Season 6 episode 13
"you probably dont even hear that when it happens"
You think chase will just put those lines with no meaning?
Its obvious tony got shot and died otherwise the camera wouldent focus on that guy with the brown jacket
Tony is dead. Deal with it. And its not paulie or anyone else. Its new york. Butchie is too hardcore to forgive tony. He set him up to know his location
I do think tony was killed.
shareIt was an observation about the nature of the Mafia and death. It wasn't Baccala revealing anything about Tony's fate because nothing is established that shows Baccala would actually know anything about that.
sharehttps://youtu.be/PjviymV08c8
http://timeisaflatcircus.tumblr.com/
I'm not seeing the scene showing any hiring of these guys to be the hitman, or the scene establishing that anyone wants Tony dead.
shareProbably Patsy. This was the one I thought I'd linked to before.
https://youtu.be/Cd9OsHsLJ28
http://timeisaflatcircus.tumblr.com/
You didn't link a scene showing Patsy setting up that hit, or where it is made clear that Patsy is going for Tony. If the creators wanted you to believe Patsy killed Tony, why didn't they show the scene establishing that? Instead they went to great pains to show that the Parisis will be closer to the Sopranos than ever before with the marriage.
shareThere's numerous easter eggs in the final scene that all point to Tony being killed:
-There's a far-away shot of Tony sitting alone at the table in the middle of the restaurant=The last supper.
-The two black guys at the register=The two black guys who tried to assassinate Tony.
-Meadow failing to park the car twice=Two failed hits on Tony.
-The members only jacket=Eugene, a deceased character, wore a members only jacket.
-The bathroom was at Tony's three o'clock, which was the message Christopher brought back from hell.
-Members Only guy went to the bathroom before killing Tony, which was a nod to Tony's favorite scene from The Godfather.
-Also, every time the entrance bell rang, Tony looked up, and the camera showed someone walking through the door. The last time the bell rang, Tony looked up, but instead of showing Meadow walking through the door, it went to black.
Face it, Members Only guy walked out of the bathroom and blew Tony's brains out.
I'm not looking for easter eggs, I'm looking for set-up. Loose associations don't really set that up. If it is really clear that he died, then what is stopping the creators from explicitly setting that up? Show a scene where the gunmen are hired. Hell, even show a scene where they (whoever they are) talk about killing him. There's nothing like that. Instead there's nothing. Why if you want that to be what the viewers take away would you only set it up with vague hints? What purpose does that actually serve?
shareDavid Chase explained why he didn't show the actual hit, to f@#k with people. He hated the fact that so many people wanted to see Tony's brains get blown out after they spent eight years rooting for the guy.
shareDo you have that clip of him saying that? As far as I know he has remained mum/vague on the topic and never once offered a definitive "Yes he's dead" or "No he lives" answer.
shareThere's no clip, but this is from his interview with Brett Martin, done shortly after the finale aired.
There was so much more to say than could have been conveyed by an image of Tony facedown in a bowl of onion rings with a bullet in his head. Or, on the other side, taking over the New York mob. The way I see it is that Tony Soprano had been peoples' alter ego. They had gleefully watched him rob, kill, pillage, lie, and cheat. They had cheered him on. And then, all of a sudden, they wanted to see him punished for all that. They wanted "justice." They wanted to see his brains splattered on the wall. I thought that was disgusting, frankly. [...] The pathetic thing—to me—was how much they wanted his blood, after cheering him on for eight years.
Reading the statement carefully he never makes it clear that his intention was to kill off Tony Soprano. Only that those wishing for Tony to be seen dead at the end were a little perverse.
shareIt wasent patsy dude.this isnt how the show works. Its a realistic show. They went for a "show dont tale" attitude. The shooter was behind tony. He dident see him. The fact that the screen went dark for awhile before the credits started. They do wanted the viewer to know that tony died. They just wanted the viewer to think things up and not make it obvious.
Its wasent patsy and it wasent paulie. It was new york. The "deal" was a scam to get tony's location. They were willing to sacrificed phil because they dident liked him anyway. But they hated jersy to the core. It was actually phill himeself who kept the good connections. Butchie(the short guy) hated jersy to the core and hated tony to the core.anyone who was a regular watcher and knew how the new york families work could tell that. That fast sitdown was too suspicious as hell. Dont forget this whole war started because tony badly injured one of their soldiers. If that was enough for them for starting this war you think they would forgive tony that quick? Thats it. Thats what happend
I don't really agree with that. The mob has codes, you don't do a fake peace treaty. New York was telling the truth when they agreed to back off, but they changed their minds after New Jersey killed Phil in front of his family, which is against mob code.
sharethey gave up the ok to kill phil also because they knew they gonna find him wanyway. they tricked tony. you right they do have codes. which jersy hasent had. jersy just like they said wre bunch of undignified farmers. they would never back off so fast. butchy was in charge. he hated jersy and hated tony. he laughed histericlly when christopher died. do you think someone like that would really back off so quick when new york got the upper hand? make no mistake this sitdown. this cry for help was jersy idea. they have no power to deal with new york
shareIt's funny that we never actually see that scene where they are shown to care. I mean really who's going to press that claim the hardest? Phil's widow? We know no one in the mob really gives a *beep* about widows except to give them their monthly stipend. That's been shown numerous times. If it was super important that he broke the code, then why didn't the creators SHOW that? Why hide that scene?
