shootout scene
man that shootout bit at the start was ridiculous. the british army would have wasted those IRA b4stards easy.
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MovieChat Forums > The Devil's Own (1997) Discussion > shootout scene
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it was disgusting, like the IRA could ever take the SAS out like that. The SAS would never let themselves be ambushed like that, the whole things ridiculous. No incident like that has ever happened in the history of the troubles, in modern times anyways.
sharePeople should read some history before typing. I am from Belfast and for the people saying there is no way the SAS would get shot up like that, here is some news sometimes they did. British soldiers aren't superhuman and neither are the Irish, just cos you hear of the SAS ambushing the IRA and not the other way around does not mean it didn't happen. If you beleive everything you see in the news you can't be saved. I can respect a couple of people on here who either live here or can make educated decisions. In mainland Britain you don't hear about what the British army, (the UVF, the UDA, the UFF etc.) do to the peace process. Maybe if the Irish occupy you and do exactly what was done too us to you, then you would understand. I am gonna stop now cos no matter what I say many will go away with the mistaken beleif that the British are better, that I am talking rubbish. Just for the people who spoke out with what they beleive about the superhuman SF soldiers.
"Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt."
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Sure the IRA took out soldiers. Quite literally. They got local women to take them out, lead them to an ambush and leave them to be spiked like a pig. Alternatively, they used a Barret Light .50 sniper rifle to pick off squaddies at over a mile in so called "snipers alleys". Just because people dont share your viewpoint doesnt mean they dont know what they are talking about. The original point was valid, the IRA never took on an army unit in a set piece battle as is shown in the film. This is not a sorry reflection on Irish people. It would simply have been daft to attempt. For one thing, in the scene depicted, the house would first off have been cut off from its environs preventing escape. IRA men cant walk through walls or fly any more than can others. So the Brad Pitt character simply could never have got away.
shareLOL.. and that is why the para's have cleaned up NoR Ire like nobodies business..... thats why its all peace and love today, cause they are so good.....
About the only way they can clean up is in a massacre such as Bloody Sunday...... Oh yea they kicked some friggin arse on that day!!!! Fight on for a free Ireland......
We are but dust and bones......
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what are you even using that slogan for fuzzy! do you even know one thing the IRA stands for????
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want to know what the definition of terrorist is? Someone who uses bombs and guns? Well hey, isn't that exactly what the British army do when going around the world invading countries, killing the natives and raping the women? Why aren't they being called terrorists? They've caused more terror to the people of the world than the IRA ever have or will. So what if the Irish have an army, almost all countries do, wouldn't have needed one if it weren't for the antics of the British.
TOTALY AGREE BROTHER PEACE!!
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FuzzyWuzzy, an odd definition of terrorist. Terrorists because every political act or goal they want to acheive has been won on the back of horrific violence. Nothing that in the history of Northern Ireland has been equalled by the British State.
And again you choose to go back centuries to try and justify the horrors commited by a few hundred Irishmen today. Has anyone tried to see how many people or what kind of people the IRA kill? People like Robert McCartney? Its something like a 60/40 split between security personnel and ordinary civilians killed by them. The IRA have also killed more people during the Troubles than anyone else. Not even the ever present bogie man the British Soldier has doen that!
Its pretty appalling logic and I hope you're not trying to tell us that the IRA is the legitimite army of the Irish Republic either!
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The fact you chose to end your statement with "lmao" shows how much attention we should pay to your ideas on the subject...
shareIts something like a 60/40 split between security personnel and ordinary civilians killed by them.
Lie. share
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I've never seen such blatant bs in my life, talk about art imitating life!
They just casually walk out the front door {which happens to be surrounded AND has air cover} and off into the woods, what a joke.
Pretty much like the IRA themselves.
What is really sad is that it took 9/11 to make the people who made whole-sale slaughter possible (funding and arms from US citizens) see sense.
Welcome to our world.
J1
It just wouldn't happen.. In all the years of troubles how many shoot-outs like that actually happened?
Bottom line is, the IRA are cowards who wouldn't dare get involved in a shoot-out.. Their tactic is to plant bombs in areas where innocent civillians will get hurt, then retire to a safe an' comfy distance where theres no chance of actually getting their blood-soaked hands dirty..
The IRA are not freedom-fighters fighting the oppressive Brit's, they are criminals and terrorists.. Even now, when there is a supposed 'peace-treaty', they've turned to crime just to get their kicks an' keep the coffers flowing in to fund their criminal lifestyles
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The IRA was NOT set up because people of Northern Ireland "couldn't take all the sh!t that was dished out to them by the British scummers". The IRA was formed decades ago before Northern Ireland even existed! The IRA was formed because some (some, definately not all) people in Ireland felt they wanted an independent state and not a state part of the United Kingdom. At this time Ireland was one whole country as part of the UK. After they held their uprising Northern Ireland was formed as part of a partitioned Ireland.
The IRA as shown in the film was a group that enjoyed a resurgence in popularity when Protestants in Northern Ireland started suppressing Catholics human rights too much and started rioting and forcing them from their homes. Later the IRA split into factions, the largest (and probably linked to the political party Sinn Fein) is the Provisional IRA. This terrorist group has killed more people in total and more civilians than any other group, legal or not within NI.
