of natural causes and gets replaced with someone less opposed to the US ideal. This means that in 2002 the war just wasn't easily justifiable. The fact that evidence had to be fabricated to justify the invasion is proof of this.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly anti-war... however, I'm not pro-war either. The way I see it, getting rid of saddam was good, however the execution of the invasion itself was what was done poorly. Had US forces simply rolled over the border into Iraq BEFORE George Sr had destroyed the trust of the Iraqi people for the US, while the americans were still greeted as the saviors who were going to save the people from Saddam, and before Al Queada and other related groups had managed to get as strong a stranglehold in the region, then the occupation probably would have been somewhat shorter, it would have had more support since there wouldn't have been as many countries telling the US 'it's your mess, you deal with it'. Rebuilding would have been faster, and between faster rebuilding and lower levels of hatred toward the US, the troops would have been pulled out earlier to prevent the monumental loss of american lives in the war.

But hey, that's just a guess. It's possible it would have just peeved off the region earlier and brought on 9/11 style attacks sooner rather than later. I aint paid to know everything about foreign politics so all I know is what I read and hear about, so who am I to say what'd happen? All I can put forward is my opinion of how things would have gone (yes, that's a disclaimer to stop people from saying I was putting forward my own muddled memories as facts :P)

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>>>America is the greatest country in the world nay, the universe

Yeah? Congratulations! I'm not sure I can think of a reason WHY, or what it's 'the greatest' at... perhaps you can explain?

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I am from Iraq and since the invasion I have lost many family members all of whom are civilians. The rest are dying through lack of medical supplies. The events on which this film are based took place in South America. Hollywood changed it to a Middle Eastern Country because it did not want to offend the Hispanic population because then they would not go to see the film and the studio would lose out on their money. Where as no one cares about insulting the Arabs because the Western media has reduced them to sub-humans whose only emotions are lust and violence. When was the last time we saw Hollywood portray an Arab family engaging in ordinary domestic activities? By reducing Arabs to 'the other' we can demonise them all we want.

Peace.

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dear omarmadison,

I absolutely agree with you.

History has tried to make us understand, but we didn't change: nowadays we talk about globalization, equality, justice, but we still have to face racism, fanatism, and war.

There's many people out there thinking that war is REALLY the best choice to "save" U.S. from their brand new "enemies"...because they see it on TV. It's simple, cheap, and effective.
And allows American corporations to dominate the most precious resource on Earth: OIL.

U.S. people please stop this situation! You can do it with your vote, you really HAVE the power to change things. No more invasions, no more Iraq, no more Vietnam, no more 9/11s, no more Anthrax, no more innocent victims.
You will not prove that you are the greatest country in the world with weapons.

But you will do it with Peace.

Respect to you all,

an italian friend

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I just posted my thoughts 2 years ago and never bothered to look back cause I knew that a flame war with opinions like "omg, marines rule, America is the best" blah blah crap would follow.
I only read the first few posts and I'm 100% with Combatreview's opinions. For the record, I'm Greek, served in my country's military for almost two years (it's obligatory) and all I know is that I wasted my time since I would provide much better services to my country doing something really worthy, like a REAL job and not following my superior's stupid orders like a toy soldier, or as someone put it, a cow.

I know when the movie was made, but Hollywood propaganda isn't something new, it dates back to World War II when it was trying to convince the American people to join the war, something that only happened after they felt the Axis breathing on their necks, after Pearl Harbor.

I wonder how many of you know that there are actually Military sponsored and funded movies; yes, your taxes go to movies as well, like Top Gun, Pearl Harbor, Anapolis, Rambo III and other crap like that, to serve its propaganda services and point directly to whom the "bad guys" really are, according to Foreign Office of course.

I have no problem with the actual country, but only with its citizens that qualify as sheep and believe every crap that Hollywood, media and potiticians serve, as long as the package is nice. Nationalists, Elitists and plain old Nazis exist in all countries around the world, but only in USA there's such a propaganda production machine such as Hollywood. I actually have some american friends that I love a lot so I don't think I qualify as a US hater, just a US foreign policies hater, which is different and clear to people who study history and look beyond their own country.

I do wish that people will eventually start walking up, cause if USA goes to hell, the rest of the Western world will follow, something that was proven when the Western economies were so badly damaged after 9/11.

I'll probably check that topic again in two years cause most of the replies that will follow are totally predictable, hope some gang-ho forum members will understand that I say such things because I actually do care.

PS: Nazis believed that they had the greatest country in the world and leveled countries to prove so, including mine. They also believed that they were serving their countries and civilian casualties were all in the "game" of War. It is sad that 60 years after, the idea remains the same, but the term changed to "patriot". Guess when you have a father who cleared German mines at the age of 7 with his brothers and was a step away from dying from hunger, you do learn a thing or two about what war is really like; not a video game where you click a few buttons and watch people explode on CNN.

