MovieChat Forums > G.I. Jane (1997) Discussion > THE PREMISE IS A CROCK !!!!!

THE PREMISE IS A CROCK !!!!!


DO NOT GET ME WRONG -- I LOVE AND ADMIRE WOMEN BUT NOT IN THE SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES....SOF - are the top 2-3% of troops in - shooting, running, swimming, strength, climbing, hand-to-hand, endurance, mental toughness/tactics, et al. They have typically been through other very hard training programs before - jump and/or ranger school and are honors grads. This top 2-3% is always -MALE.

Women do an excellent job in noncombat roles and have improved the military in admin, customer svs roles, etc. I am retired military and have seen the ways women have improved the DOD when I came back as a DOD contractor recently. The current problems are keeping women out of combat zone deployments for humane reasons - new babies, sick family, etc. The Amazons who enjoyed the Desert -OEF/OIF- deployments I actually came to admire.

I light sparred with a young lady E-4 who was the OIF womens' boxing champ. Despite my being +25 years her senior it quickly became apparent that when I could catch her I could drop her with ease - if I had wanted to. She had the mobility - I the + 120 lb weight advantage. I admired her game attitude though - in the ring and in the field with an M-4 escorting contractors. As greatly as I admired the girl she was still not an SF candidate.

Other countries have tried to use women in SOF roles before -- it did not work for: the Brits, Isreal, or USSR. I know they have used some women in sniper-USSR WW II - and security - Isreal; but SF is a whole other kettle of fish. It is like the NFL - women can play football but they cannot compete with the best of the best males physically and win. Infantry in history - yes -- SF - no.

As far as helping her career - SOF is generally a career grave yard - at least in years past. Most men in SOF are busy training, or on missions, with the fleet or in the air. They are not doing the sort of bs programs that get command notice. SOF is on a need to know basis so SOF is "out of sight and out of mind." Many excellent SF troops retire at Major vs Lt Col or Bird- O-6 - 1-2 grades/ranks behind the pencil pushers.

It is still unlawful for women to be in direct combat MOSs in the US. In SOF small unit operations, the weakest link can get an entire unit killed - no is left behind. The men of SOF must be able to carry a wounded 220 lb buddy on their back - both in full 80 lbs of gear for miles if necessary. Could Demi do that even with all her spa hours ???? Be realistic. Who on this board is another SOF vet ???

Demi whipping the Chief is also a crock. I was beating female black belts in Dojo sparring in my teens as a Yellow belt. I was not the best male in the Dojo either- at that point. This is why sports are generally gender segregated - even in marksmanship. Women have actually WON NRA Open competitions but it is as rare as a space shuttle disaster.

SOF is in all three major branches USN, USA, and USAF as well as in the USMC which is a corp of the Navy - recon. I like ladies and am married to a former NOW local officer; but most of the lady posters are civilians with very little knowledge of the military. You may have seen a film or had an uncle in the service but I hope you will not argue that that confers expertise upon you.

There is also the MEO factor. Female military members are trained to make a bee line for MEO, if they dislike a male's jokes or his passing on a naughty e-mail with a Jay Leno joke on it. The MEO = the military EEOC. Men have lost their military careers over off color jokes, much less the conduct exhibited in this film. To allow such conduct to occur in your command would end careers up to the admiral/flag ranks. I have seen this happen in the military and law enforcement.

In the real world the Chief would have been court martialed for conduct unbecoming an NCO, abuse of authority, and aggrevated sexual battery. He would then spend years in Portsmouth or Charleston Brig.

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Any takers ????????

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I've never been in the military and I'm just an average joe from the UK but I fully agree with you. I don't know the logistics behind it but a womans physical frame is incapable of doing some of the things I can do in the gym, never mind humping a pack full of sh!t up a large hill.

In tests of strength a woman against a man is like a teenage boy against a man they may be quick and fast but one good hit and it's over that's tragic and sad but a total fact. It's why most womens martial arts are designed for a quick strike to the nut or nerve point and then flee, never jab, cross, hook.

My girlfriend had a hard time fighting off one of my mates when he's pinning her down and the guys stick thin. We just have more muscle to the frame an stronger muscle at that.

It really comes down to is there a point? I find a lot of women do stuff simply to prove a point.
Still it's a fun concept for a film though and I guess you take it with a pinch of salt.

