Why were the muses black?
Is it because of the stereotype that blacks are naturally good at singing? That they are the only ones who can possess "soul"? Because the ancient Grecians were white.
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MovieChat Forums > Hercules (1997) Discussion > Why were the muses black?
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Actually no, Ancient Greeks had a darker toned skin.
shareActually no, Ancient Greeks had a darker toned skin.
That's true. Originally, Greeks were born in Asia and went to Europe. share
They were Mediterranean people so their skin tones ranged from olive skin to white skin. The men were typically outside so their skin was more tanned. Women had lighter skin tones because they stayed indoors. There are artworks from that time that depict white skinned Ancient Greeks. But their skin tones were most likely not that different from modern day Greeks.
shareI think it was the gospel/soul singer thing. The voice actresses were black, also.
myspace.com/RedFlamez
Speaking of soulful, "Why deny it, uh-oh?" was probably the most soulful delivery of a sung lyric ever.
"You're from the 60s! Peace love dope! Back, back to the 60s! No place for you in the future!"
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Ancient Greeks and Romans (and modern Greeks and Italians) are white/Caucasian by race. This does not mean that "white" people can't have olive or tan skin, just like a "black" person does not have to have dark brown skin.
I don't know where this ridiculous idea that only Anglo-Saxons are white came from, since I hope people realize that all ethnically European people are "white" and only a very small portion of that population is Anglo-Saxon (mainly in the British Isles but not Ireland).
(Please note I said "ethnically," meaning of an indigenous European ethnicity, not the poeple who are citizens of European countries but ethnically from another part of the globe. Those people are European by nationality.)
Blue Moonlight you're an ignorant racist ass!!
You should be kicked off IMDB for saying such hateful nonsense like that !
What was racist or hateful in my post? That there are white people who are not Anglo-Saxon (such as the Slavs or Scandinavians)? Or that the Greeks are Caucasian?
Perhaps you need help with definitions.
"racism - The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."
I in no way said any race is superior to any other, since I do not believe that to be true. Besides, you don't even know what "race" I am or if I am multiracial.
I was replying to sameel3 who said:
the Ancient Greeks were most definately NOT white. They were a darker tanned skin tone, and probably possessed features similar to a caucasian male.
Had he/she said that the Chinese are definitely not Asian, I would have pointed out the error of that statement too.
If anyone here is ignorant, it is you for accusing me of racism and taking offense at basic anthropology. share
Hmm, I just looked at some of your other posts. Besides the fact that you only seem to post argumentative comments on any topic even vaguely related to race, I noticed you said (quite forcefully on the Antonio Banderas board) the same thing I did:
LOOKS DON'T TELL ALL OF ONES RACIAL MAKEUP!
I said earlier:
This does not mean that "white" people can't have olive or tan skin, just like a "black" person does not have to have dark brown skin.
Common conclusion: race is not defined by looks.
If you are offended by the words "white" and "black" I apologize, but you see, where I live the Americans of African origin refer to themselves as black and Americans of European origin call themselves white and the words are accepted as politically correct. If there are other more politically correct words, let me know. share
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Why do people insist on ignoring dictionaries?
from dictionary.com
"racism: The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."
That is the official definition of racism.
Now stop accusing me of nonsense. I did not say any race is better in any way than any other race.
There are only HUNDREDS of ethnicities under the socially constructed grouping of "white" (or "black"), which are just as different from one another, as they are to members of ethnicities classed under different socially constructed "races".
The only "scientific reality" is that all human beings share 99% of the same DNA. Therefore, ethnicities are also a socially constructed grouping system. And many of today's ethnicities are mixtures of two or more individual ethnicities that have assimilated in the past.
The only "fact" is that all are human; how you take it from there is your own opinion. And if you respect all races/ethnicities/nationalities/whatever-you-call-them as equal, worthy, and valuable interpretations of being human, what does it matter if you call it "race" or "ethnicity" or "lala-ness."
If I actually had any "damn racially motivated stratification system" I would say that children of mixed races are biracial or multiracial, which is a beautiful thing.
I don't want to argue with you, so if we are both in agreement that equal respect should be given to all people whatever their heritage(s), I would like to end this thread.
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Alright, if you find the term race so offensive, I apologize for having used it. A word is only as offensive as you want to make it, and you evidently give it a different meaning and connotation than I do. I see it only as a group of ethnicities who are related either by geography or traditions/customs. If that offends you, again, I'm sorry. There is no need to label someone as having a "negative affliction" because of a misunderstanding, and there is no need to shout (caps).
Again, I quote from dictionary.com
race:
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
You can argue all you want that ethnicities are valid and races are not, and nationality is whatever, but I have no desire to get into that discussion regardless of whether I agree with you or not.
I only have to disagree that the Europeans invented the term or idea of race. The ancient Egyptians divided the human population into four races: Egyptians themselves, the Asiatics, the Libyans, and the Ethiopians. "Race" and all its baggage has been around for much longer than the 18th and 19th centuries and is not a European invention.
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i can't see the whole argument since all of the responses have been deleted, but it sounds like you were just arguing that race is a culturally constructed idea (which it completely is, by the way). I didn't see anything like racism in your posts. for example, my best friend and I both consider ourselves Latina, since she's from the dominican and I'm from south america (Columbia). However, she's also black, and society basically considers her "black" even though she identifies more with "Latinas". race is culturally constructed.
shareHi Elysedc, thanks for your reply. I nearly forgot about this thread...Looking back on it I really regret replying because it seems the original poster was a troll looking to stir something up. But once someone replies I hate deleting my messages so here they are still.
From what I can remember the original poster said something along the lines of "ancient Greeks and Romans were not 'white' they were 'tan'" and "only blond, blue-eyed people are 'white.'"
Don't know if that helps with the continuity, but the whole discussion went silly fast. I wonder how old it needs to get before IMDb gets rid of the thread.
I agree. I'm half Italian, and my mom's side of the family all have darker olive skin. When they go in the sun, they get quite tanned. It's natural for many people of Mediterranean ancestry.
sharebecause this film, like some of the greatest works of literature of the modernist period, has a sort of intertextuality. by having black soul singers as muses, a new facet and style is brought in, with which the viewer can empathise and by which he/she can be entertained.
its good stuff. now stop being ignorant.
The ghost of electricty howls in the bones in her face.
I think the muses were black Gospel singers, because Menken wanted to use a similar "narrating chorus" to the one he used in "Little Shop of Horrors".
The muses are kind of based on them.
Yeah, otherwise the alternative would have been the peppy singing reminiscent of The Andrews Sisters from the 40's and 50's.
Though I did think the Muses' vocal stylings were a nice attempt to return to the 'Little Shop' realm, though 'Little Shop' was a little catchier (still love Ashman's lyrical stylings).
It's me, your lovable dictator! Uh-oh. -Bender, Futurama
goodkarma2 is correct. It's definitely an homage to Alan Menken's narrative trio of Gospel singers in Little Shop of Horrors. I watched Horrors about two weeks ago and it dawned on me today as I was listening to the Hercules soundtrack that that's what he was going for.
It's not about some projective stereotype. It's about style and they definitely add a brilliant aspect to this film.
"after silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - a.h.
i think that they based the muses on the stereotype (and i don't mean this word in the negative sense) of african american gospel singers in churches who sing well. it does not mean that they're saying that african americans "are the ONLY ones who can possess soul". Personally, i'm alright with the portrayal of the muse as african americans since they took so many other liberties with the rest of the mythology surrounding Hercules (they speak with american accents, hercules as hera's kid, etc.)
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