IRA

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Nope - to the sniper muppet.

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In my experience people in NI are for the most part very nice. You meet horrible people no matter where you go. I'm from ROI - born and raised there but have lived in NI and mainland UK too. ROI is certainly my least favourite of all those places. I think NI would be my favourite as it combines the best of both worlds from ROI and GB. You've got the standard of living and facilities etc from GB but mixed with the lifestyle of ROI. I was lukcy to live in Belfast in a normal area with normal people. Some people are very unlucky to be born into a bad area with all sorts of madness going on - but those who choose to live a normal life and just get on with things as most people in this world want to do can have a very nice life. I know thats oversimplifying things but people like that sniper muppet above get on my goat - moaning and whining - if they just shut up and got on with it and give us all a break!

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YES NO DOUBT WESTMINISTER HAS TRIED TO MAKE UP FOR THE HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF MURDER, GENOCIDE, TORTURE AND DISCRIMINATION BY PUTTING A FEW PLANTS UP AND BUILDING A FEW SHINY BUILDINGS. WEST BELFAST HAS ALSO RECENTLY ACQUIRED A GAELTACHT - AN IRISH SPEAKING PART WHERE IRISH IS THE MOST SPOKEN - EXCELLTENT IN MY OPINION.

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YES, I HAVE LIVED IN DONEGAL, CORK AND DUBLIN. LOCH AN IUIR IN DONEGAL AND SCHULL IN CORK. I HATE DUBLIN.

I WOULD RATHER LIVE IN A REUNIFIED IRELAND THAN HAVE BRITISH ARMY TRAMPING OVER MY SOIL AND HOLDING OUR COUNTRY TO RANSOM. SHORTTS IS STIL THERE, NEAR MY HOUSE - STILL ALIVE AND KICKING AND STILL RECRUITING. HARLAND AN WOLFF - A COMPLETLY SECTARIAN WORKPLACE.

ITS NOT ALL BLACK AND WHITE VDSC. IT ALL HAS TO BE WORKED OUT IN A WAY THAT UNIONISTS STILL FEEL SAFE. JUST BECAUSE THE MURDERING BRITSH SCUMBAGS PULL OUT DOESNT MEAN THAT KNOWONE WILL BE THERE TO ENFORCE LAW AND ORDER. IT WILL HAVE TO BE WORKED OUT BEFORE HAND.

Turn off the caps why don't you. What are you - Ian Paisley?!

YES I MUST BE IAN PAISLEY BECAUSE I TYPE IN CAPITALS !!

"just if you look like a Catholic "

What does a catholic look like and how does that differ from a protestant?

Yes you certainly shout as much as he does. I bet you taken just about as seriously as he does too.

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As far as I am concerned the IRA can go to hell.
And you have not been invaded by a foreign army Ireland (The North) is part of the British isles. And do you think only the English, Welsh and Scotish join the Army? I have known many Irishmen. It isn't a foreign occupation as Ireland isn't a colony it is part of the British Isles and the United Kingdom.

And that gentleman from ROI (Sorry I can't remember his name) is correct ROI doesn't want NI. And you wouldn't have as good a life.

Why don't you move away from the UK and into ROI, Mr Sniper if you hate it that much?

And as they say some of the things you have been saying are false you are living in the past (with some embelismnets). I consider myself British as I seem to be English, Scotish and Welsh.

The republicans are the minority in NI so why should the Minority say what the majority should do? Why should British citizens be bullied and told they can't be Irish and British.

The IRA are like Al-Quaeda and all terrorsit groups. They will go to Hell and have comupance.
As far as I am concerned the IRA shouldn't call themselves true Catholics or even Christians.

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DOCTOR

IRELAND IS A COLONY OF BRITAIN WEATHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. I DONT RECOGNISE THE LEGITIMACY OF BRITISH RULE IN IRELAND. AND SO MUST THE MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS IF THE VOTE FOR SINN FÉIN - HARDLY A PRO BRITISH PARTY, AS THEY ARE HELL BENT ON REMOVING THE FOREIGN POWER.

I RECOGNISE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE ROI DONT WANT THE NORTH BUT I BELIEVE THAT IF THERE WAS A VOTE TODAY OR TOMORROW IN IRELAND THEN WE WOULD BE SET FREE AT LAST.

WHY WOULD I MOVE ? THIS IS MY COUNTRY AND NO-ONE IS GOING TO MAKE ME MOVE. THAT ARGUMENT IS JUST IMPRACTICAL.