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Info - you are reality based -- the film, obviously not. The problem - some people think it is...........

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WELL- this thread seems to be studiously ignored......

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GENERIC - I do not think they want reality to replace the ANYTHING YOU CAN DO I CAN DO BETTER --except of course for that awful sexist society.........

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yessireee........

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Agreed. Not to mention the movie sucks as well.

" How 'bout that dipper, Bob?"
ONE EYED JACKS, 1961.

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Women shouldn't be in the SF unless they are doing a mission to infiltrate my kitchen and/or bedroom.

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I agree in a sense. Although I have known women who an copmete on a level with men. I was on a coed soccer team in high school and some of the girls were better than a lot of the guys.

Same thing we do every night try to take over the world

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Most people on this thread, and many commenting on the film in general, seem to be missing the point that this film, and associated feminist arguments, are trying to make. People should be judged on their qualities and traits alone rather than simply their gender, or whatever qualities and traits their gender implies. It is NOT logical to say that most women cannot compete with most men on a physical level therefore women should not be aloud to partake in physical activities such as the armed forces or SOF. It IS logical to say that if a woman (OR MAN) cannot demonstrate the physical qualities and traits necessary for such things then they should not be aloud to partake in them, for reasons of political correctness or otherwise. The problem that male characters in the film have with Demi Moore's character is based on the former, flawed, categorical, backward logic: Women are generally not capable of joining the SOF, O'Neil is a woman, therefore she is not capable. If no woman has ever done such a thing, it does not mean that no woman can or ever will. The category of sex is simply too vast to base such assumptions on. It is similar as saying 'no man will ever connect with his child as well as its mother': there is biological basis for it, but it no categorical link involved such as in a true statement like 'no man can give birth'.
Therefore it is not unrealistic for O'Neil to cope with the training seen on-screen, for its is presented as being very unlikely, as it is in reality: that is why the premise is intriguing. Most films are based on unlikelihoods; a film presenting the likely events of general reality as exactly experienced in real life would be completely uninteresting. This is part of the reason the term and concept 'realism' is redundant.
O'Neil does not 'win' against the Master Chief in terms of a physical contest. She gets in a few good hits, but only has any real advantage at all once she has the morale backing of the rest of the trainess and demonstrates her adequacy by retaining her physical and mental strength: thus meaning Master Chief has no further reaosn to master her physically (which clearly he could, easily, if he really wanted to).

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All right, all right, I'll bite on this one.

What's the big deal with not allowing women into the SF's anyway? Couldn't there be at least a -chance- of a woman being strong/athletic/ enough to pass the tests? Yeah yeah, we're built differently, whatever, but who's to say there couldn't be some miracle speciman of a woman who could succeed? I mean, I've seen me some big women, and we're not talking fat.

Sure all the hype and drama of the movie helps to make it entertaining, but I think the real core point of the movie is that woman should have the option. Demi's character even says it
: Not that she would want the life that comes with passing her training. She just wants the right to choose it. Enough with the stereotypical BS, if a woman wants to try out and can succeed she should be let in.

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Didn't the senator lady do the right thing because she saved those military bases that would otherwise have been closed down?

Same thing we do every night try to take over the world

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The trouble with saying "women should be given the chance" is that you spend the money taking them on these very expensive courses for the infantry, artillery, armour, combat engineer and special forces roles etc, and what happens? The overwhelmingly vast majority of them fall out, assuming the standards are the same. OK, do those few extra soldiers make it worth it? Perhaps, but they're going to be nothing more than average-to-poor soldiers who would have better careers anyway in women's sports. Plus, you get headaches about logistics - gotta pack tampons and OB-GYNs with the 5.56 now - and you get headaches about intra-unit relationships, friction, etc. The latter point should be non-existent with professionalism but it is still a niggle.

Add all these up and it essentially constitutes a lot of headaches for very little gain.

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RIGHTO ZZ!

