The Russians did do all the dirty work for us. Even after d Day most of the German troops were still tied up on the eastern front. And even George marshal admitted that if it hadn't been for the eastern front the western allies would proudly have needed twice as many soldiers to liberate Western Europe.
shareThe Red Army did engage and destroy most of the German Army. That's never been in dispute among anyone with more than a passing familiarity with the entire war.
Most is not sll and while the Soviets did much of the heavy lifting against German ground forces, Germany's air force, navy, and industry were destroyed almost entirely due to Western efforts.
I have it on good authority that Russia has it's own movie industry. I also have it on good authority that the US was conducting, supporting & supplying another war effort on the other side of the world that was very nearly as big as the one in Europe...
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
Yes it was never in dispute the USSR took the brunt of the Axis armies and it was very important in defeating the Axis powers. The same way China and southeastern Asia took the brunt of Japan's armies.
But let's not forget the USSR was allied with Germany and it invaded Poland with Germany, massacred thousands of Polish officers, invaded Finland and conquered Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. IT didn't join the Allies until Germany invaded USSR. And that the USSR ended up taking control of Eastern Europe and forcing them to become satellite countries after the war was over.
Me fail English? But, that's unpossible.
http://www.store.fredjung.com
Great point on the USSR allying themselves (or signing a non aggression pact) with the nazis. I don't think too many people felt sorry from them when Germany turned on them. I think it also led to the distrust of the Soviet Union. What would be interesting is if the allies and the USSR had gotten into a war after Berlin fell over what was left of Euorpe. I remember my grandfather told me a long time ago there was sentiment that while we were there already, to take on the soviets, but most people just were sick of the war and wanted it over. I don't know how true this was, as I wasn't alive. But it would have made a hell of a "what if" scenario. My history teacher in high school told us that near the final year of the war, Germany made a proposal to the west, to unite against the Soviets.
shareEither the NY Times or the Washington Post's lead paragraph under the Germany attacks Russia headline started "Like two primordial beasts rising from a swamp..."
According to William Manchester in his book "The Glory & the Dream: A Narrative History of America 1933-1973", most Americans both in and out of government hoped what Stalin hoped for the West in 1940, that both armies would simply beat each other to death. I tend to share that opinion.
Without the A-bomb, I have little doubt that Stalin would have carried out his plan to carry the war on into France and Italy. I've read that Churchill wanted to continue the war against the Soviet Union because of its actions against Poland and the East, but Truman and Ike would have none of it. No doubt it would have led to WW3 either then or later.
I think the allies versus the Soviets would make for one hell of s movie or series or book. Idk if we could have done what Germany couldn't do. Probably my guess would be we could reclaim Europe but probably get bogged down with another Russian winter. I agree the A bomb made the Soviets think twice about it, and I think everyone was tired of war too. But it's a great what if to debate.
shareI have little doubt that Stalin would have carried out his plan to carry the war on into France and Italy.
I've always believed that if given the chance, the Soviet Union would have overrun all of Europe. The western allies were instrumental in preventing that. I think that nowadays the Germans are glad the soviets did not overrun all of Germany.
shareThat's true. 75% of the German forces in Europe were killed or captured by the Russians. But it was a massive effort by the entire allies. No one country can claim credit for wining the war. Yes Russia took the brunt of the fighting but they also had massive logistical and supply help from the West.
shareI don't think we in the west (and by we, I mean historians both amateur and professional) have much of a problem admitting it was the Russians that wrecked the German Army. There is actually little doubt of that. 80% or so of German army casualties were on the Eastern front. The Red Army ground up the Germans, and made DDay much easier for us.
There does seem to be a belief (at least on message boards) that the Russians could have won by themselves. That the 20% of casualties the western allies caused were insignificant. The western allies also destroyed the German Navy, and eventually, more than half of the German Air Force. The Russians would have had a much more difficult time winning if they had to face the entire German army and air force. The US also provided a significant percentage of Russian logistical assets (trucks and trains), without which the Russians would have had a very difficult time moving their army and supplying it. Its entirely possible that the war in the east would have ended in stalemate without the western allies.
In defence of the Western Allies, at least they were actually liberating countries.
Welcome back.
Regarding the concept of liberating, my stepfather (a GI in Europe) once described his postwar adventures of "liberating" a German vehicle and going for a joy ride.
Entropy ain't what it used to be.
ta chuck.
I don't recall the Western Allies liberating Germany. Your stepfather an Ivan perhaps?
His division was sometimes assigned to First Army, sometimes to Third Army. It numbered in the 70s. I don't know exactly where he was, but I know he injured a knee skiing post-war, suggesting Southern Germany.
You know the relevant history very well, and surely well enough to know the Western armies over-ran more of Germany than the Soviets did.
Entropy ain't what it used to be.
Since when did we liberate Germany? I thought we attacked it, occupied it and treated all its citizens as enemy aliens for the next two or three years.
shareThe liberator is defined by:
1. The winning side, as they write history.
2. The Americans, as we re-write history.
3. Me.
In any case, the term "liberate" was commonly used or misused at the time. I told my stepfather that he and his buddies stole that German car, but he said no, they liberated it.
Entropy ain't what it used to be.
A more logical explanation is that your stepfather was liberating the car from the evil Germans in much the same way as he had liberated Western Europe from the aforementioned Germans. iirc an awful lot was actually liberated from Germany.
shareSweet! I thought my great-uncle died in '44 but it turns out he's alive. I'll have to call him.
Wait... He's dead.
Just because Russia lost more, doesn't take away the losses on the western side. It's not a dick measuring contest.
Blechley won the war. British secret service won the war. After all it made for a much easier war for frantic Joe to know where and what the Germans were doing throughout the whole of the eastern campaign....
It's like playing chess with your opponent telling you what are going to be his next three moves all the time.