Wow, what a bad movie


This movie is slow paced, historically innacurate and teriible cast. Choosing between what is worse Jewell's acting or Toby's dry dialogue is like choosing which way you want to commit suicide. Instead of focusing on the war we are instead treated to bush-wacking in Bumscrew, Missouri. The editing is as bad as a snuff film. If you are thinking of watching this movie do yourself a favor and stay home and watch home videos of your drunk uncle groping your cousin at the family wedding.

reply

agreed this movie sucked!! i never say it and i bought it just cause i like jonathan brandis and when i watched it i was so bored with it it wasnt even funny and jonathan wasnt really even in it that much r.i.p jonathan brandis

reply

I also just bought this film because Jonathan Rhys Meyers stars in it.. This film is really boring!

reply

I can see how it would be boring for people who don't understand or who are unfamiliar with the Missouri/Kansas Border War. In fact, it went through several versions during screening that featured more explanatory text at the beginning, but that ended up confusing people even more. But it was very historically accurate. The War in the West is almost totally ignored by most history books, and finally here is a movie that does a good job of telling that story. Hopefully this movie has given at least some people a deeper sense of what this particular aspect of the Civil War was like. The Missouri/Kansas Border during the 1860s was the closest thing America has experienced to the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict, with the loyalties of towns and even families split right down the middle. In Missouri and Kansas, the Civil War often very literally consisted of brothers fighting brothers.

If you want a standard Civil War epic on the well-known Eastern battles, rent Gettysburg or Gods and Generals. But that's not what this movie is about, and the War in Missouri is certainly a part of American history more people should understand. You can't really understand the War as a whole, in fact, before you understand this complicated conflict and the role it played in the war as a whole. Personally, I enjoyed this movie a lot more than I enjoyed Gods and Generals, and I thought the symbolic friendship between the black Confederate partisan and the German Confederate partisan was particularly powerful.

"Are we on Cops, Harold? Harold, are we on Cops?"

reply

The Jeffrey Wright character wasn't a Black Confederate partisan because there was no Confederacy in existence at the time. South Carolina, the first state to secede, did not do so until Dec of 1860. The Civil War began on April 12 1861. This conflict over slavery, not rooted in the equivocal euphemistic reasons cited for the Civil War, pre-dates the Civil War. It began in 1854. Your statement about it taking place in the 1860s is dead wrong. It was 1854-1860.
I don't know what was so 'symbolic' about the friendship between the Jeffrey Wright character and the German character unless you are referencing people who fight to oppress their own countrymen as the Nazis during World War II did to their fellow Germans who happened to be Jewish, gay or intellectual. Even so, as I said that character was not a Confederate but was was acting based on a personal loyalty to his owner. Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the idea of a heavily armed black man wandering alone during that conflict without being molested is ridiculous. Given the reasons for that war this is highly unlikely. How would anyone know what side he was on and would they believe it if he told them? More importantly would anyone have given him the chance to explain himself? I don't care what side you're on, given the odds what would YOU assume if you saw him coming? Not even those who delude themselves into thinking that slaves and former slaves had any enthusiasm for the Confederacy could possibly think that those people would form a majority and if only for self-preservation's sake they'd have to assume that such a person would hardly be taking up arms in a pro-slavery cause. This is one of the many ways in which that film was historically inaccurate and philosophically cowardly. In fact it might be better to describe it as dishonest rather than inaccurate. I don't blame Lee so much. It probably looked like a good story to him and Lord knows how that particular period of American history is taught and interpreted in other countries. Bad enough to see how it's mis-handled in the US. If Lee wanted to make a pro-slavery movie he should have done so. This film is an atrocity and Tobey Maguire's bloodless acting only makes it worse.

reply

http://www.geocities.com/11thkentucky/blackconfed.htm

reply

Thanks muchly for pointing out this website. I find it to be very informative.

Anybody want a peanut ?