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People in US is the dummest people in the whole world!
In my country every child know to find every country on map.
I watch some tv show where some americans pin Irak and Italy on Australia contient :D
Half of you can find Yemen only with army transort ship!
And half of you can find way back to US only in black box with US flag on it :D
After Irak, price of oil is not cheaper for you, but is cheaper for someone else :D
US Millitary spend 1bil $ for one day. Use this money for somethin usefull!

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[deleted]

God Bless America. Defend her and love her or get the hell out. AND WHEN YOU GO PLEASE TAKE Michael Moore, Martin Sheen, Cindy Sheehan and the other commies with you. Thank you for your time.

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Right. You can't disagree with the bureaucracy, right? That would be un-American. I'm sure you NEVER voiced any opposition to the administration when Bill Clinton was president. If we end up with Obama or Clinton in office, can we deport you when you disagree with their policies? Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

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I totally agree, gothic-2

This movie is the most racist cr@p I have ever seen.


"What's that smell?"

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Well, at the beginning i kind of agreed with Gothic 2, with only a few doubts.

Some of the "Patriotic Americans" have left me with no doubt that Indeed this film is propaganda... at its best.

It seems to have done the job with some naive Americans.

Obviously all Americans are not bad, but the majoirty are.

This is the main reason why this film is soo bad. Its too hollywood, and its only targeted at patriotic Americans

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Those of you who think Hollywood is "pro-American propaganda" obviously have not spent enough time in the US or seen what happense when some dim-wit celebrity gets hold of a microphone. The vast majority of people in Hollywood are semi-socialists who deride the government and military every chance they get (not that there's anything wrong with being skeptical about government... logical skepticism is necessary in my view).

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"I wonder how many of you know that there are actually Military sponsored and funded movies; yes, your taxes go to movies as well, like Top Gun, Pearl Harbor, Anapolis, Rambo III and other crap like that, to serve its propaganda services and point directly to whom the "bad guys" really are, according to Foreign Office of course."

That's a bit absurd, especially considering you have no viewpoint or validation for that particular opinion. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the government sponsored Pearl Harbor, because that movie stunk :) Governments and bureaucracies tend to diminish works rather than improve them. As far as Rambo 3 and TopGun, anyone who thinks that they are serious military movies probably still believes in Santa Claus.

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"(sorry for my english) I am romanian. I lived for 15 years in communism. In the 50-thies my grand parents has spend a lot of time waiting for american soldiers to eliberate them. War is , sometimes, the only solution. Auschwitz was closed down by soldiers not by pacifists. Nazism an communism has spread around the world because europe did nothing to stop it. All kind of negotiators spend years in all types of comitties tryng to take a decision and a soldier must do that in seconds.We stay confortably in front a PC and argue for days about a decision that a soldier must take in seconds under a tremendous tension."

Thank you for your perspective. I know a few people who lived in Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union, and I know a Dutch Holocaust survivor. War is horrific, but when faced with a horrific ideology, war is sometimes the only way to remove that threat.

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""US involvement in Arab countries is imperialist, and usually has to do with oil"?

If we invaded Iraq for cheaper oil, why does it cost more? That line of thinking is as ludicrous as Venezuelan President Chavez's belief that the U.S. intends to invade HIS country. Why would we do that, for cheaper drugs?"

If the US was only going to war for oil, we WOULD have invaded Venezuela instead of Iraq. It's closer, so shipping costs are less, and there are far fewer insurgent types :-P (this was in jest, in case that doesn't come across correctly with text).

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"Yeah, aerial bombardment (nothing to do with this movie) has been hailed as a quicker and less costly form of combat, but it has resulted in the innocent as being the main casualties of war."

You are apparently unfamiliar with military aerial bombardment and artillery. Modern militaries (mid 80s to now) currently have equipment that embarrasses anything seen in the 40s or 60s. A laser-guided bomb (unpropelled, in free fall and only guided by minute fin movements) can hit a target within 9 feet of point of aim when dropped from thousands and thousands of feet above ground. An artillery round (ballistic only, no propulsion or post-muzzle guidance) can hit a target within 10 yards from MILES away. A guided, self-propelled cruise missle can fly through a 4 foot by 4 foot window and detonate within a building without damaging neighboring buildings. Civilian casualties in actual combat are rare. Most civilian casualties in the modern era are the results of mines, suicide bombers, roadside explosives, etc, OR the result of military and paramilitary groups disguising themselves as civilians.

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"You see, unless US is a socialist or communist country, there's no such thing as "for my country", there's only "for me". Nobody really cares "for my country" but just "for me""

While this may be true for yourself, please don't extend your personal agenda on people who are more altruistic than yourself. While our government and elected officials have strayed from the very un-socialist founding principles of this nation (personal liberty, freedom, and minimal government interference), there are plenty of us left who hold these principles in high enough esteem to risk our lives in their defense.

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