WHAT HAVE I SAID THAT IS FALSE?

REPUBLICANS A MINORITY IN AN IMAGINARY "SET" AREA MADE BY THE BRITISH. IT IS A FALSE STATELET AND DOESNT EVEN COMPREHEND A COUNTRY. IF THE BRISH PULLED THE SIX COUNTIES AWAY FROM THE REST OF IRELAND THEN WHAT IS STOPPING US PULLING REPUBLICAN AREAS AWAY FROM THE SO CALLED "NORTHEN IRELAND". IS THAT NOT THE SAME THING? WELL OF COURSE IF THAT HAPPENED THEN "NORTHERN IRELAND" WOULD COLLAPSE AS IT WOULD BE WAY TOO SMALL FOR A COUNTRY. THAT IS WHY THIS HAS NOT BEEN ALLOWED. HYPOCRISY - SURELY NOT.

IF YOU BELIEVE THE IRA ARE A TERRORIST ORGANISATION THEN IN MY OPINION YOU ARE WRONG. I RECOGNISE THAT THEY HAVE MADE HORRIBLE MISTAKES AND DECISIONS IN THE PAST - BUT ALL THAT HAS DONE IS SET THEM BACK.

AS THE IRA ETHOS GOES, THEY WOULDNT GET INVOLVED IN CALLING THEMSELVES CATHOLICS AS THIS IS SECTARIANISM. JUST TELL THAT TO THE MANY PROTESTANT IRA AND INLA VOLUNTEERS AND ALSO THE PROTESTANT DEAD - (ONLY ONE I CAN THINK OF NOW IS RONNIE BUNTING WHO WAS A PROTESTANT INLA MAN, SON OF A UNIONIST POLITICIAN.)

I HAVE REPLIED TO EACH OF YOUR POINTS RESPECTIVLY IN THE ORDER YOU HAVE MADE THEM.

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WHY WOULD I MOVE ? THIS IS MY COUNTRY AND NO-ONE IS GOING TO MAKE ME MOVE. THAT ARGUMENT IS JUST IMPRACTICAL- what about the people forced to leave because of their so-called anti-social behaviour or any other 'crimes' decided upon by some godfather figure. The PIRA is an organistaion of double standards they claim they were tortured in Castlereagh into confessing to crimes but what of the number of people tortured and shot by the IRA as informants or for whatever reason they decided fitted such treatment. All that they have is a very slick propaganda machine. and your point about the IRA ethos THEY WOULDNT GET INVOLVED IN CALLING THEMSELVES CATHOLICS AS THIS IS SECTARIANISM so where did the cover name of Catholic Reaction Force come form?

[deleted]

CRF NOTHING TO DO WITH PIRA.

INFORMANTS DESERVE TO HAVE THEIR LIFE ENDED. IF THEY HAVE A SOLE THEN THERE LIFE WILL ALREADY BE OVER KNOWING THAT THEY HAVE INFORMED ON THEIR SO CALLED COMRADES.

JOY RIDERS ARE ALSO DEATH RIDERS. THEY DESERVE TO BE KNEECAPPED FOR THE HURT THEY HAVE CAUSED THEIR COMMUNITY. BETTER SHOT SO THAT YOU LEARN YOUR LESSON. IF THE RUC/PSNI GET TO THEM FIRST THEY WILL MAKE THEM "TOUT" ON THEIR OWN COMMUNITTIES SO THAT THEY WONT GET CONVICTED FOR ANYTHING. THIS HAS HAPPENED FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

CriostoirG, I see you have resorted to insults because someone has different opininion to you...well done.

I have not insulted you, unless ofcourse you are a member of the IRA in which I am glad you are offended.

As far as I am concerned the IRA are as bad as Al-Queada...they will be judged and they will be damned in the end!

[deleted]

DOCTOR WHO - NICE TO SEE YOU REPLIED TO MY POST THEN.

I'm from Ireland, and I'd just like to present a different point of view from that presented here by the guy above who CAN'T FIND THE CAPS LOCK KEY.

First of all, most people on this island don't agree with him. Specifically, we don't agree that people should be shot in the head without trial if they're considered "informants" by some group of self-appointed "freedom fighters", as he has just posted.

Secondly, we don't believe that any solution in the north can be brought about by violence. And indeed, even those in the republican movement (the IRA, for those not familiar with the politics of the area) are slowly coming to that conclusion. Painfully slowly, but slowly.