- Fezzik, " The Princess Bride " ( 1987 )

reply

[deleted]

Uh, this was the Civil War in Missouri 1861- 1865. Go check you books silly.

reply

The Lawrence Massacre took place on August 21, 1863. Bloody Bill Anderson was killed in October of 1864 a month after the battle of Centralia, Missouri.
Quantrill was killed on May 10, 1865. Although there were raids and fights from 1855 until 1861, most of the fighting and blood letting
occured during the period from 1861 until 1865. I saw nothing in this film that suggested or even hinted at a pro-slavery bias.

reply

The Missouri Compromise of 1820 divided the region and started a series of conflicts that led to the Kansas-Nebraska act of 1854 (which in effect nullified the Missouri Compromise). The act (authored by Stephen Douglas) authorized local governments to make their own decisions on slavery. This led to numerous disputes between the territories known as "bleeding Kansas."

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_Kansas

reply

There are too many accounts - official Union records - of Black Confederate soldiers serving alongside white soldiers in the Civil War to deny their existence. Right up to Appomattox where a few days before the surrender Black confederates fought off a Cavalry attack on Lee's wagon train.

Union observer (a doctor) reported estimate of over three thousand black confederates integrated in the army of Stonewall Jackson's 2nd corps marching to Sharpsburg in '62. To mention a couple.

reply

Jeffrey Wright gave a standout performance in this as he always does. The film was probably a little too historically correct for box office numbers. I thought it was a great movie. There were no agendas in this movie. I think it speaks of the tragedy of life and the occurence of people being pushed or fooling themselves to take sides against what they believe for the love/loyalty of a friend. Dutcy's "it ain't right and it ain't wrong, it just is." is echoed throughout the film.

Teri.

reply

I hope Jesus does help you because your knowledge of the history of the time and place is really astoundingly pitiful.

While the conflict in the region did start circa 1854, the movie and the events (the raid on Lawrence, Kansas, for example) definitely ALL took place after Missouri's secession and the formation of the Confederate States of America. Better start pulling out the old history books before you get on your high horse again with someone who obviously knows a lot more than you do.

The character of Holt (Jeffrey Wright) was based on a Free Black man named John Noland who rode with Quantrill as a scout and spy. He was only one of several who rode with Quantrill.

How you wound up assuming that this movie was pro-slavery is anybody's guess since the real message was that Jake and Holt were both "just men" who discovered their common ground when thrown together in life-threatening situations. If anything, it was anti-slavery - but that's another point you missed aside from not having the foggiest idea what years the events portrayed took place.

Were there Black Confederate soldiers? Yes, just like there were 13,000 Indian Confederate soldiers (including Cherokee Chief and Confederate Brigadier General Stand Watie), 6500 Hispanic Confederate soldiers (several of them Colonels), 3500 Jewish Confederate soldiers (aside from the Jewish Confederate Secretary of State), and even a handful of Filipinos out of New Orleans who fought in the ranks of the New Orleans Avegno Zouaves at the Battle of Perryville, KY.

Try history. It's really better than self-righteous ignorance.

http://37thtexas.org

reply

you go. Spectacular movie. Attention spans just short.

reply

[deleted]

*I can see how it would be boring for people who don't understand or who are unfamiliar with the Missouri/Kansas Border War.*

What you are missing is that of they folks are bored it probably means they have no interest in history or the human condition as portayed in this excellent Ang Lee movie.

This movie is classic Ang Lee. Characters who are real and situations that are ambiguous. If one has little interest in exploring the human condition, one would indeed be bored. This could be seen as an anti-war movie. This could be seen as an exploration of the human toll enacted by the civil war (or by any civil war for that matter. But of course if you don't give a rat's ass about minor issues as these you may indeed be bored. go back to reality TV.

reply

[deleted]

It was great! It was so un-hollywood in its depth and attentions you ought to love it.
If you read up on the history a bit (who'd have thought , guerrilla warfare in America?) the subject might become more interesting to you. I hope so, movies aside-- its definitely something to learn about in light of the wars our people are fighting today.
Jewell was a surprise, she did very charismatic, subtle job.
I will buy this film, it really blew me away. And the ending is so honestly hopeful! I can just see a two story western following this.

reply

Historically inaccurate? Who told you that? Your liberal history teacher?