If one thing is sure its that its the paramilitary organisations that have done irrepairable damage to the country. As someone who lives in Northern Ireland (and for much of his life knew nothing but the regular shootings and bombings on TV) I know this for sure. Whole sections of the country now grow up expecting violence as reprisals for lack of political action.
And its certainly clear that hatred and disgust for other religions by Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland is more harmful than any neglectful governing by the Westminister Parliament.
Now, as for the original post, yes, the scene does seem a little set up. In the usual Hollywood vein, the "heros" of the day (the IRA) are crack shots and the bumbling Brits are all to happy to accept as many bullets to the torso as possible :) As silly as it is, its been done before in Hollywood and would seem to be a staple of films such as this.
You dont really know your history DO YOU!!!!!
You sit there on your big fat a$ss telling everyone how bad the IRA is and how you are such a victim...
Did you grow up in any of the troubled area's?
Did you ever repeatedly witness the shamefull deeds of your fellow countrymen?
Did you lie in your bed at night listening to gun fire and explodions?
I THINK NOT.........
Yet your lack of Irish history and your cussion up bringing in an area which probably seen no activities gives you no right to to tell anyone what is happening in NI today
wise up!!!
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macara is obviously some terrorist twat.
But that aside, ye the shootout scene made me cringe like hell. As if the SAS men would be such crappy shots and go in that building alone. Speed Aggression and Surprise? He was wondering in that building without a clue. Also at that soldier lowering his rifle and getting shot. The film makers obviuosly have no idea of armed forces training. Laughed my ass off at that stereotypical English badguy (so called SAS agent).
Stay at home homeaddress. You don't know what you're talking about. Countless referendums have shown that the majority of people in Northen Ireland want to remain British - because they are Ulstermen, from Protestent Scotland originally, not Catholic Irish. But the IRA aren't interested in democracy, they're more interested in several hundred year old feuds and uniting an Ireland that no longer exists. It makes as much sense as Native Americans declaring everyone else in the USA an invader and trying to oust the Federal government by bombing the public. The British Army went into Northern Ireland in the recent troubles (last 30 years) to PROTECT the Catholics from equally loony Loyalist thugs. Of course, that didn't help an inflamed situation. The IRA have become nothing more than a Mafia - dealing drugs, robbing banks, and murdering innocents. A complicated situation has, as ever, been reduced to pap by Tinseltown.
As for the shootout at the begining, that has to be one of the most unfeasible things ever put on celluloid (apart from Brads acrobatic arms dealer shootout). Three terrorists take out half a dozen RUC men and "half the British Army" complete with helicopter support, and two nip off into the mysteriously and conveniently placed forest. Then, as if that wasn't ridiculous enough, somehow public enemy number one gets out of the country, without even wearing a disguise, and turns up at US customs.
But even worse than trying to make murdering terrorists look glamorous and acting as a recruiting sergeant for American IRA fund-raisers, the biggest crime of this movie is it's boring, unentertaining, cliched tripe.
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Again Homeaddress you display utter and contemptable ignorance.
Northern Ireland doesn't belong to a few hundred paramilitaries. As has been stated clearly its British territory and its fate will ultimately be decided by its own people.
You crow again and again about British settlers hundreds of years ago affecting the population of today. So what? I have British and Irish blood in my family, I don't see how it should affect the way I live my life today. History certainly doesn't nor should it disenfranchise Protestants from having a say in their country today. Ironically this is what you complain has happened to Catholics...
Catholics were initially pleased to see the British Army stop the rioting of the 1960s ending up in some form of ethnic cleansing. It can be argued that the IRA could have done their bit, save Catholics from rioters and leave, but situations like that do allow a certain sort of person more power than they could have dreamt of and that is why the IRA still exist, like a cancer on the Catholics they were supposed to be liberating.
As for the premise of the film, one thing that does need to be addressed is the body count allocated to Pitt's character. We are told he has killed many police men and soldiers and innumerable Loyalists, giving the impression that they in fact hunted Loyalist paramilitaries. The IRA killed more IRA men than Loyalist paramilitaries! Far from saving Catholics, they are simply out to follow an outdated ideology by force and violence. Ironic too that the first killing we see in the film is seen as something suffered only by the Catholic community.
Homeaddress if you want to read something sobering and realistic about Northern Ireland, try "Lost Lives," it'll show the lie behind your arguements.
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Homeaddress. I wasn't upset that the IRA guys got away with shooting the British army soldiers (and police). I just thought it seemed daft. I actually started watching the film on TV at that point, didn't know what it was about and thought it must be some sort of heroic shootout at the end of a film. It just seemed extremely unlikely that they got away. It seemed extremely unlikely that 1) a professional soldier would wander into a room without support and lower his weapon to a guy with an assault rifle in his lap without making sure he was disarmed or dead. 2) That professional soldiers would go running through a gate on mass to be conveniently gunned down. 3) That they wouldn't have been tracked through the woods by the helicopter with thermal imaging. 4) The MI6(?) guy had an unbelievably plummy accent. It has to have some level of reality to be believable. Yes, Hollywood does do do this kind of thing a lot. They're great at comedy thrillers.
The IRA have killed far more civilians in NI than either the loyalist paramilitaries or the British Army. Yes, the Protestants were originally Scottish/English planters, but it's 2005 now, not 1601. Or should the English bomb the French because William the Conquerer had a better army than Harold? Want a united Ireland? Get a majority to vote Sinn Féin. Stabbing their own people outside bars probably wont help.