shareNo offense, but does everything have to be spoon-fed to you?
shareThe show does tend to do set-ups, like most quality programming does, and doesn't really leave major moments like this ambiguous. I mean we don't learn of Christopher's relapse by it just happening, we see several scenes of him building to that moment. That's generally how quality narratives are built - off of prior scenes. So I guess I can throw back at you the question - do you need to constantly twist everything to your pre-determined conclusions?
sharethey dident because they dident wanted to give it away.sopranos do alot of things off-screen in order for the viewr to think about it. like i said. jersy was a disgrace. a boss that going to a psychatrist? in real life he would be clipeed immidiatly.tony doing what he did to cocco was the strew. new york wont back off for that. never. they already suspected jersy for killing fat dom (which they did). killing tony dosent mean they ended the jersy family. they still wanted connections with them because the biggest priority is to make money. but tony had to go. what he did is unforgivable.
shareIt isn't even about being "spoonfed" as much as the creators of this show know what they're doing, and since a scene showing "whoever" determining Tony (the main character of the show) to die would be dramatically fascinating, why not show that scene? Why just leave that out? This is a drama show, why would they be totally disinterested in showing a scene setting up the hit? Remember how awesome that scene was where Phil was setting up the entire war with Jersey? "There's no scraps in my scrapbook"... great scene. So why not show the scene where THE MAIN CHARACTER is ordered to die if that's what they really intended to be the definite takeaway from the final scene? It makes zero sense. Why not make it clear who Tony's killer is? Show the scene with the Russian waking up bleeding from the head in the frozen snow, or Phil's widow pleading for justice, or Parisi being like "Now is the time for revenge"... why the hell NOT show that? Maybe you're right in that the creators of the show suddenly forgot what the hell they were doing. That's certainly possible - many shows fall off the rails like that in the run up to the end. I don't really think that's the case.
shareBecause if they did he wouldent be talking about that now wouldent we? Because they chosed to make an ending that will have the fans talking about it for a long time after it. Would you prefer a terrible ending that gives you all the answers like dexter?
And what do you mean they dident talked about it. In the begining of the last episode phil tells them on the phone to hit tony first. They dident know where he is. Thats why the fake sitdown. So tony will think its all setteled and they know hes no guarded and his locattion and whack him easly
They dident showed you them talking after that sitdown cuz they dident want to give it away
It doesn't require us to interpret the final scene as his death for us to be still talking about it. I don't think of it as "giving all the answers" as much as "telling the story"... Sopranos was a really well-told story that set things up pretty well. There were shocking things that happened in the series, but they were pretty well set up and the story was fully told. I don't understand why at the last minute they would stop telling a pretty important part of the story for no reason.
And it is funny how everyone who agrees he died, completely disagrees on how he died. Either New York whacked him because he gunned in front of families, or Parisi got some belated revenge, or Paulie took it upon himself to take over... I've even heard it said that Tony had a panic attack and blacked out. And yet there really isn't any shown evidence for any of this.
I don't even think of my position as "Tony lives" because to me that's like saying at the end of Full House "Danny Tanner lives"... I think the show and its ending boils down to more than just a live-or-die-Tony story. That's the fans bringing in expectations they have established from other crime stories, into this one.
In an interview with CNN in 2015:
"Still, if anybody is hoping that Chase reveals whether Tony survives, they'll have to keep digging. The end is deliberately uncertain and existential, Chase said."
Soooooo, we'll never know and the question will go on forever. So give it up.
"Soooooo, we'll never know and the question will go on forever. So give it up."
Except, we do know. Tony was alive and well when the published story ended, so any talk about what happened after the published story ended falls into the category of fan theories.
The correct answer to the question is that Tony didn't die, and nothing can change that fact, not even Chase himself, since he doesn't have a time machine. Even if he came out and said outright that Tony died, that wouldn't change the fact that Tony did not die in the episode of The Sopranos which originally aired on June 10, 2007.
I'm not seeing the scene showing any hiring of these guys to be the hitman, or the scene establishing that anyone wants Tony dead.
"you probably dont even hear that when it happens"
You think chase will just put those lines with no meaning?
Well, when you're dealing with a work of fiction, you can't really apply the laws of physics. Foreshadowing is a common fictional element. Thinking they foreshadowed Tony's death earlier in the season is nothing like believing in Nostradamus. (Unless, I suppose, you want to argue we're living in a virtual reality. Then, of course, the laws of physics as we know them become merely an illusion.)
shareNo, what I'm saying is that there's no proof Pussy's comment was foreshadowing.
If Chase ended it with Carmella being shot in the head after Tony ducked (for instance), then someone would come up with a prophetic statement *she* made in some other episode.