Never say "Worst Movie Ever!!!" to someone who has seen "House of the Dead"

reply

"Historically inaccurate? Who told you that? Your liberal history teacher?"

Liberal history teacher? What an odd thing to say...

reply

It is not historically inaccurate, it is actually surprisingly true to the Missouri/Kansas situation during the Civil War.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

Ang Lee Rules!!!!!!

reply

This movie was EXTREMELY inaccurate and bad-spirited to boot. One of the reasons for the Kansas Missouri conflict was that the area housed some of the most extreme pro-slavery adherents in the history of the country. I'm not talking about any sort of "Confederate patriotism" as might be attributed to some who participated in the civil war. This was a war about slavery and the people who fought on the pro-slavery side had little more than that on their minds as a reason to fight. I spent a lot of time in the area and spoke to several hostorians about the conflict and they all considered this film to be little better than propaganda. As for "Black Confederates" -the free blacks who tried to fight for the Confederate cause were very few and mostly in Louisiana where a group of mixed blood men, sons of slave owners and their black mistresses who did not in any way think of themselves as having any cause in common with other black people in general or slaves in particular formed a volunteer regiment. The Louisiana group was rejected by the Confederacy and some went to the Union side. As for those slave who "fought for the confederacy- there were almost none who saw combat until the very end of the war when the South had all but lost and even those could hardly have been considered adherents to the Confederate "cause". As is obvious to anyone who gives it a little thought, it is impossible for a slave to "volunteer". What's he going to do, say no? The slaves in the South were kept puroposely illiterate (most slave states had very severe and strictly enforced laws against teaching slaves to read and write. This makes sense when you remember that many people, black and white slave and free were illiterate or semi-literate and since the difference between a free black person and a slave was only proved with documentation and slave who could produce an easily passed forgery (given the lack of literacy mentioned above)could actually write his own ticket to freedom. Any slave who "volunteered" to fight for the Confederacy did so based on information filtered through and given by the very people who had a vested interest in keeping him ignorant of the nature of the conflict and the occupying Union Army. Hooror stories were told of what the union troops would do with the slaves once their owners were not around to "protect" them. These were people who were born into bondage, most of whom had never traveled beyond the boundaries of the farms and households they worked in. Some on the larger plantations had never even seen the full extent of those places. Any slave who "fought" for the Confederacy was prey to the manipulation of fact by his owners and did so on the basis of "better the devil you know than the devil you don't know".
When slaves were finally "allowed" into the Confederate army they were poorly armed if at all and were mostly used for the same menial tasks they were used for as slaves. When they were armed at all it was with substandard and outdated weaponry.
America has long tried to ease its guilt over slavery by portraying it as a benign institution with a happy group of slaves perfectly content to peacefully serve their benevolent masters. Yes, it is true that there were good and decent people who owned slaves. It was after all, very neccessary to the way the Southern economy was set up and it was legal after all. It took a lot of eye-opening to see the sin of the institution and some people, through no fault of their own, ever became enlightened. Despite that, the institution was an evil one and there is absolutely nothing good to be said about the ownership of another human being.Absolutely nothing. A slave with a cruel master wishes for a kind one. A slave with a kind one wishes for freedom.
Not enough is known about the day to day aspects of slavery. We all suffer for that. That's how we end up with people who actually think that people would take up arms to preserve their own bondage. It is wishful thinking. Those who stand up and say tyhey support slavery and the Confederacy and wish the outcome of this conflict and the Civil War that followed had been victories for the slave-holding cause are much more honest and even, in a way, more worthy of respect than those "heritage not hate" equivocators who actually believe that there could be something such as a contented or happy slave. Impossible. Not while they're still drawing breath anyway.
As for the film itself think of this: Jeffrey Wright's character is so loyal to his master that he not only eschews any opportunity to escape but he also fights for the slave-holding side. In doing so he rides through the area alone and fully-armed yet unmolested. How realistic is this? A heavily armed black man riding alone where he will during a conflict when the only assumption to be made by anyone with a lick of sense is that he is fighting for the anti-slave faction? How could this be? Do you think anyone stopped and asked his beliefs? If they did do you think they wouuld have believed his answer? If they, by some great stretch, did believe him do you think they would accept him or just blow him away just to be sure?
You don't have to be liberal or conservative to see the flaws of this movie. You just have to have common sense.