First of all, anyone who is not from the North of Ireland please shut your *beep* mouths. Do not judge if you have never lived here. To answer and comment on some statements made. First of all about gun battles between the PIRA and the Army. There have been dozens of gun fights between the two. Some the PIRA won and some the Army one. Ive got two examples here for you. On Saturday 27th June 1970, the army had a tip off about a group of IRA SOLDIERS taking residence at a nearby house. The (In their usual style) burst through the door, beat up a few woman and children and ransacked the house. The men had escaped through the back door and they chased them. The caught up with them on the grounds of St. Matthews Catholic Church, just off the Short Strand in East Belfast, and so insued a GUN BATTLE. It lasted 2 and a half hours, of which 2 Paras (Parachute Regiment) were killed and 5 PIRA men perished.....that doesn't sound cowardly to me. Second example is actually in my home town of Downpatrick in County Down. Friday 12th 1989 in which a unit of PIRA men (usually contains 6 men) ambushed TWO trucks full of british soldiers (about 20/25 men) In the attack which lasted just under an hour, 4 brits died (Royal Irish Regiment) and NO Irish died. Another example of bravery and soldiers being bested by courage.
Sinn Féin are already the biggest political party in the whole Island of Ireland. Stretching from Derry to Cork. We have MLA's and TD's everywhere, and people cannot stomach that. The PIRA's guns have beem silent since 1996, unlike the Loyalists. They always end up fighting during the summer. The Robert McCartney murder was carried out by a group of thugs. Yes, were members of the PIRA, but that does not mean that the PIRA carried out the attack. It's like saying if a group of young men got drunk and they were members of the labour party, they end up stabbing and killing somebody in a drunken brawl.....DID TONY BLAIR AND THE GOVERNMENT CARRY OUT THAT MURDER???? And let me tell you this. Robert McCartney was no angel. Involved in robberies, done time in prison. Only a week after his murder, the friend he was with that night was up in court for GBH and carrying a lethal weapon with intent to cause harm. But, did you hear that in the news? Nope.
As for you Brian_Boru, you can spot a Southerner a mile off.....You sound just as British as the unionists up here. You've forgotten what it is to be truely IRISH!
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Homeaddress, why don't you at least try to prove you have some humanity in you by addressing what Petedave quoted in his post;
"pregnant woman thrown 15 ft (4.6 m) into the air"
What has this got to do with plantations centuries ago and with the British Army in Northern Ireland. If you can just dignify yourself by explaining why this woman had to suffer like this (not the last time Irish Republicans would attack pregnant women) then maybe we can offer you a degree of respect.
Until then you cannot be taken seriously at all. Especially with such ridiculous arguments.
Also the republic of Ireland was handed back.The north wasn't because the Brits had stuck too many of their colonists there.If they handed back the republic there is no reason why the north shouldn't have been to from a moral standpoint other it would have been too awkward for britain because their plans to own this island had gone a little better in the north.
The Republic of Ireland was handed back to no-one! The Irish Free State was created from a partition of Ireland (as was Northern Ireland) and the actual Irish Republic some time later. If you can't even grasp these facts don't harp onto anyone else about history!
Seriously, what would happen if someone in your own family was killed by a Republic or Loyalist or Islamic (or any other) terrorist? Would you calmly accept their death as part of a legitamite war. You pointed out so quickly that Brian Boru is a Protestant, as if that would denegrate his arguements any. Is it really so important for you to be such a bigot? Are you actually from the Republic of Ireland?
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Tomas-Milligan, some errors cropped up in your post.
Yes, were members of the PIRA, but that does not mean that the PIRA carried out the attack
See, if a Republican can say that the actions of individual British soldiers are a conspiracy from the PM down to the infantryman to wipe out Catholics for good, why can't the same be applied to the IRA? Why is it every act not good for the IRA propaganda machine, the murder of Mr McCartney, the shooting of Irish policeman Gerry McCabe etc is suddenly an act carried out by someone who just co-incidently happens to be an IRA man?
And its interesting to note that you have included Mr McCartney's past history. Is this supposed to exonerate his killers or rationalise his death somehow?
that doesn't sound cowardly to me
Who said it was cowardly? Its the kind of acts that I really wish Loyalists and Republicans would take elsewhere and not get bystanders involved in.
Besides, if we wish to talk about Irish Republican cowards, lets talk about those that planted the bombs in towns and cities where nobody but innocent civilian's died. But then Martin McGuinness has already excused those killed by IRA bombs as people who were being nosey, so its ok that they died... share
Don't talk about innocent civilians alastairward . The British have murdered and imprisoned innocent catholics for years. Alot of which died in the prisons because of the treatment they recieved while in there. When it comes down to it, the British are the ONLY ones responsible for the way Ireland is today. The Republicans in the 1970's were only fighting for what they knew was rightly theirs. The disgusting treatment us catholics recieved, treated like bits of dirt, the Police and Army working alongside the Loyalist terrorist organisations...catholics not being able to get jobs because of what they were. This is why the troubles started. Would you have stood for that? So what if they planted bombs! It called war! Governments do it all the time. How many innocents in Iraq have GB and USA killed with their raids? Im sure it's in its thousands. Is that cowardly? So, please don't spout on about the troubles you *beep* british upstart.
shareI will talk about innocent civilians, they're the one's who've ultimately suffered the most. The British are not the only ones responsible for the way the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is today. Loyalists and Republicans acting like spoilt children have undone much of the work that people like John Hume and others have done to try and bring people together in Northern Ireland.