It's too easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. I for one refuse to help out the writers by playing the game. To me, the story was ended with no resolution.
Yes, I believe Tony is dead at that point. Pretty pointless Chase putting in all the talk of "never hearing it", the flashback an episode before of Bobby saying the exact same thing, Sil witnessing that assassination when the sound cuts out totally and the blood splatters his face before we hear the gun firing.
BUT! Everyone argues about the Members Only jacket guy sat at the counter. Why even assume he whacked Tony? Tony was a cardiac arrest waiting to happen at that point, could have easily just dropped dead of heart failure. The way Chase would always eschew the predictable "Mob" storylines and subvert expectations I wouldn't be surprised if Tony was killed the way we least expect it. Heart attack, brain hermorrhage.... but yes, he died. And poor little AJ would never be able to enjoy an onion ring ever again....
I think Chase accomplished exactly what he set out to accomplish....an ending that will still be discussed, and debated, years later. Some believe Tony was whacked and point to certain "clues" from previous episodes. Some believe that nothing happened at all and have their reasons. If it was 100% definitive, how many comments would be out here on the topic??
shareAll true.
Chase certainly isn't the first to tell a story either in film or music and not have any resolution. If Chase gets satisfaction from debates about the ending, then he accomplished what he wanted.
Personally, there is no debate. Tony could be alive or dead. The story had no conclusion despite any clues that could be retroactively applied to either argument. If Chase wanted Tony either dead or alive, he should have filmed it that way. That he didn't shows me he didn't know how to end it. Filming it would have had far more impact and made a far longer lasting impression. I mean, he could simply have Foley'd in the sound of gun being cocked, Tony looking up, Tony's eyes widening or showing recognition or even anger.... End Scene...
If the "answer" can be discerned only after debate, what good is that? The moment was gone. I watched the last episode with my wife and brother and to be honest, by next morning I really didn't care one way or the other; the moment having passed. If I found out that HBO had an equipment failure and the resolution scene was lost, I still would have shrugged thought that it was too bad I couldn't have experienced it while my mind was locked into the story. Again, the moment was lost.
I do however find some entertainment about the debate itself if not the actual answer.
Clues were applied prior to the conclusion not inserted retroactively. Otherwise, how does that explain the editing build up at the climax, the flashback to Bobbys boat and Tony's statement that death is something "you probably don't know when it happens", and the silent drawn out cut to black. Again, the conclusion was Tony died and he didn't know that it happened, like the audience - evoking death as a mysterious adrupt blackness. That's the conclusion and its intended power - lost if there's a gunshot sound or some other Hollywood resolution.
shareClues were applied prior to the conclusion not inserted retroactively
The clues were there to be looked at retroactively or people like me knew that Tony was killed right away after some initial intended confusion. It's not a betrayal or a cheat for viewers to have a think just a little and join the dots.
There are no clues to say that Tony died of a heart attack. The editing was set up to show that the Members Only guy murdered Tony from behind while he was distracted by Meadow walking through the door as she was late parking her car.
Again, why do you think there was a flashback to Tony mentioning death coming as a suprise and the editing set up to show Tony being clipped? Because that's what happened. Does everything have to be shown? Chase didnt want the predictable image of Tony dying - he wanted something more profound.
When did Chase contradict himself in an interview?
Again, why do you think there was a flashback to Tony mentioning death coming as a suprise...
The ending supposed to convey Tony just living on with a target on his back is incompatible with the editing, the flashback, and the silent cut to black.
Actually, there were references in the coma as well. Tony looking at those dark trees before he awakens is mirrored by his staring at the dark trees in his yard before Carmela comes out to tell him they'll be eating at Holsten's.
No he didn't miss. The profound and inpactful ending is there. It's only your choice if you want to ignore it.
While I am perfectly open to the idea that Tony was whacked at that precise second; there is no proof of it. And by "proof," I am not referring to literally seeing him dead. Many cinematic and TV deaths are shown off-screen and are clear and definitive. This was done in an ambiguous way. They wanted us confused and arguing over it for years.
All the arguments that he died are compelling and, again, I'm open to them being ultimately correct. But what's on screen could be his death or simply an ending with no resolution, echoing the song's words about life going "on and on and on." The story continues. There will constantly be new developments, new conflicts, new deaths, new family dramas and we (the audience) have to let go sometimes and so... cut to black.
I don't know. And, based on what is on screen, what is off it, and what is heard and not heard... I never will.
The ending is, I suppose, art. And I'm fine with it. I just wish it was a bit simpler. Not because I'm a simpleton, but because I spent season after season watching this guy and his family and his crew. I was invested in this epic crime saga and in this fascinating mafioso for many many episodes. I'd like to know FOR SURE whether or not he lived or died. I'd like a story resolution. Not necessarily a life resolution since there aren't really resolutions in real life. But a story resolution. This is, after all, a narrative.
But whatever. Chase went the way he went and it's fine.
[none]
Tony went into witness protection, his death was faked by the FBI.
Nah, just kidding. He's dead.