reply

Do they not have paragraphs in the North?

reply

Pleasehelpmejesus,

You have a lot to say there. Some of it is opinion and I'll let that stand. The issue I have with what you said has to do with the assertion that the motivating factor for the Missouri guerrillas' fighting was to support slavery. You said, "This was a war about slavery and the people who fought on the pro-slavery side had little more than that on their minds as a reason to fight." I have heard experts argue both sides of that. Some say the Civil War was about nothing more than slavery. Others contend that it was a conflict over states' rights. I'll leave that argument to the experts. What I would like to comment on is how the conflict was faught between Kansas and Missouri in the years leading up to the Civil War.

I believe that slavery was a very divisive issue. We have all heard that it was neighbor against neighbor and brother against brother. I have no doubt that some such instances occurred, but I think that in the Kansas/Missouri area the lines were much more clearly defined.

Kansas Territory was created by the Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854), which allowed for popular sovereignty to determine whether a state would enter the union as pro- or anti-slavery (thus repealing the Missouri Compromise of 1820). This effectively made Kansas Territory a place for the pro- and anti-slavery showdown to take place. "Bleeding Kansas" soon followed as both groups came to represent their side and do battle in the new territory. All of that is well known.

I think the part that is so often over-looked is the fact that many of the anti-slavery people migrating into Kansas were easterners. This area was (and to some extent still is) rural and conservative, populated by simple folk who were suspicious of outsiders. I think that natural suspicion turned to hostility and outright hatred when these people started telling those already settled in the area how things were going to be. In short, I think that many of the Missouri guerrillas were motivated not by slavery, but by a violent unwillingness to allow outsiders to come in and dictate local policy (For a modern example, see arguments regarding the Ten Commandments, Evolution the Confederate Flag, etc.). In other words, they didn't take kindly to the eastern carpet-baggers telling them how it was going to be.

I know this is an over-simplified version of events that relies somewhat on rural stereotypes, but given the fact that many of the supporters couldn't afford a slave (and therefore could receive no direct benefit from the existence of slavery) I think it's a perspective worthy of consideration.

reply

Essentially I agree with repete, but to REALLY simplify (and put it in a nutshell) let me quote Granny of Beverly Hillbillies fame:
"The Civil War started because the Yankees invaded America"

reply

Excellent refutation of the flamer's revisionism, repete. You saved me the trouble. I actually live in and grew up in the area. I grew up on tales of Anderson and Quantrill and have been to the latter's grave. The war actually started in 1855, here on the frontier, and lasted until 1866, with a bit of a lag between 1858 and 1861. The lag was caused by the Yankees having successfully moved in and occupied what was essentially southern territory and most of the southern people having moved back into Missouri. Were it not for the Kansas-Nebraska Act, there would have been very few Yankees in Kansas. It would have been settled predominately by Missourians, just as Missouri was settled by Kentuckians and Kentucky by Virginians. Kansas, essentially, was the first occupied territory of the War Between the States.

Here on the old Border, Col. Quantrill is still a hero to some of us. He fought back and gave hope during the dark days when the regular Confederate forces had retreated before the invader and given over the country to them. Quantrill was a former Kansan, as was Capt. Anderson. Capt. Anderson's outfit was the 1st Kansas (Confederate).

I have come to chew bubblegum and kick asss...and I'm all out of bubblegum.

reply

Good commentary there kidd.