What people like you don't seem to realise is that there are people like me who've seen both sides commit atrocities in my lifetime, without actually being around when the plantations or marches of the 1960s. All I've seen are Catholics and Protestants commiting the most horrific acts on each other in the name of some *beep* ideology. How can I possibly find anything to raise Republicans or Loyalists over the other?
Call me a beeping anything you want if it feels it somehow justifies your arguements, talk about the war in Iraq as if its somehow connected to Northern Ireland. It still doesn't make you any less of a bigot. If you are so full of hatred and can accept the killing and maiming of pregnant women, don't expect anyone to take your side over anyone elses.
I'm talking about in 1921 when they GAVE the North to the protestants when it wasn't theirs to give....who's fault was that? For the Republicans in the North its not an ideology. It's Patriotism. Something the English know nothing about. We have had our country and our identity taken away from us, then forced to live under an oppressive government. Only recently it has changed. I never said I accepted the killing of innocents, but I accept that it happens in times of war.
shareI'm talking about in 1921 when they GAVE the North to the protestants when it wasn't theirs to give....who's fault was that?
The partitioning of Ireland into a Free State and Northern Ireland was the least bad solution there was. There would have been more bloodshed if it hadn't been done. It was an attempt that worked well to make most people happy. A minority (who seem discontent with everything) didn't like it, it happens in all countries. The difference being that this minority hijacked the Civil Right's movement to throw their ideology all over the place. Sad really.
As for you Brian_Boru, you can spot a Southerner a mile off.....You sound just as British as the unionists up here. You've forgotten what it is to be truely IRISH!
Your idea of being "Irish" as with a lot of Republicans seems quite quaint and at odds with what relatives of mine seem to think it means. I have much family in counties Monaghan and Dublin and other places, they don't understand the fuss and really only looked at Northern Ireland as a place to avoid because of terrorism. Your quote above shows how truely backward and ignorant you are! It would be laughable if this ideology of yours wasn't shared by so many gun toting maniacs.
Its also a shame you don't recognise the circular logic, if its ok for Republicans to maim and murder simple because the say someone else did it first, why should they complain at all when its done back to their community in retaliation? share
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Basically its a war to counteract centuries and centuries of irish men, women, and children being murdered by the British or do you just conveniently forget this?
You are convieniently forgetting the partition of Ireland in the 1920s, an arrangement which should have brought peace to the island were it not for a bloodthirsty minority.
What do you expect people to do?Bend over and take it up the ass?Also you forget the whole being treated like 3rd class citizens part up until very recently in their own country.
What about the terrorists' victims? 100s dead, 1000s wounded, the Army never matched this in Northern Ireland's history, ever. This complaint about being treated like 3rd class citizens is rather dubious too (its actually ethnic minorities who suffer at the hands of both Catholics and Protestants who are the 3rd class in Northern Ireland) Even once hardened Republicans admit that the changes in social conditions today are nothing that couldn't have been acheived by purely political means.
The hardening of views caused by terrorists of both religions has gone a far way to making Northern Ireland a worse place to live. I know, I live there, do you?
The IRA despite waht you may think don't purposefully go out to kill many people unlike the Brits did but again its war and some innocent people are going to get hurt,Iraq ring any bells?
The IRA has purposefully gone out to kill a lot of people. You can't argue otherwise, what would planting a bomb in a main street with little to no warning do than kill lots of bystanders?
Britain went to war, it may have been technically dubious but it was to remove quite an evil man and civilian's were not deliberately targeted, unlike the IRA's campaign.
It was the best solution for BRITAIN to try to contain a mess they had made themselves and look how much blood has been shed for decades since anyway.
It was the best solution that brought decades of peace before the terrorists ruined it... share
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In 1920 Britain had no right to partition Ireland, this is the whole point.It was accepted at the time by Republicans because it was better than nothing
What "right" was necessary then for them to partition Ireland? Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. While still being distinct culturally, economically, militarily, socially, politically it was wedded to the rest of the UK. The UK exercised power over part of its territory, thats all.
Republicans accepted it because it wasn't the force of arms that bent the Government's will but public opinion, Republicans took what they could.
Britain didn't want to know about what was going on until bombs started going off there then the attitude couldn't have changed faster.
Britain adopted a hands off attitude to Northern Ireland, it was accepted that Northern Ireland was handling its own affairs. Thats how Catholics were mistreated, by their co-residents in NI, the Protestant majority. How can you not realise that. I'd say you amaze me with that paragraph but then you've displayed your ignorance on here before...
Thatcher let all the hunger strikers die no problem, she couldn't care less as we had seen with some of her other actions
Hunger strikers were a big problem and to intervene or give in would have left her in a weaker position. She was doing the best she could in her situation.
Like it or not the suituation that Britain had created meant that violence was actually necessary.
What's sad is that the publicity that Catholics were getting from being so oppressed may have left them with a United Ireland by the 1970s. What stopped them was terrorist violence, it was felt NI couldn't be handed over with much bloodshed that the Irish security forces would never be able to handle.
