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What's really ironic is that real life Neo Nazis use imagery of Norton's character and images from the movie in their propaganda.
It's like gangsters who idolize Tony Montana. Did they not watch the movie? Norton's character even realized he was a trashbag, and Montana wound up this soulless shell with all the money and drugs, but nothing really *valuable* (I maintain giving him a cool shootout at the end was a mistake which does somewhat mitigate or counteract the effect of the rest of the ending, showing him as the pathetic piss-pot he became).
shareThat's different though. Gangsters, or those who fake the appearance of being gangsters, idolize Montana's lifestyle AND the fact that he went out with a bang. So there's no aspect of Tony life that they're leaving out. In American History X, Neo Nazi ideologists leave out the fact that Norton's character moves away from White Supremacy and seeks redemption.
shareThat's true. But, that's why I argue that De Palma should have not done it. He should have had Tony ruin his life, his family's lives, his friends' lives, and crawl back to his palatial manor, drenched in self-pity. The assassins creep in, Tony is having a pathetic, babyish tantrum on the floor, doing coke, his brain fried, his body weak, everything he cared about or that is really worthwhile: gone. The assassins enter, he sees them, but he's too pathetic to do anything. He takes a swing, misses, pulls a gun, wets his pants, and they uzi him into hamburger. Pan across his "wealth", all the meaningless material BS, and end it on that "The World is Yours" thing. Credits.
It would have sent a stronger message about the true value of this bum instead of giving him "Say, 'Hello,' to my little friend!" and making him look cool one last time.
I think DePalma was more in love with the idea of updating the original movie in a grittier manner. I also think the original did a better job of achieving empathy for the main character portrayed by Paul Muni whereas Pacino's portrayal was just a non-stop propulsion of male ejaculation up to him getting killed.
shareYou're probably right. De Palma did put that messaging in there, though, so I think it was on his mind. But, yes, his top priority seemed to be the carnage.
Still a great movie, though.
(And kudos on that visceral and accurate description of Pacino-Scarface!)
I agree with your take, and it would have elevated the whole movie to a realistic gangster epic. But I also agree with BourbonKing that Tony was meant as "just a non-stop propulsion of male ejaculation up to him getting killed".
So, if I were directing it, I would have preferred your writing. But DePalma preferred what Stone wrote, because he cared more about an over the top, cartoonish male idol and didn't care about a powerful message.
Delving deeper, if you think about it most male idols are similarly constructed: James Bond, Captain Kirk, Han Solo, John McClane, Ash, Blondie, whatever-their story arch never fronts them with a powerful moral message for us to learn: it's only about them fighting the enemy and winning, good or bad you already know they are your hero and you just want to see how they will come out on top.
What you say makes sense. It's a choice of style and messaging and what should go where. Who knows? Maybe if I were writing the script and De Palma made that movie, maybe people like us would be sitting here talking about how it was a bit of a heavy-handed Oliver Stone/ Michael Moore propaganda piece - entertaining, but kind of a soapbox cudgel.
And, in case it matters, I do really like Scarface and think it's a good movie, I just wish that ending was more in-line with the messaging of the movie (which does have the warnings about greed and selfishness, even if undermined by a boss action scene).
I agree with your general conclusion that a lot of or most male heroes are just anthropomorphic personifications of testosterone, but a couple on that list did actual get confronted with their flaws. Captain Kirk does face down aging, responsibility (especially regarding family), and a no-win scenario in Wrath of Khan, and Han Solo does go from space cowboy to friend and ally.
This paucity of differentiated male role models was the best reason I ever heard for why Doctor Who should have stayed a man. The Doctor was the one male hero who consistently solved problems with intellect, nonviolence, and so forth. I think, in general, to complain because a reincarnating, shapeshifting alien just shapeshifted into a female form is maybe strange, but when somebody presented the male role model as something other than violent - that was a good argument. (I'm not commenting on the poor writing on the new series, either - I've heard it's bad, and bad (and good) writing knows no gender).
"Neo Nazi ideologists leave out the fact that Norton's character moves away from White Supremacy and seeks redemption."
But he doesn't really have a good reason for moving away, and redemption from what? He was right the ENTIRE time. The movie is literally packed with so much unprovoked black on white violence, they had to cut some out.
Watch the movie again. It shows his character coming to terms with the root of his initial belief in White Supremacy and that it was rooted in his abusive upbringing. He also becomes disillusioned with the movement when he sees that there's no actual brotherhood with those he associated with, especially in the prison system.
shareBut that doesn't mean anything he believed about POC was wrong. In fact, they prove him right every step of the way.
Oh, and it wasn't 'due to an abusive upbringing'. It was due to the fact his father was murdered by POC for trying to put out a fire in their neighborhood.
Pretty embarrassing that you had to make a new account just to post these statements rather than using your regular one . . .cowardly even.
shareAlmost as embarrassing as having to resort to a personal attack like the one you just levied as opposed to being able to address anything I've said.
Oof.
Why address anything you've said? Are you going to change your mind?
shareSure, you present statistics that say blacks don't commit any more crime per capita than any other demographic. Is there any amount of crime they could commit that would convince you that they might deserve a sliver of discrimination or contempt? What would change YOUR mind?
shareNo. I know that blacks commit more crime. Guess what, poor white people commit more crime than middle class whites. Poverty creates crime. Black people are born into a very different world than white people are and when you are treated like shit you believe you are shit. It’s pointless to tell you these things because you have the knowledge but not the empathy to understand it. So I know I’m wasting my time.