You say you live on the border and I am having no trouble telling which side of the border that is. :-) I live on what I'm guessing is the opposite side of that border. I haven't been to Quantrill's grave, but I have been to the memorial in Lawrence honoring those slaughtered by Quantrill's bushwhackers. So we probably have different perspectives on the Bloody Kansas events, including our opinion of Quantrill.

reply

Some of my Gunter (that's a Welsh/English name, btw, not "dutch") ancestors from Texas allegedly rode with the James brothers and Quantrill. To this day I don't know how I feel about that ...

jma

reply

My reasoning for placing the war's end in 1866 was the death of Little Archie Clement at Lexington during that year. He commanded Bill Anderson's former outfit and represented the last well-known organization of armed resistance in Missouri. Of course there are always the James-Younger gang, who were just starting out in that same year.

I have come to chew bubblegum and kick asss...and I'm all out of bubblegum.

reply

Because the Union was oh so nice and fair to blacks, slave and free.

Just a word of advice:

Never speak (or write) in absolutes, especially when it comes to history. It is never that simple.

And by the by I am one of "those "heritage not hate" equivocators" and it has nothing to do with a belief "that there could be something such as a contented or happy slave". It's about reclaiming the confederate battle flag from the racist bastards, hate groups, and white supremacists who have come to define

reply

Here are Two possible reasons that a Black might have supported the Confederacy:

1. Personal devotion to his master. A slave might have felt that his owner treated him very good, better than slaves held in other areas of the South.

2. If the Confederacy had won the war, the black might have thought that he would have been rewarded for his allegiance to the Southern way of life.

There are plenty of Black Neo-Cons who exist even today. Does anyone remember the Black talk show host from a few years back called, 'The Black Avenger'? His name was Ken Hamblin.

I don't think that this was a widely held view, but since a tiny minority of Blacks DID support the Southern Cause, these might be two reasons for their position.

reply

Pleasehelpmejesus, what you talking about?

The movie (you aint been following very well, I reckon) was based on a novel, Daniel Wooodrell's Woe to Live On, wich it adapted with great accuracy. You might take it for a flaw, that it does not blend with today's highly anticipated political correctness, wich it only could have done by reversing, or even denying its approach on historical accuracy.

A war was fought, and war is land and wealth and little else. Never was, never will be.
Idealism, like in this case the freedom of the slaves, is politicians talk to justify aggressive behavior with a noble cause. As important as this cause was and still is, the Union Armies would not have marched a mile south, had it been the only purpose.

Also it was neither the writer's nor the director's intend to paint the great picture of slavery in the south (a terrific thing, but not the topic of neither book nor movie), nor an overall image of the civil war, but to tell the tale of the struggle between irregular bands of the South and the North on both sides of the Missouri/Kansas border.
The movie tries not for an objective account, as all mayor protagonists were men of the south, and the story is told but from their points of view.
And the movie works not because we care about their cause, but about themselves.

Of course it was quite unusual for black men to walk free and fully armed in the South, is why the J. Wright character, Daniel Holt, once the fighting started, got his guns handled over by George Clyde, and returned them, once the shooting was over. After Clyde's death Holt stays armed, but only among men he knew and fought alongside, and who knew him too for at least the last two or so years.

reply

I am a former liberal history teacher and I loved this movie. History is complex and changes over time but what happened on the border between Kansas and Missouri is a lost chapter in the years between 1855 and 1865. There were blacks who rode with Bloody Bill Anderson and William Quantrill just as there were Mexicans who fought at the Alamo. I have been hearing stories about the border raiders since I was a young boy. My Great Grandfather rode with Anderson
and lived to write a book about his experiences during these years. James Carlos Blake "The Wildwood Boys" is a great novel about Bloody Bill.

reply

Or any Dr.Boll film for that matter

reply

I know nothing of American history but I now know a bit more now. This is a great movie that cuts directly into the 'they are bad, we are good' mentality of conflict and those incloved in it. A great metaphore for current times. Needless to say, another stunner from Ang lee

reply

I saw this film years ago. I don't remember ANYTHING.
the only thing that I remember is Pitt Mackerson, what a weird character.