Isn't it strange how Republicans also found themselves being forced to negotiate by the same means? Many terrorists were killed and their activities curtailed by security force activity in NI, they admit that too. So we were all left with political means to find solutions to our problems which is what we could have done all along
How sad that someone so inhuman as you who tries to justify the murder of pregnant woman can't accept that... share
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The fact that Britain had ousted the Irish from their land centuries ago was a moot point. It was accepted as British territory by everyone, even most Irish accepted it as de facto. The British could dictate what happened in Ireland, to ignore this and then complain about British occupation is hypocracy and quite illogical.
The "plantation folk" as you put it did have a problem with being taken out of the UK as did many other British citizens. They did take it up with the Government, that's why we have the partitioning of Ireland.
Thatcher knew that she could either give in immediately to the hunger strikers or let them strike until they gave up or died. There were no other alternatives, to do the former would have weakened her immeasurably, at least she showed that she had nerve.
Treaties and political agreements would have been signed regardless of IRA actions, it was the IRA who found that military action had limits that were reached many years ago. All IRA terrorism has done for Irish Republicans is leave Sinn Fein in charge of their movement.
You cannot be flabbergasted can you? Bloody Sunday wasn't just a reason to join the IRA, it was reason enough to want a United Ireland, surely a higher goal than mere membership of a terrorist organisation. Britain knew the rise in terrorist acitivities would have made it impossible for the Irish Republic to maintain law and order in the very territory that the Republicans wanted it to possess, rather ironic (even if it would be lost on you)
Thousands have died in the years since like you say but it should tell you something about the treatment people have had that they would rather do this than lie down under British rule
It says more about the inhumanity of Irish Republicans and British Loyalists, again something that is lost on you... share
"Here We go again.
Message for Tomas-Milligan, very slowly:
I have never set foot in Ireland.
I have never imprisoned, tortured, killed or oppressed anybody.
My parents, grandparents, great grand parents, great, great, great grandparents, and the rest of the family tree could all have said the same.
And yet for most of my adult life I have been considered a legitimate target for IRA bombs.
If this is not killing ( or threatening to kill ) innocent targets, what is?"
First of all to imdb-5601! Me or any of my recent or deceased relatives have never set foot in England, we have never imprisoned, tortured, killed or oppressed anybody. And yet for some of mine and most of their lives, we have have/had been considered a legitimate target for british troops. We were searched, beaten, tortured (My grandad was made permanately deaf as he was tortured for 5 days in Castlereagh Barracks, just because the Brits couldn't find his mate). But, what have we ever done....enough said.
You disgust me alastairward! I have NEVER heard anyone; Catholic, Protestant, English, defend Margaret Thatcher's actions since The Hunger Strikes ended. All they wanted was political recognition. As the Hunger Strikers statement says:
"We have asserted that we are political prisoners and everything about our country, our arrests, interrogations, trials and prison conditions, show that we are politically motivated and not motivated by selfish reasons or for selfish ends. As further demonstration of our selflessness and the justness of our cause a number of our comrades, beginning with Bobby Sands, will hunger strike to the death unless the British government abandons its criminalization policy and meets our demand for political status."
Three of them were actually members of government Kieran Doherty and Thomas McElwee were Teachta Dàil (members of the Irish Parliament) and the great Bobby Sands was voted an MP (member of british parliament for u americans), voted for by his own people. It was a disgusting act by a disgusting Prime Minister. She never gave the Catholics the time of day. She totally disregarded them as 3rd class citizens and it showed in her actions here. If they had of been english, she would have stepped in immeadiatly.
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Why do they think the IRA were doing this?For fun?
Some may actually beleive their ideology, some may have done it because they witnessed an atrocity, some may have done it because it was ground into them from birth that they must hate and act in a certain way, some may have done it because they recognised a route to a position of power.
Its important to note that again their counterparts in Loyalist organisations were acting in the same manner, a circle of hate that bred more and more violence.
when IRA bombs go off in Britain, yet we'll just forget about all the British atrocities on irish soil over the years when no irish person had ever done a thing to Britain.It really is galling their hypocracy
What is galling is the idea that innocent civilian's should be made to pay for the hate and stupidity of such a minority in the UK and Ireland. Again, how can you excuse the murder of pregnant women who could not possibly have anything to do with the violence in Northern Ireland. Is is possibly you are sweeping something under the carpet?...
In fairness I think even most Brits do recognise that Thatcher was a bit of a disaster.Her only notable feature was that she didn't mind people dying at her hands as long as they weren't British
In fairness if you're going to claim to know what millions of people think, its manners to provide some sort of cite. Otherwise we'll have to assume you're talking nonsense (again)
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You disgust me alastairward!
Something tells me I should accept that as a compliment ;)
Whatever the hunger strikers statement says, someone imprisoned for murder is still a murderer no matter what cause or reason they give. Political recognition would have meant what specifically? The right to wear casual clothing instead of prison uniforms? The right to kill men, women and children and be released after serving a pittance of a life sentence?
BTW I was not trying to defend or promote Margaret Thatcher's actions, just try and enlighten you as to the real shady dealings that went on between all sides in the Troubles.
But in a way its unfortunate really that there weren't more people like Bobby Sands, at least he didn't kill anyone with his hunger strike other than himself. Its sad and ironic that those celebrating his sacrifice were too cowardly to try and build on his actions, instead preferring others to die for their backward ideology.
