Most have already touched on the idea that fighting smarter, like Obi-wan, trumps fighting harder, like Anakin, but I'd like to bring up another possible variable in the Obi-Wan + Anakin vs Dooku fight, which may shed some light on why Obi-Wan beats Anakin later, and that variable is Palpatine.
The whole rescue mission and fight itself was orchestrated by him, and he is present in the room the entire time the fight is going on. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to suggest that, through the Force, he may have been hindering and/or enhancing certain people's abilities while the fight went on. Realistically, how else could Dooku lose to ANAKIN of all people, if there wasn't some sort of unseen interference?
Lets go back to episode 2 for a second and remember that Dooku fought Yoda, generally accepted as the most powerful Jedi among the Order, and very easily held his own against him. Their fight was a stalemate, but since he loses to Anakin in ep. 3, are we saying then that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda? That's a bit of a stretch...actually, a huge stretch.
That brings us back to ep. 3 where Dooku somehow loses to Anakin 1v1... We know that Palpatine is looking to recruit Anakin at some point, so, since he needs Dooku out of the way, he's not going to allow for the possibility that Anakin be defeated, and so, perhaps he gives him a bit of help by assisting his Force awareness, physical stamina, etc, and/or hindering Dooku's (and Obi-Wan's) ability. Palpatine is a master strategist and has been guiding the future all along, so I don't see why he wouldn't also be guiding this fight towards the desired outcome. Obi-Wan is taken out early so that Anakin is left alone to make the decision to execute Dooku, and Obi-Wan isn't there to object, all according to a carefully crafted plan.
Then we arrive at Obi-Wan vs Anakin. Why did Obi-Wan win? Well, going by the fight with Dooku, it's because Anakin was never as strong as he thought he was anyway. He defeated Dooku...with the unknown potential assistance of Palpatine. Taking this possibility into account, it's easy to see why Anakin loses to Obi-Wan, especially when we also consider the "smarter vs harder" method, on top of everything else.
________
The Internet: Serious Business
reply
share
Gadget110
8 years ago
Obi-Wan is a defensive fighter in AOTC, tired, and worn out from fighting in the arena against the creatures and then the battle droids, Anakin is as well, Dooku however is well rested and also a duelist with more skill and ability then either at this point.
In ROTS both Obi-Wan and Anakin have been fighting in the clone wars, gotten more combat experience, more focus on lightsaber battles due to dark siders, sith acolytes, and have youth. Dooku is still a powerful duelist but he's also older, did not get into as many battles in the clone wars, and has not gotten more skill from the war since he does not actively participate as much.
ROTS Anakin is stronger, is more focused, knows how to properly tap into his anger for a "power boost" and Dooku is a big source of rage as he cut off his arm in AOTC. Dooku does not really expect a serious fight since he won easily the last time and underestimates both Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Obi-Wan defeats Anakin in ROTS because they have trained together a lot, they have opposite styles, and they know how the other fights which is why Obi-Wan just "waits him out" letting Anakin unleash his rage and finally make a poor decision. Obi-Wan is defending the whole fight because he is a defensive fighter and he knows that Anakin as offensive fighter will eventually tire out or slip up.
"Always two there are , a master and an apprentice"
reply
share
Hydrilus
8 years ago
I don't really disagree with any of that as possibilities. I'm okay with saying "Dooku underestimated them and didn't give it his all" and/or "Dooku didn't stay in practice over the years in the same way that Anakin kept improving," that's all valid to me. I just wanted to add one more possibility to the discussion, that Palpatine may have had a hand in the outcome. Lightsaber duels are mental battles just as much as they are physical battles, and I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Palpatine was, through the Force, subtly nudging the fight in Anakin's favor.
________
The Internet: Serious Business
reply
share
spencerdiaz
8 years ago
But...there's no evidence of that.
reply
share
Hydrilus
8 years ago
The below quote seems to suggest otherwise.
From the RotS novelization:
"Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene. "Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!" Dooku thought blankly, Kill me? [...] Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. [...] and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith."
Though it doesn't negate the other possibilities in combination with it, it pretty much confirms interference.
Reading beyond this section details Dooku's quick decline in ability against an enraged Anakin where Dooku admits that despite his skill, experience, knowledge of the Force, and even superior genes, the fight is lost. With that, Palpatine's interference would appear to have been the nail in Dooku's coffin. He would have likely beaten Anakin otherwise.