What would change my mind about what? I change my mind on a daily basis, I have no reason to hold onto any ideals for the sake of being ‘right’ or my pride because I’m proud of being someone who can learn, grow and become a better person based on the things I learn and experience.
So a few hundred years of oppression and racism made literally ALL of the difference while 70,000 years of evolutionary divergence made absolutely none? Nonsense. I wouldn't dispute that poverty is *A* factor but to discount biology when we've been diverging in drastically different environments for 1/3 the time modern humans have existed is just intellectual dishonesty.
sharePoverty is a factor, not the only factor but don’t be so quick to dismiss it. Black poverty has not been comparable to white poverty. When slavery was ended, these now free people had NOTHING. Not ‘nothing’ like I grew up in a trailer and wore hand me downs, nothing as in no housing and no way to get housing, no jobs except to continue working slave labor for slave wages, no education or hope of getting access to higher education, they couldn’t buy land to grow their own crops. Even if they were allowed to buy land and property . . .what are they going to buy it with? Their slave wages? How is someone going to crawl out of that hole? I’m really asking because it is remarkable that they have gotten as far as they have coming from that. Even in a perfect world with no racism, it’s going to take about 10 generations to get ANYWHERE.
With so few options it’s no mystery that you turn to crime, I’d like to think that I would be more noble than that, that I have better morals, but it doesn’t come down to that, you are reduced to survival mode. Even if you decide not to commit crime, people (and law enforcement) treat you as though you are a criminal because so many people who look like you are criminals, you are left with a choice, either be a criminal and benefit where you can with what you can take from the world or stay on the straight and narrow and be treated as though that’s what you already DO?
So to minimize that kind of poverty is really oblivious to the actual struggle and hopelessness of the issue.
Again, I never said poverty isn't a factor but it can't explain the massive disparity in crime. Black males 18-35 are less than 4% of the population yet commit as much murder as the other 96%
shareClearly this dude is totally uneducated and not looking to change that...you are wasting your time. He is much more interested in ignoring facts and making up numbers than learning anything....
sharegangsters watch gangsters and think its good and cool to be ruthless like that. most normal people would watch americanhistoryx and think its a bad thing how he was...
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Its a movie bro...thats the whole point. to show how one bad experience with someone doesnt mean a whole race is bad.
which republican racists sock account are you?
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yes its a fact whites commit more crimes against whits, blacks against blacks, asians against asian. try and use your big brain to figure out why?now factor in poverty.
how many people earring 60k a year are going break and enters, car jacking or muggings?
again use your brain and try and figure this one out champ. it really isnt hard
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"Especially when poverty or lack thereof seems to have little to no impact within black communities themselves."
you keep face planting and self owning. It does. again show me all the rich and middle class black people committing crimes vs whites? if like you right wingers push that its a racial/cultural thing it shouldn't matter? black people regardless of socioeconomic class should be committing more crimes.
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"the well-known racial and ethnic disparities in the criminal justice system."
the entire article is about how black people are being charged and incarcerated more than white people even factoring in wealth"
Your own article literally proves my point. systemic racism is still a problem.
I love when right wingers dont read their own "sources"
https://www.businessinsider.com/judge-jen-boyd-black-teen-prison-2013-12
Anyone who tells me there is no racism in the system I give them this. The same judge who gave a white no jail time after a drunk binge killing 4 people injuring multiple other people. Gave a black kid a ten year sentence because when he punched a kid he fell and the concrete hitting his head killed him.
this is without even going into the way policing is targeting black people.
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yes I read it. theres nothing about cultural or racial tendencies towards being criminals. the article as I quoted even ends with "the well-known racial and ethnic disparities in the criminal justice system." its clearly taking about systemic issues in the justice system
Again. Another right winger. posting an article they either did not read or did not understand.
I haven't been on here long so im not sure who has been banned in the past. but I wonder which former racist right winger you were that got banned
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lol so now its a conspiracy. I knew you were on the edge of that I made sure to put out just enough rope for you to do it yourself :)
LOL now its reading between the researchers lines? go away you sad racist. you are a horrible person. where's moderators when we need them
HAHAHAH religion in science? the commonly spoken words of the ignorant lowely educated person
yet again more self owning from the guys own source!!
" He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade."
meaning they arent found and he has no proof of them. meaning so far his opinion is just that. an opinion based on faith no facts.
yet again you and your source is feelings an opinion based. why are you so scientifically illiterate?
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lol when people dont buy your conspiracy nonsense call them a shill. the tin foil hattery is strong with this one
"Well gee let's, white people build space shuttles, black people build mud huts. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to put 2 and 2 together."
haha when a racist doesnt realize Africa isnt just mud huts. and that some African countries have space programs.and that a rocket surgeon isnt a thing. haha look t the smart white man here. wow
enjoy your life you racist
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no an actual racist which you re. enjoy your bitter judgemental life.
wow created an account just to come to the americanhistoryx board and be a racist. what does that say about your life?
also you didn't know some African countries have space programs? the ignorance is astounding
"Well gee let's, white people build space shuttles, black people build mud huts. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to put 2 and 2 together"
"how could you call me a racist?!?"
you are the results oflow education and a low iq
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yes Nigeria, Ethiopia, Ghana, Rwanda Kenya, dont have with space programs. you will have to contact their governments and tell them they didn't launch satellites. of course launching a satellite is no feat at all compared to producing a wheel.
oh right so only black people you determine arent smart arent. I get it.
please seek help escape your racist life.
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Yes. That's the way most people or groups do things. Copy someone's art and make it their own. Not unusual at all. Very normal.
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