And yet for some of mine and most of their lives, we have have/had been considered a legitimate target for british troops. We were searched, beaten, tortured (My grandad was made permanately deaf as he was tortured for 5 days in Castlereagh Barracks, just because the Brits couldn't find his mate). But, what have we ever done....enough said
A pretty poor excuse for the murder of children and pregnant women. Answer the question properly, if you object to what you term unjustified imprisonment and physical assault, why do you think it justifies the murder of others not involved in these crimes? share
Let me tell you this. MOST of the people the IRA targetted or killed during the troubles were legitimate targets. Like I said before, innocent people do get killed. Thats the way it is in war. Get over it. Yet, the bombings such as in Omagh in 1997, were deplorable. Carried out by the RIRA, a rogue break off group who stand for no one but themselves. It was deliberately targeted to murder both Catholics and Protestants. Yet, the ones such as the Canary Wharf, the Manchester and Brighton, were legitimate. They were all sights which could, if completely sucessfull, hurt Britain financially and politically. The Canary Wharf and Manchester bombings were targeted at the biggest financial districts in the UK. And, of course (LOL!) the Brighton Bombing which nearly wiped out the Cabinet and the Government. So, you can see where I'm coming from.
During the troubles, the IRA were an ARMY. An army who stood for 40% of the population. They never have been and never will be terrorists. They were an army. Yes, now they are a group of criminals who deal in arms, cigarettes etc. (But don't think for one second they deal in drugs. In fact they are totally against it. If you live in a Republican area and you are caught or found out that you are dealing drugs to anyone, you have 3 warnings, then......!!!) In my honest opinion, there is no need for them anymore. The war is over and Sinn Féin have taken up the 'fight'. I'm a Republican and even I can see this. All I'm saying is that there was a time when what the IRA did was neccesary. It was. Something had to be done and the Brits weren't listening to us. If we hadn't had done what we done, we would STILL be in the same position we were 35 years ago. And I don't regret, nor will I apoligise for ANYTHING the IRA did during that time.
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MOST of the people the IRA targetted or killed during the troubles were legitimate targets. Like I said before, innocent people do get killed. Thats the way it is in war. Get over it. Yet, the bombings such as in Omagh in 1997, were deplorable
Most of the people the IRA targetted were, by their own standards "legitimate" targets. But look at the statistics included in the website http://www.cain.ulst.ac.uk/ and you'll see what a surprisingly large number of Catholics (and civilians of any religion) Irish Republicans in general and the IRA in particular actually killed.
When they could so easily have avoided planting bombs in shopping areas but didn't, it becomes an even worse statistic. Even you, an Irish Republic declare bombings such as Omagh deplorable (which is hardly surprising I suppose given the negative publicity it gave Sinn Fein)
During the troubles, the IRA were an ARMY. An army who stood for 40% of the population
Whether or not they were an army or not is word play, but they most certainly did not represent 40% of the population. They may have said so, but they in no way had support from every Catholic in Northern Ireland, that much is clear.
(But don't think for one second they deal in drugs. In fact they are totally against it. If you live in a Republican area and you are caught or found out that you are dealing drugs to anyone, you have 3 warnings, then......!!!)
They don't always necessarily deal, but they do control suppliers, often in conivance with Loyalist paramilitaries. share
Even you, an Irish Republican declare bombings such as Omagh deplorable (which is hardly surprising I suppose given the negative publicity it gave Sinn Fein)
Please research information before you open your arrogant, british mouth. The Omagh Bombing was carried out by the Real IRA. They are a rogue militant group who stand for a HANDFUL of psychotic radicals. Sinn Féin are attributed to the Provisional IRA. The group who haven't fired a gun since 1996.
Like I said before, the killing of innocents is regretable but unavoidable. No matter whether they are catholics or protestants. Using bombs was the only way we could have challenged the British government. We didnt have the man power OR the fire power to take on the Army. So we used guerilla tactics, something which brought the British government to its knees when Michael Collins used it in 1920.
They don't always necessarily deal, but they do control suppliers, often in conivance with Loyalist paramilitaries.
The PROVISIONAL IRA never have and never will deal in drugs. In 'conivance with Loyalist Paramilitaries'? What planet do you live on? You have no idea what you are talking about. Thats what really gets me. share
please research information before you open your arrogant, british mouth.
Lol, freedom of speech is a pain in the arse, isn't it? ;)
So we used guerilla tactics, something which brought the British government to its knees when Michael Collins used it in 1920
Whatever tactics the IRA used (and don't say "we" unless you're trying to admit to being a paramilitary yourself, instead of an armchair commander hiding behind your PC screen) guerilla or otherwise, they still deliberately targetted civilians. The events of Bloody Friday were the outcome, only 2 soldiers were killed but 7 civilians were murdered and 130 severly injured. Read the rather unpleasant account here; http://www.cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bfriday/sum.htm
In 'conivance with Loyalist Paramilitaries'? What planet do you live on? You have no idea what you are talking about. Thats what really gets me.
I live in Belfast, United Kingdom, Europe, planet Earth ;)
Yes in conivance with Loyalist Paramilitaries, how else is there so much drug dealing carried out in Republican areas?
And the IRA have shot people after their so called ceasefire, under the guise of an anti-drugs organisation many people thought to deal drugs on Republican housing estates have been murdered. Unless of course they paid the IRA protection money first ;) share
Well you obviously live in a part of Belfast that no one else lives in. How would you know what goes on in Republican areas of Belfast? Only people who live their know....namely...ME! If I have to repeat myself on this one more time....The REAL IRA deal in the drugs, shoot people etc. The PROVISIONAL IRA do not. Yes, they deal in other criminal activities but not shooting people or drugs. Do...you...understand...me?