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I know this is old, but I wanted to say thanks for having the guts to wade in. So many people run their head when everyone is offering pure opinion, but when an intelligent, informed, confident person states fact that shuts down all the nonsense (as the OP observed) it gets real quiet. So, kudos to wading in and doing it without getting too snarky. ;-)

On to your comments... the "big deal" with a woman being in SF was addressed articulately in the OP. Perfectly. One only needs to reread his post to find out precisely why it's a big deal. Secondly, you're wrong, there simply is no chance, none, that a woman could get through the SF training regimen. It makes neat movie fodder, and we all munch the popcorn and yell "hoo-yah" when Demi growls and does one more push-up with her cut-off, wife-beater t-shirt (frankly, I growl too). In real life, it's just like the movie, a fantasy. Lastly and more importantly though, your comment suffices to explain exactly what the big deal is, if a woman did get through it would be a "miracle" so why institute it? Do we want to have an ob-gyn on staff, sensitivity training, and all the multitude of expensive extras needed for one woman? Why deal with all the problems when it's going to be a few miracle cases (if that)? Makes no sense.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Just so that I understand, is this the premise upon which you base your accusation? While your obvious (and vast) life experience is impressive, it would seem at leat arguably a good idea to keep in mind this is entertainment (albeit with a positive feminist twist). If we tear apart each movie on the basis you do, there would be no lawyer movies, doctor movies, or media that features a single mother as a main character. The only crock is your analysis.

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No cogent rebuttal attempts yet...

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So it seems that this film would be more realistic if a less elite branch of the military was used. That, however, is not the way of Hollywood. Everything must be amped up 10 fold in order for catharsis to ensue and money to be made. This film may be a "crock" but that is just the way the studios want it. Emotion is more important than accuracy. Controversy translates to asses in the seats. Obviously all of you saw the movie, which is all the studio heads care about. All of you are debating the topic, which is probably what Ridley Scott wanted. In any event, it is obvious that men are physically stronger than females. This is unnecessary to point out, and if a former Navy Seal says that he thinks women couldn't be part of this elite force, than I am inclined to believe him. But, why the women bashing?

" Women shouldn't be in the SF unless they are doing a mission to infiltrate my kitchen and/or bedroom."

It is completely unnecessary and offensive. Clearly women aren't as physically strong as men, but don't make such an *beep* statement because they are unable to to change the way they are born.

This film, while maybe a bit inaccurate, is great and raised questions and makes a person think, which is all any goo director or actor can hope for.

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I apologize, I meant good director, not "goo director." It was late, however, and JESUS CAMP took a lot out of me.

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"Plus, you get headaches about logistics - gotta pack tampons and OB-GYNs with the 5.56 now - and you get headaches about intra-unit relationships, friction, etc."

what is it about boys and tampons. if a woman is strong and puts their body under lots of strain, their periods stop anyway. also, have you never heard of the depo contraceptive injection? they stop your periods for like a year so its no problem, besides, tampons are pretty tiny/light and the guys carry lots of gear anyways so i doubt they would greatly increase the weightload.

also, there are relationship issues in units without women already. you guys just are pretty ignorant. there are plenty of women with "big frames" out there who i believe could just as easily do the job as men. jeeeeeeeeez

DREW SURMAN <3
UP THE SAINTS
www.saintsfc.co.uk

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"what is it about boys and tampons. if a woman is strong and puts their body under lots of strain, their periods stop anyway. also, have you never heard of the depo contraceptive injection? they stop your periods for like a year so its no problem, besides, tampons are pretty tiny/light and the guys carry lots of gear anyways so i doubt they would greatly increase the weightload."

As I believe I said, individually they're not big problems - but they do add up. And an OB/GYN attached to every infantry/armour/engineer/arty battalion is not very tiny/light, nor is his/her salary small - quite the opposite.

"also, there are relationship issues in units without women already."

And what, they're going to improve with full integration?

"you guys just are pretty ignorant. there are plenty of women with "big frames" out there who i believe could just as easily do the job as men. jeeeeeeeeez "

Show me them, and I'll show you Olympic athletes who'd earn 100x times in women's sports.

Your use of the word 'easily' is quite funny considering the extreme physical demands of even yer average infantry unit. Week-long patrols and fighting with 100 lbs+ of kit in 90F+ day and freezing night. This is not some game in which attractive blond-haired blue-eyed hunks dash around looking heroic with cool guns and smooth accents. Sorry, I think it's you that's pretty ignorant.

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Well put David. If women could compete with men physically they would be on men's teams in pro sports - they would be BILLION DOLLAR BABIES - just think of the revenues they would generate!!!