reply

I think this movie wanted to mention one thing "Independence"..Civil war was one way to explain this item but If you watch it carefully you can see that the movie was going parallel with jeffery Wright :Daniel Holt (Slave)He always wanted to be free even his owner set him free.He was quiet and under his owner's pressure; he was never ready to say his own feelings and decisions..This situation was corresponded with Civil War to make a conclusion into independence feelings that's all..

reply

It's based on a novel and you have no taste.

reply

I personally think this is an awesome film, whether accurate or not, another great piece of work by Ang Lee. The casting was excellent, especially Meyers and maybe I'm alone on this but I feel that Tobey Maguire was perfect for his character.

reply

[deleted]

It is my opinion that if one does not like this movie, that person can easily be judged an idiot.


"Cate Blanchett is a creature sent by the Gods to delight us."

reply

I live in Australia and have always been interested in the Amerian civil war. Does a movie/story have to be absolutely historically accurate to have human interest? I've seen this movie 3 times now, the first time I stumbled on the video at a local video library, I like Tobey Maguire and Jewel and a few other actors in it - I was enchanted with the story and the acting and the characterising. It wasn't released in theatres here so it's not known in Oz. I think Jewel is just lovely and I think she did an excellent job in this movie.
Ang Lee is no slouch, he wouldn't waste his time making a movie simply for the hell of it. I bought the DVD today, because it has only just been released here.
Can someone verify for me that a different song of Jewel's was used over the end credits - the video had her "Angel Watching Over You" but the DVD has a song called(?) I Love You ????

reply

[deleted]

Right you are. What made Lincoln great was being assassinated.
Regarding authenticity, this movie did pretty well--maybe not as well as "Gods and Generals" but pretty well. I remember the bad old days when every single soldier, Blue and Gray, wore a kepi and carried a weapon that wasn't invented until the 1870's or later.
The figure I've always heard is 650,000 deaths--but this refers to combatants only. When civilian deaths due to collateral damage, starvation, disease, and exposure, all related to the war and almost exclusively in the South, are added in your figure may be about right.
"What's Simple is True" is the song over the credits on my DVD (which is faulty as it "jumps" through some scenes)and also the final song on the soundtrack.

reply

"What made Lincoln great was being assassinated"

Not to be unkind, but that is one of the more ignorant statements I've seen on IMDB (and that's saying something.) Other than a few modern-day secessionist wanna-be's, I think you'll find no historians of any merit who would agree with that.

And the previous post (which you term "right") is badly flawed also. The issue of slavery's role in secession and war is complex, as are the reasons for abolition as an eventual war aim (and the timing of the introduction of abolition into the war effort.)

But I'll boil it down for you, as concisely as I can, since I'm not going to re-hash for the umpteen millionth time the details. Hunt around on the Civil War movie boards; you're bound to find innumerable threads on this issue.

To sum up:

1. Slavery was the prime mover for secession, and secession was the reason for war. So while neither side considered slavery an express concern until over a year in, it was always the primary underlying cause.

2. Lincoln was always anti-slavery, but was not an abolitionist until the war moved him to that course (he, like the vast majority of anti-slavery men, was a champion of containment.) But from early 1862 on he moved as quickly in the abolition direction as circumstances (military and legal) would let him. The characterization in Legolas' post is grossly off-base.

3. While there is no way to know for sure, it is highly likely in this observer's opinion (a deeply educated and well-read opinion, but opinion nonetheless) that slavery would not have died out before the turn of the century in a separate South. And whether Lee, Jackson or Stuart were anti-slavery or not is immaterial in this question. (For the record, Lee was pro-slavery though not strongly, Jackson was probably anti, and I doubt Stuart cared one way or the other.) The political leadership of the South, the ones who precipitated secession, were pro-slavery (look how much fuss was kicked up when the Confederacy finally decided to arm slaves in early 1865.)