________
The Internet: Serious Business
reply
share
spencerdiaz
8 years ago
No it doesn't. In your previous comment you made that claim that it was not unreasonable for Palpatine to have manipulated Anakin with the Force. He had no need to. He only needed Anakin to make a choice.
Taken from Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith
"He understood why Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long. Skywalker was a natural... He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.
This Boy had the gift of fury.
And even now, he was holding himself back."
Sidious used circumstances that already existed to shape Anakin. Not the Force. Anakin had what he needed to defeat Dooku, Palpatine just told him to do it. A
grab "her" by the pussy if you will.
I agree with you for the most part, I'm just arguing semantics.
reply
share
Hydrilus
8 years ago
Well I can't argue with you there, so I just need to clarify what I meant by "manipulation" and "the Force" in this particular instance, which isn't that Palpatine moved Anakin's arms and legs for him, but that he affected Anakin's thought process.
"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"
The above quote is conveyed/implanted, by Palpatine, in that moment, as a thought/memory/feeling/etc directly into Anakin's mind, in a way that makes Anakin think he thought it up on his own, which then leads to his unstoppable offense. Yes, there are also already-present qualities and characteristics within Anakin that Palpatine takes advantage of without having to do anything, but in this fight, it's very clear the kind of nudge that Palpatine gives him.
I think inserting a thought into someone's mind that is not their own (obviously with the goal of a specific outcome resulting from it), constitutes manipulation with the Force.
________
The Internet: Serious Business
reply
share
spencerdiaz
8 years ago
This is where i disagree with you. Conveyed? Implanted? This isn't Inception. Anakin had been unconsciously using the dark side of the Force for years. Palpatine, a man he trusted, simply told him how to win. Told him he could win if he wanted to. Your insistence that Palpatine used the Force to compel him groundless.
Anakin was already losing his temper but still holding back. Anakin was already calling upon his rage but still holding back. Anakin had already desired to kill Count Dooku but was still holding back. He just needed a nudge. No Force powers required.
...Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.
...In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win.
All Palpatine did was give Anakin the permission to choose what he wanted which is the antithesis of what it means to be a Jedi. A Jedi acts in accordance of the will of the Force. Anakin choose to act on his own will. Is Palpatine manipulative? Absolutely. But he achieved all that he did within the mundane world. By legal methods and basic psychology.
One of the major themes of Star Wars has always been choice.
Make a Jedi fall, one cannot; beyond even Lord Sidious, this is. Chose this, Skywalker did.
Luke, in the very same postion chose a different path.
reply
share
Hydrilus
8 years ago
What to make of this then?
"Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene. "Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!" Dooku thought blankly, Kill me? [...] Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. [...] and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith."
It's right there in the first sentence. So, did Dooku imagine it?
________
The Internet: Serious Business
reply
share
spencerdiaz
8 years ago
Imagine what? My dude. You said he used the Force to coerce Anakin. He didn't. That's all.
reply
share
Hydrilus
8 years ago
I must really be missing something here lol
Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.
In what way, other than through the Force, would this intervention occur?
________
The Internet: Serious Business
reply
share
spencerdiaz
8 years ago
You are.
Through opening his mouth.
For example, let's say we're at a bar and you the sexiest woman alive looking at you but you don't go talk to here. Then your friend, let's call him Palpatine, whispers in your ear she wants to f<ck in the bathroom and you make your move.
That in a nutshell is what happened. Anakin hesitated against his own instinct and desires and Palpatine was like, "hey bro just do it."
You seem to think that Palpatine's only means of intervention was through use of the Force...
You're also missing the larger themes at work. Anakin had to choose to kill Count Dooku. Just like he had to choose to become Darth Vader. Kill children. Choke his wife. The ultimate irony. He feared for Padme's life only to end up destroying it. His own decisions led him to that end.
reply
share
Hydrilus
8 years ago
Ugh, I see my mistake now, and I feel totally stupid for being blind to it lol. I wish you'd just simply pointed out to me that I was confusing dialogue wrapped in quotes
"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!"
(i.e. spoken out loud) for being the same as
Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!
being italicized (i.e. an inner thought, not spoken out loud)
I think I was making this mistake because in the movie, this obviously never happens this way, so I was just assuming (and ignoring the punctuation) that it must have been communicated through the Force (and sensed/heard by Dooku since we're reading from his pov).
Oi...why'd you let this go on so long...
________
The Internet: Serious Business
reply
share