Whatever tactics the IRA used (and don't say "we" unless you're trying to admit to being a paramilitary yourself, instead of an armchair commander hiding behind your PC screen)
I was talking about 'we' as in Republicans...and you know nothing about me or my *beep* family! Cock! share
The Provisional IRA have been caught before aquiring guns from America to use through their cover organisation DAAD. The idea was that they could use guns not used by the IRA before and thus maintain a facade of innocence while murdering drug dealers who probably didn't pay up protection money.
Only people who live their know....namely...ME!
We're conversing via the internet, you could claim to be a canadian midget transexual and we'd still be none the wiser. What do your capitalisations and claims to live in some terribly Republican area of Belfast have to do with your arguement?
and you know nothing about me or my *beep* family!
I never said anything about your family, just the fact that you seem to be making statements on behalf of the IRA without any sort of evidence to membership. A republican may support the IRA without being a member.
Cock!
Now you're resorting to profanities, goodness me, you must be winning the arguement then
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you r tlkin sh!t ward, goin on about the PIRA bein drug dealers,controlling dealers...EXECUTING THE OMAGH BOMBING?
how can i argue against people who are just telling plain bare faced lies and PROPAGANDA
you r tlkin sh!t ward, goin on about the PIRA bein drug dealers,controlling dealers...EXECUTING THE OMAGH BOMBING?
how can i argue against people who are just telling plain bare faced lies and PROPAGANDA
How's about you actually read what I posted. I saw something hypocritical in someone who could justify bombings that one Republican group carried out yet called those of another group deplorable.
Why is it the PIRA can bomb and kill women and children and Republicans call it ok, yet another group can bomb and kill women and children and its not? share
These people were criminals, end of dicussion. They chose to murder, hence criminals. If they were locked up for being members of sinn Fein, then yes they would have been Political prisoners.
And for the record, i personally beleive we should not be in Northern Ireland, you cannot reason with people who hold 400 yr old grudges, and march through someones home town just to remind them of a battle that most people cannot even place cos it happened so long ago. The whole story of NI is a sad tragic tale of people dying when they dont need to. All that hate, all that killing has achieved precisly nothing. Not. A. Single. Thing.
Please justify the deliberate murder of a 3 year old who was only guilty of going shopping with his family.
Please justify the blowing up of an airliner containing 200 people. Guilty of being on a American plane.
Please justify flying planes full of passengers into office buildings killing thousands. Guilty of being able to vote.
Please justify strapping explosives to your chest and walking into a crowd/tube station/shopping centre and killing as many of those around you as you can. Guilty of being there.
All terrorists are scum, no matter how you try and justify. If they restricted targets to military/political targets, i might respect them. At least the majority of the insurgents i fought in Iraq targetted the military. I respected, but hated, them...As for the IRA/Al Queda, i wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire. They are all murderers.
cgrantwilts u wer sayin about how u wud respect ppl a bit more if the targeted politicians or military,thats what the IRA did,shows wat u no mate
and yes civilians get killed and its bad *beep* but u cant name one time were civilians wer intentionaly murdered by the IRA for no good reason
and were tlkin P-IRA not C or R cus yes i agree they are murdering drug dealing bastards and just as bad as loyalists
ok, you said not the C or R, fair enough, i wont count omagh. What about Warrington? Harrods in London? Tube stations, pubs? London Docklands? No doubt you will mention how warnings were given, which is a poor excuse,like saying "i sounded the car horn, its not my fault the car plowed into a crowd of people!" If you dont want to kill civilians, dont put bombs in civ places. If you want to attack the army/police/government, then attack army bases, or police stations, or the houses of parliament/whitehall. The IRA did do so on occasion, fair enough, those are legitimate targets.
But dont put a bomb in a bin in a crowded shopping centre. Or a birmingham pub. Or a hotel. Saying the ira didnt once murder deliberately innocent civilians is simply untrue. they might not have said i am going to kill HIM, but they had every intention of killing as many brits as they could. 30 years of killing, over 3000 dead, and there is nothing to show for it. The army left, or is leaving as soon as ira said it was ceasing operations. and yes, the army only went there to protect catholics from the protestant rioters, including one iain paisley, who has caused more death and destruction than some people wanted by the Hague. The day that charlatan of a clergyman dies, the world will be a better place. It did turn round the other way, but it is a historical FACT that the army deployed for that very reason.
yes ok i see all your points
but some of those bombs wer there for a reason ,not just to kill innocent british citizens
such as the brighton hotel bomb,its purpose was to kill margaret thatcher(and just everyones luck that the bastard survived)
im not saying the army wasnt deployed to protect catholics,but it certainly wasnt wat they did.
also the IRA have ceased operations(to say they have disbanded is a lie,but the main body and operations have shut down)
the IRA are now a joke and the british army outposts are being taken down and the R.I.R(i think thats the one) has been disbanded
but N.I is still "geographically" part of the uk and thats wrong and no matter wat u say about the IRA or nationalists,that will never change
and people are saying BUT PPL IN N.I WANT TO BE PART OF THE UK..just look up the plantation,they manipulated irish genes by PLANTING scots and english men over here and taking everything off the irish(they werent even allowed to own land and if they did rent had to be payed to british plantation landowners)
therefore their kids wer raised to consider themselves british and superior to the irish
Ok, i think we might be getting to some common grounds, which is good, cos i really hate argueing :)
I have served in the forces with someone who was in NI at the start of the troubles, and he admits that if they knew then what they know now, NI would never have turned out the way it did. The british Army back then made many of the mistakes the US army is making in Iraq now, (hence my belief that Iraq will also take 30 years to fix itself). Back then, The brit army was mainly set up to defend germany against the russians, and brought the same warfighting mentality to NI which caused the whole resentment thing with it.