Thirdly, the vast, vast, vast majority of people on the island of Ireland have no prejudice against anyone british, or scottish, or welsh, or english, or dutch, or martian. We don't think you stole our land. We don't think you are personally responsible for the famine of 1848. We'd like to meet you, have a pint, and if you're good looking (and of an appropriate gender) take you home and invite you in for a coffee.

And finally - this is a movie website. We're not going to re-run the battle of the boyne here. At best, we can hope that the fellow who is keyboard-ly challenged will eventually figure out where the caps-lock key is. (Hint hint - go left, search above the shift key.)

Anybody seen any good movies lately?

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WELL JAMES FLYNN. YOU MUST BE PISSED OFF AT SINN FÉIN'S CONSTANT GROWTH IN THE 26 COUNTIES AND THEIR MAJORITY STATUS IN THE OCCUPPIED SIX COUNTIES NATIONALIST POPULATION. PEOPLE LIKE YOU FROM THE 26 REALLY PISS ME OFF. YOU ALREADY HAVE YOUR FREEDOM AND A LOT OF YOU STOPPED AT THAT - NOT GIVING A *beep* ABOUT US. THAT WOULD BE UNFAIR TO GENERALISE YOU ALL BECAUSE AN AWFULLOT HAVE STAYED FAITHFUL TO WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS RIGHT AND WERN'T TURNED OFF BY THE SLIGHTEST THING.

YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE. LIVE UP HERE IN A REPUBLICAN GHETTO AND SEE WHAT YOUR VIEW POINT IS.

YOU CAN ALWAYS PHONE THE GUARDS. WHO DO WE HAVE ?

[deleted]

I don't want to be involved in the British vs Irish thing that seems to be happening here, but i live in the East midlands too, and I have also noticed that sport shops only sell Celtic tops, as opposed to Rangers tops. When McCoys said that there was a large Irish community, here I am assuming he/she is talking about the travelling community.

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Crossmaglen_Sniper,

No No No! I really need you to take one small thing away from this email thread. I accept that you'll never realise that putting bullets in people's heads is counter-productive to a united ireland. I accept that no amount of facts or debate will ever stop you from hating "the brits" or "the prods".

I just want you to make one small simple step towards democratic politics - by learning where the CAPS LOCK key is on your keyboard. For the love of God, man - the 800 years of British Oppression and all that are no excuse for your typing. It may *explain* it, but it doesn't *excuse* it.

I'm not "pissed off" by Sinn Fein's limited electoral rise, I hope that it will convince them of the obvious truth that 35 years of terrorism achieved essentialy *nothing* except thousands of deaths, whereas a few short years of democratic action have brought them into a position of real influence. And if they go back to bombing, all the influence will melt away in an instant. It's decision time for Sinn Fein and the IRA - and I'm optimistic, because depite the course they've chosen in the past, their leadership are not idiots.

As for your point that only people who live in a situation have the right to comment on its morality, well that's nonsense if you think about it! Do you have an opinion on the war in Iraq? George Bush? Israel/Palestine? Third-world debt? Well, according to your argument, you've no right to an opinion.

Somehow, I doubt that will stop you giving your opinion again though . . . . :-)

[deleted]

JAMES FLYNN.

I DON'T HATE PROTESTANTS. I DONT SEE THIS STRUGGLE AS A RELIGIOUS ONE, WHICH YOU MIGHT, ONLY SINGLE MINDED PEOPLE BRAND IRELANDS FIGHT AS ONE BETWEEN CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS. THE ONLY PEOPLE I HATE ON THIS ISLAND ARE THE BRITISH SECURITY FORCES WHO ARE HOLDING US AGAINST OUR WILL.

THE ONLY THING THAT BROUGHT THE BRITS TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE WAS THE BOMBS AND THE BULLETS. ACHIEVED NOTHING, THAT IS NOT WHAT THE REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT CONSTITUTIONAL NATIONALISM THINKS. WE WILL SEE WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS. CALLING IT 35 YEARS OF TERRORISM IS VERY IGNORANT. DO YOU THINK THAT 99% OF THE REPUBLICAN MEMBERS IN PRISON WOULD EVER HAD STEPPED FOOT INSIDE A PRISON GATE HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE SITUATION THAT WAS PRESENT.

GOOD POINT ABOUT THE OPINION - THAT DOESNT STOP AN ISRAELI SAYING I SHOULDNT HAVE AN OPINION ON PALESTINE OR THE AMERICANS SAYING THE SAME ABOUT IRAQ. I DO BELIEVE IF YOU LIVED UP HERE YOUR OPINION MIGHT CHANGE EVER THE SLIGHTEST.