"A mountain is something you don't want to *beep* with" - Frank Zappa, "Billy the Mountain"

reply

Not wanting to rehash anything, well too much of anything anyway, for the millionth time either I will simply, and briefly, say if Lincoln was great he was great in the same way as Alexander and others were great--he accomplished a difficult task on a large scale. He was a tyrant anyway you slice it and just about singlehandedly destroyed the form of government our founding fathers created.

reply

Actually, he saved the government our forefathers intended from permanent fracturing from the determined efforts of a section of the country to divide it. But spin it in whatever way makes you feel better.

"A mountain is something you don't want to *beep* with" - Frank Zappa, "Billy the Mountain"

reply

"But spin it in whatever way makes you feel better."
Same to ya buddy.

reply

"Ride with the Devil" was released in few US theaters either--DVD sales did well due to word of mouth. It did receive the History Channel's award for best historical movie of the year though.
Some think the reason it got such poor circulation (remember Lee was an Academy Award winning director) was that it was not politically correct and didn't present all Southerners/Confederates as the bunch of slave-owning demons that Americans have been brainwashed into thinking them to be. Our history has to be dumbed down to (no pun intended) black and white, good guys and bad guys so the simpletons our public schools are turning out won't be confused or forced to think through difficult subjects.

reply

You mean the Southerners were not all slave-owning demons?????

;-)

"A mountain is something you don't want to *beep* with" - Frank Zappa, "Billy the Mountain"

reply

I love Toby Maguire in this - he nails it. He seems good in these understated but powerful roles reminds me of his performance in Cider House Rules.

reply

I really enjoyed this movie. Without being an expert on the field, I am quite sure it is more historically accurate and realistic than 95% of all other movies of the same genre (many of which I enjoyed nevertheless).

But after all, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter either whether you like Jewell, Ang Lee or whoever participated. The movie is good in itself, the actors are doing well and the story unfolds all by itself, as do the side-threads and the discourse.

I consider the development of the relationship between Clyde and Holt, and later, Holt and Roedel, as the best part of the movie. Very well done and pleasantly different from the shallow pathos too many movies are overloaded with.

However, if you like classic western movies such as John Wayne's "Alamo" this one might not be something for you.

reply

What makes this movie unlike others is the correct period dialogue that Lee uses. As a writer and historian I believe it captures the CW time frame better than any other movie ever made. Great movie. TM was excellecnt.

reply

Agreed. I'm not a civil war buff, but even I know the fighting in Missouri and Kansas couldn't have been conducted almost entirely with pistols. And the long, long, long interludes between battles are so disconnected, boring, and pointless. The movie would have been better if it had been an half-hour shorter. Not good, mind you, but better.

I decided to see this movie after hearing an interview with Daniel Woodrell, author of Woe to Live On, on which this movie is based. Sounds like an interesting writer. He said the money he got from selling the screen rights keep the wolf from the door long enough for him to establish himself as a writer. At least something good came of it.

reply

"even I know the fighting in Missouri and Kansas couldn't have been conducted almost entirely with pistols"
I am a Civil War buff, and reenactor, and amateur historian and I thought the same thing. However, after reading (among several books on the subject)"The Devil Knows How to Ride", which is an excellent history on the border war, I learned otherwise. The bushwackers prefered pistols for the firepower. Most long arms were singleshot muzzle loaders which can be loaded and fired about 3 times a minute--when you're standing on the ground, forget it when you're on horseback.
Most carried 4 or more six-shooters giving them at least 24 shots as fast as they could pull the trigger and switch guns. Since most of the fighting was done at close quarters the greater long range accuracy of rifles was not a factor.
In short the film is accurate regarding weapons.

reply

I really liked the Dialogue, and the dialect was spot on, my Mother told me her Grandfather actually talked like that.

An older John Wayne movie "Shepherd of the Hills" had a lot of the Missouri/Ozarks dialect which is similar. Don O Vernon and my Grandfather helped Harold Bell Wright with the proper dialects for that book.

I find it fascinating.

reply

[deleted]

i am shocked ,SHOCKED,i tell you, that hollywood would not accurately portray a period piece to the nth detail.

reply

[deleted]