I dont believe i said they had disbanded, i think i said they have ceased operations. But now they have embraced the ballot box instead of the armalite, maybe they should?
You said some of the bombs were there for a reason. Yes i do agree, the IRA did carry out attacks on appropriate targets, such as 10 downing street, the brighton hotel and various army bases. I have no problem with that (although obviosuly prefer that they didnt!), but i have problems with attacks such as warrington or the birmingham pubs. These were purely civilian targets, and nothing more than murder. Military/political targets are acceptable, deliberate tragetting of civ places is not.
I do take your point on NI being part of the UK still. Unfortunatley, as long as we are democratic, we are obliged to follow the wishes of the majority of the population, we cannot overrule a majority of british subjects in favour of a minority no matter how distasteful that majority is.
The Brit govt is on record for over ten years that we have no interest in remaining there, and if the majority of the population wish to secede from the UK then that will be fine with us! 150-300 years have passed since the deliberate ethnic cleansing policy that gave away irish land, cant see it as being "deliberate" population manipulation; the govt back then had a strange view of democracy so the idea of the people choosing their nationality was probably beyond them! I dont see that as a valid reason for killing each other now.
If memory serves though, the ratio of catholic/protestant population is altering slowly in favour of the catholics, so i believe it is only a matter of time before the catholics are in the majority. It wont be next year or the year after, but it will happen.
then we agree cgrantwilts
but what i was meant when i said,to say the ira had disbanded would be an insult,i meant that if I tried to tell you they had disbanded then i would be insulting you,because they havnt(well their not what they used to b, thats for sure)
Catholics and Protestants hating each other over religion? Over who's great-granda did what to the other? Over where great, great, great Uncle Henry actually came from? Are these really good enough reasons for decades of bloodshed? Sorry peeps but yer never gonna move forward if you keep looking back
Bottom line seems to be; promise to play nice and the British army will leave
(Yeah, I know I've possibly over-simplified things but my attention span is shor...)
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Here We go again.
Message for Tomas-Milligan, very slowly:
I have never set foot in Ireland.
I have never imprisoned, tortured, killed or oppressed anybody.
My parents, grandparents, great grand parents, great, great, great grandparents, and the rest of the family tree could all have said the same.
And yet for most of my adult life I have been considered a legitimate target for IRA bombs.
If this is not killing ( or threatening to kill ) innocent targets, what is?
The IRA are criminals and have nothing to do with reunifying Ireland now, even the Irish Far-Right who want just that acknowledge this.
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oh my god gloops you need shot dead ,o *beep* shoot yourself please..
"
The British Army went into Northern Ireland in the recent troubles (last 30 years) to PROTECT the Catholics from equally loony Loyalist thugs"
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!O JESUS HANG UP THE ROPE U STUPID D***
manies a time my friend,its called guerrilla warfare
they are a trained army not pitchfork wielding country folk
ok this is getting stupid...so beacuse the I.R.A. dont have tanks and uniforms it makes them anymore less of an army that the british army,thats what thay said about michael collins and god bless that man for if it was not for him there wouldnt be a republic now.he used force cos it was the only way to get back what irelands people have never had,thier own country free from british occupation,and thats what you have in n.ireland now.the people of n.ireland were sadly given a bad deal and as a result got partitioned and that want what anybosy would want,to be reunited with reland as a whole away from UVF scum and occuaption from an invading force,the prods living thier treat the native irish like *beep* in a country not even thiers,untill ireland is united i dont thing peace will ever exist.
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IRA BASTARDS, WHY YOU BLODDY LITTLE SH*T SHOVE OFF YOU YANKER, GROW UP, BE A MAN, COME OVER AND SEE FOR YOURSELF WHAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH, UNLESS YOU ARE CHICKEN SH*T BRITISH BASTARD
shareAnyone looking for a serious intelligent disgusion is clearly in the wrong part of town. Everyone has their opinions and thats blinds us from the facts. Facts are its a war between two groups that has lead to many dead and is confusing and although its peacful now except for the scattered stabbings between drunks, its not over. No one is right here. Attrocities have been carried out on both sides. If you wanna complain that one side did this than first look at your own side and say, "well wait a sec, was I there? Do I really know what happend or do I know what I've been told" Unless you PERSONALLY have been in a firefight during the troubles, keep quiet and take the disgushing back to the movie.
On that note the firefight was slightly over the top. Although I don't remember being told they were S.A.S. that doesn't mean they are perfect. Remember they were setting a trap but it got spotted. One of the easiest was to take causalties in a fight is have your ambush seen and prevented, thats why those men died(except for the fat soldier who put his gun down, that was just Hollywood, as with the second man at the gate, the first was a fair shot) Three men with automatic weapons, spotting the ambush and fireing first from a well know position, elevated at that, firing down onto the street would have the advantge. The escape was a stretch but its urban combat which is confusing. Is it unrealistic, yes, out of the question, no.