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if women are so weak that none of them could possibly get into a program like the seals, then what's the problem with making it co-ed? surely it wouldn't make a difference.

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An extreme minority probably could pass the standards - JUST pass them - and then it creates all the niggles I talked about earlier, for very little gain (i.e. mediocre infantry soldiers.)

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It would have been better if the movie was about her going through Air Assault school, since that can pretty harsh training but its still can be accomplished and women go through it all the time....but her joining the seals, rangers, SF, or what not thats just crazy!

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The whole premise is unreal - women in SOF has been tried in many places --- and FAILED. Girl push ups (and fewer of them) and stress cards only works if the terrorists or other enemy show the same consideration!

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Not to mention this just hurts morale. Any man who's served in a military could tell you this. I was in the Marine infantry and susbequently lateral moved into intelligence and had to work alongside women. Suddenly, gone were our discussions of women, drinking and just all stuff men do for fear of some kind of BS EO retaliation.
It sucks.

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SOF teams work as a unit - they are only as strong as their weakest teammate. Coed also changes the whole team dynamic.

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You people must have severe brain damage!

First of all, to her kicking that guys ass, it's skill not size that matters. Second, you completely missed the point of the movie. The point was that females deserve the OPTION because there are some females who can and would make it. Maybe Demi Moore could not have made it herself but that's what she gets paid to do... pretend! Also, you seemed to have missed the part where they were actually looking for someone they thought was qualified. She wasn't meant to be your average female in the first place. Just as they wouldn't choose the average male. I must admit that I have no idea how their selection process works but I'm sure as elite as they are they wouldn't just choose anyone to come to the training... male or female! I don't see the problem. I would not want to do that but if there are people who would like to do it then who the hell are you people to tell them NO? I guess I must have missed your qualifications and what you guys are stating aren't facts at all.

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SF teams work as a unit - they are only as strong as their weakest teammate. Coed also changes the whole team dynamic.

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Well put David. If women could compete with men physically they would be on men's teams in pro sports - they would be BILLION DOLLAR BABIES - just think of the revenues they would generate!!!

Yeah but that 0.001% of the male population that is good enough for pro sports teams and make $$$$ tend not to join the miltary either.

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First of all if your going to come on here screaming get your facts correct.

SF is in all three major branches USN, USA, and USAF as well as in the USMC which is a corp of the Navy - recon. I like ladies and am married to a former NOW local officer; but most of the lady posters are civilians with very little knowledge of the military. You may have seen a film or had an uncle in the service but I hope you will not argue that that confers expertise upon you.

There is only ONE SPECIAL FORCES and that is the Army's Green Berets. Their unit designation is Special Forces Group. All the rest SEALs, Rangers, Air Force PJs are Special Operations. Now which Group were you assigned to? I did time in Bad Toelz.

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No - the correct term for the others is SOF or special operations forces. I do not feel it IS ALWAYS necessary to get down to the gnats eyebrow on these distinctions. Were you RDF/SOF-9? If you do not know what that was - then you do not need to.

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So you were on a Rapid Deployment Force/Special Operations Force-9
Match
Set
Poseur
Other wise you would have mentioned a more specific unit such as Rangers, SEALs SF or some other Spec Ops unit. And if you were Delta you wouldn't be talking about it on an open board like this.

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WRONG and GFYS... YOU pose and I will ignore you....

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10th SFDAE from 1977 to 1980 and have the paperwork to back it up.

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Amen to that ZZ .... you can get: fake ribbons, papers, medals, awards, orders, DD 214s.... et al on the net........

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yeah????????

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Yep this is my real name. Not hiding behind an alias.
While I never claim to be a hero I have had the luck to have known some that were the REAL DEAL. One of which was just inducted to the SF Hall of Fame at Ft. Bragg.

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I got rid of ole ed the army cook and as for brains and balls you got neither....

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Actually I was an 84B2P with an 11B2P secondary but was also qualified as an 84C. Never was a cook.

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Do you even have any idea of what I said? or what exactly a DD-214 is?