[deleted]

Hi Charlie,

> The actions of the IRA as distasteful as they were, were not a waste of time

The IRA of 1916 and the Provisional IRA of the Northern Ireland conflict where entirely different organisations, in entirely different historical contexts, with entirely different methods.

The undoubted discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland never justified the campaign of slaughter of non-combatant protestants that the Provisional IRA carried out.

They may have carried out a protective role for the Catholic community in the early years of the conflict, but they quickly moved to be a marxist violent revolutionary movement, whose tactics included mass terrorist slaughter. Don't agree? Ok, how would you explain the officially-sanctioned IRA "actions" at Kings Mill, Teebane, Claudy Day, La Mon House, Tullyvallen, the Shankhill Fish Shop, Enniskillen, and (by their former members) Omagh? All mistakes? All "acceptable collateral damage" in the pursuit of a higher goal? Maybe not.

> The saddest part is that the irish people were put
> in a situation where this was the only course of action
> open to them afetr being ignored for so long.

The vast majority of the Irish People did *not* support the IRA during the troubles. It's only in the most recent election (and since they're apparently left the machine gun in their murky past) that they've achieved a majority of votes from the nationalist population. Note that they regularaly recieved 10% of the vote in *northern* *ireland* alone in the 80s, and even less in the south, before they gave up bombing.

There was always another option in the northern ireland conflict, and during that conflict, the majority of northern nationalists supported that non-violent option. It was just the extremists from both sides who turned to the gun.

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Sniper,

I doubt that we differ on objective. Most people in the 26 counties very much desire a united Ireland, despite the obvious economic cost. Where we differ is in what is the best way to achieve this objective, and what we consider reasonable and moral steps along that path.

The vast majority of people on the island of Ireland want us to resolve our political differences without the use of violence. Sinn Fein, the party which is, let's say "frequently associated" with the Provisional IRA, received a little over 10% of the votes in the last Irish elections. They got more north of the border, and less south of the border - it averages out at a little over 10% of the entire Irish population. Most people are revolted by what they do.

You make an often-made point about terrorism - it's in the eye of the beholder, I guess. Killing 11 people at a rememberance day religious service in Enniskillen, burning to death 12 protestant pensioners in La Mon House, blowing up 8 protestant construction workers in a mini-bus in Teebane. The IRA considers these events honourable actions in a war of liberation. I consider these things to be terrorism.

Now, there were plenty - *plenty* - of appalling actions taken by the British Security forces in NI over the course of the past 35 years, and I'm not excusing their actions. But what the IRA did was simply depraved, plain and simple. Nothing that the british did justified the IRA's slaughter of innocents. *Nothing*

Most importantly, Sniper, is that the murders and bombs were futile, and harmed the cause of Irish unity more than it helped. Ever hear of the Sunningdale Agreement of 1973? I imagine it was from long before you were born! This power-sharing agreement between the two communities, that was wrecked by the extremists from both sides. Can you tell me what significant concession the Good Friday agreement has given us over and above Sunningdale 1973? Sweet Nothing - that's what.

All the 35 years of killing did was make the unionist community distrust the nationalist of catholic community *more* than before. How much closer to a united ireland are we now, after all the murdering and bombing and executions? We're further away.

So, my original point of posting was really to point out to any casual reader of this thread that your opinions are very much in the minority today (thank goodness), and we in Ireland have a path forward, the vast majority of us north and south of the border don't hate the "brits" or wish to resolve our political differences without "putting lead in heads".

Kind regards and good luck in the future,
James

What the UVF did was sectarian slaughter, plain and simple. But does that make sectarian slaughter by the IRA then RIGHT? If a protestant goes out and shoots a random innocent catholic, does that give the IRA the right to do the same? I don't think it does! And if you don't think the IRA bombed and killed random protestants over the course of the troubles, then you need to read your history some more.

The IRA may have started with a defensive policy in the late 60s/early 70s, but that quickly evolved into the same mindless slaughter as the UVF, only on more professional scale. I fail to see how killing a three year old child in Warrington in 1993 advanced the cause of Irish unity. Can you explain to me how it did? Jonathan Ball was just one of *hundreds* of completely innocent civilians murdered by the IRA. Pointless, wasted, slaughter.