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Pretty damn quick is what it meant when my platoon sergeant used it. There weren't a lot of computers around when I was in. But since he had no idea what an MOS designation was I doubt much of what he says. My response was simple and to the point as to what MOS's I was qualified in. Two of which no longer exist. This whole thing got started with the comment about a Special Operations Force/Rapid Deployment Force. I have mentioned that all you have to do is google my name to find out who I am, just spell Edd with two d's. I can also be found on Together we served, which is a Military site where everything that I claim can be challenged. If you think I am not who I claim please feel free to do so on this site.

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Never said that I was Rambo. As a matter of fact I have stated plainly that I am NOT a hero, but have had the honor to have served with some of them. MSG Joe Alderman who is now a member of the Special Forces Hall of Fame on Ft. Bragg was the senior instructor in the Jump School that I attended. My last duty station was with 10th SFD(A)E in Bad Toelz Germany from 1977 to 1980. I ran the photo section there. I also worked with the Aviation Development Test Activity at Ft. Rucker AL when the first prototypes of the Black Hawk were being tested, and worked for the main photo lab in Seoul Korea in 74 and 75 when they began finding tunnels under the DMZ that the North Koreans were digging. I am Airborne qualified and also served as a platoon RTO (Radio Telephone Operator)in a Line Infantry unit but that was way back in 72. I have done enough in my life that I don't need to inflate what I can easily and readily prove. My best friend did retire from 10th Group, he is the hero not me. Like you said I just took the photos, and now I write stories though not all of them are about the road some are autobiographical and others are Western themed. As for my truck driving the majority of what I do is over size loads which means that I am the one you hate to be behind since I am heavy and wide, which means that I am slow and take up a whole bunch of room. I don't need to demean others to make myself bigger, but I do get angry with those who claim to be something that they then refuse or are unable to verify.

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zz - I would hesitate to let anyone goad you to other sites. All sorts of problems could ensue - malware, stalking, requests to meet in person, illegal sites monitored by the feds, identity theft, porn sites ...you name it. You do not know if someone is who they say they are. I could obtain the name of some minor (big names are not so credible) - writer, athlete, soldier, et al... and use their name as a screen name and say 'google me.' All that info is at your fingers today.

There are also those who cruise chat rooms and message boards hoping to meet young persons. They make all sorts of claims - talent scout, casting director, war hero, film director, author... and may use the names of others who are legit... To add credibility you can google the names and places the shell person may have been.

Never give out personal data on the net - I really wonder about those who do; especially if they are world savvy and literate. Let us just say I know something in re: law and criminal justice. These are my personal policies learned - often vicariously - via hard experience..

If others do not approve - too bad.... PTSD can make tempers short with those who were not there but hunt for 'wannabes.' It reminds me of the guys always on the lookout 'for who was queer' ... up until they moved to San Francisco and began marching in 'Pride Parades.'

DISCLAIMER - the comments on this board are not referential to any individual living or dead but are offered for general information and entertainment use only.

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That is correct mr RDF/SOF-9.
I am not the one who claimed that all branches of the military have SF.

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while I pretty much agree with your inital post, I do think it makes a fun fictional premis for this movie. men and women ARE different and not equal at many things. that's just how it is. I thought it was a well done action flick - even if it is not 100% totally accurate to reality. It IS just fiction in the end anyway

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Fiction yes; but some people actually believe in such fiction and it becomes dangerous reality.

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zz - The way some people post - provocative, spin doctoring, not accurately reading what they claim to disclaim - then lead a trail of electronic bread crumbs literally to someone's door --- leads me to one of 2 conclusions.

Either they are who they say they are and are very foolish ...OR... they are wicked, deviously clever and an enemy of the person they present as challenging others (to 'google me'). I am not malicious but I cannot vouch for everyone on these boards.

There are rumors of trolls posting: threats in another's name, posting invitations to bizarre midnight drop-in parties at someone else's address, listing a parolee 1/2 house there... you name it. This is not a threat on my part but a word to the wise... what you post - you publish -- to the world at large.

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Who was it that started the thread by boasting of his own prowess against women?
Who was it who posted the comments about being able to beat Female Black belts while he was still a yellow belt?
Who was it who told us that all branches of the military have SF?
Who claimed to be a member of a fictitious unit that as he put it "If you don't know then you don't need to know," when his bonafides were questioned?
When challenged who attacked by calling others names.
I have posted my creds you have responded in the best of keyboard Rambo traditions. Thanks for the entertainment. It has been fun bringing out your true colors.

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I keep seeing my 'post ignored' pop up - it can only be one persistant troll-- I guess he got tired of taking pictures of muscle boys - I think I know who this actually is - he has gone by other handles and attacked people on other sites...an angry kid from Harlem when I checked him out.. lives with mom and she is in and out of Bellevue...so I understand where his anger comes from...he hates vets but shamfriends and then gets info to attack and assume identity...alfshn was it when we last clashed...???

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Wrong again. You seem to be projecting your qualities on others.

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There are numerous roles on SF team that a woman could fulfill.
Not being able to see because of outdated ideas of masculinity is actually a weakness, not a strength.

Woman can:

* Plan operations
* Infiltrate targets
* Act as snipers
* Gather intel
* Mark targets
* Attack and kill male combatants.

Every team member can fulfill every task perfectly, so why hold women to a non-existent standard?

Bad films are a crime against humanity.

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1. Women can do all of the above outside of SF.
2. The standards do in fact exist for SF.
3. Good faith attempts have been made worldwide to integrate females into SF - they failed.
4. The weakest physical link can get a unit killed.
5. Outmoded? I doubt you know anything about combat arms; so how would you know what is outmoded? Almost every corp in the military has at some time been called outmoded by people who do not know squat about the military - the USMC, ARMOR, infantry, SF, manned aircraft... were called outmoded until the next war showed that an 'outmoded force' is exactly what you need.


Not to change the subject , but are you ex-military?
I have dealt w/ SF operators and they are far more impressive in the movies than they are in real life. They mainly exist to perform the "dirty jobs" that require specialized skills and a uniform to be worn in case they are caught.
That way they won't be executed (usually) when things go wrong, unlike spies.

1) Really? What your source of information on this?
2) I'm aware of the standards used by the SF.
3) Which "good faith attempts" have these been?
4) Really? The weakest link in the chain command has killed far more SF's than team members. Hardly a valid argument.
5) No, I don't. Do you? Does anybody? Who knows what the future will hold
In 25 years, most things that people think will seem "quaint." In 50 years, they'll likely be proven wrong.


Bad films are a crime against humanity.

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We'll have to agree to disagree.
Come back on here in 25 years and we'll see who is correct.

Bad films are a crime against humanity.

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Too bad the guy deleted he liked the thread.

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The title is even silly as navy troops do not call themselves GIs typically.

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"Most people on this thread, and many commenting on the film in general, seem to be missing the point that this film, and associated feminist arguments, are trying to make. People should be judged on their qualities and traits alone rather than simply their gender, or whatever qualities and traits their gender implies. It is NOT logical to say that most women cannot compete with most men on a physical level therefore women should not be aloud to partake in physical activities such as the armed forces or SOF. It IS logical to say that if a woman (OR MAN) cannot demonstrate the physical qualities and traits necessary for such things then they should not be aloud to partake in them, for reasons of political correctness or otherwise. The problem that male characters in the film have with Demi Moore's character is based on the former, flawed, categorical, backward logic: Women are generally not capable of joining the SOF, O'Neil is a woman, therefore she is not capable. If no woman has ever done such a thing, it does not mean that no woman can or ever will. The category of sex is simply too vast to base such assumptions on. It is similar as saying 'no man will ever connect with his child as well as its mother': there is biological basis for it, but it no categorical link involved such as in a true statement like 'no man can give birth'.
Therefore it is not unrealistic for O'Neil to cope with the training seen on-screen, for its is presented as being very unlikely, as it is in reality: that is why the premise is intriguing. Most films are based on unlikelihoods; a film presenting the likely events of general reality as exactly experienced in real life would be completely uninteresting. This is part of the reason the term and concept 'realism' is redundant.
O'Neil does not 'win' against the Master Chief in terms of a physical contest. She gets in a few good hits, but only has any real advantage at all once she has the morale backing of the rest of the trainess and demonstrates her adequacy by retaining her physical and mental strength: thus meaning Master Chief has no further reaosn to master her physically (which clearly he could, easily, if he really wanted to)."


This is the most intelligent post I've seen on this entire thread.

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The only problem with your arguments, wolf, is that they are total bs and you seem to know nothing about military special operations!

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