But all that luckily is almost in the past. There was always a way to resolve the problems without the bombs, and only a small minority of the catholic population north and south ever supported the IRA. Now, finally, after 35 years, even the mindless extremists have figured out they can achieve their objectives quicker and easier without violence. Slow learners.

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[deleted]

I DO BELIEVE THAT SUCH THINGS AS ENNISKILLEN, LA MON AND A FEW OTHERS WERE HORRENDOUS AND COMPLETLY UNJUSTIFIED. BUT A FEW SET BACKS ARN'T GOING TO MAKE ME AND A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE DOUBT THE JUSTIFICATION IN BEARING ARMS IN ORDER TO GAIN FREEDOM.

I AGREE THAT NOTHING JUSTIFIES THE MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, BUT I SEE THE KILLING OF THE BRITISH SECURITY SERVICES AS JUSTIFIED, MAYBE NOT NOW IF THERE IS A CHANCE OF REUNIFICATION THROUGH PEACEFUL METHODS, BUT IF THERE ISNT THEN...

THE BOMBS AND THE BULLETS WERE NOT FUTILE, THATS WHAT BROUGHT DOWN SECTARIAN STORMONT. THATS WHAT BROUGHT THE BRITS TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

NOTHING WAS/IS EVER GOING TO MAKE THE UNIONISTS TRUST THE NATIONALIST. HOW CAN THEY - A NATIONALIST WANT THE REUNIFICATION OF IRELAND WHICH UNIONISTS ARE HELL-BENT ON PRESERVING THE UN LAWFUL UNION.

THE ONLY THING THAT I WANT IS THE FREEDOM FOR MY PEOPLE AND TO ESCAPE THE SHACKLES OF BRITSH IMPERIALISM WHICH WE HAVE BEEN FORCED UNDER FOR GOD KNOWS HOW LONG. IF THAT CAN BE ACHIEVED THROUGH PEACFUL MEANS THEN SO BE IT, BUT IF NOT THEN WAR IS THE ONLY OPTION.

SLAN
ADH MÓR ORT!

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If the world of the IRA, Charlie, "standing up for yourself" involves slaughtering non-combatants.

And the IRA chose to bomb civilian targets, *without* the support of the vast majority of nationalists north and south of the border.

This is the undeniable reality - you can agree with what the IRA did, but you can't seriously claim that they had the support of the majority of the community, or even a significant minority.

You can romanticise their actions into a war, but no-body on the planet outside the hard-core republican community thinks it was.

There are plenty of examples of former British colonies achieving independence without resorting to a terror campaign - the 6 counties could have achieved the same, but we'll never know because a small minority of extremists decided they had the right to murder for their political ends.

> these are the type of things that happen in a war

No, planting bombs in a shopping street are the type of things that IRA members decided to do, and which had predictable consequences - civilians were slaughtered.

I posted a question a few days ago here - what significant concession does the Good Friday agreement represent that hadn't already been conceeded by the British in the Sunningdale agreement in 1973? No suggestions yet. 35 years of slaughter by extremists who had no democratic support, and we've still got what the democratic politicians achieved three decades ago.

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Hi Charlie,

Notice how you can't come up with one single concession that the Provisional IRA have won from the British?

In every discussion about Northern Ireland, somebody eventually whines "What about what the British did?", as if that in some way justifies the IRA killing a 3 year old child in Warrington. It didn't.

The Provisional IRA are not the Old IRA - the Old IRA didn't slaughter civilians by bombing shopping streets.

Was the Ulster plantation a historical injustice? Yes.

HOwever, the plantation immigrants threw the Catholics off their land *400* years ago. Calling for their descendants to be repatriated is as absurd as calling for the 50 million Irish descendents in the USA and Australia to be repatriated to Ireland and give the land back to the native americans and aboriginals.

Again, it's plain historical fact that many countries evolved from British colonies into independent democracies without a terrorist campaign. I personally think we'd be closer to a unitary irish state today if the Provisional IRA hadn't slaughtered hundreds of civilians - that's just my opinion.

But we'll never know how it might have turned out, because a small group of extremists with no democratic mandate decided that they had the right to slaughter their political "enemies".

The Provisional IRA never had the support of the people of Ireland, the vast majority of whom are, and always were, revolted by the Provisional's actions.

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Hi Charlie,

You still can't name one thing the Provisional IRA has achieved, despite all the murders over the years.

And by the way, you *have* been talking about the Provisional IRA - see your posting regarding Margaret Thatcher, and bombing London, among others. That wasn't Michael Collins, you know.

<sarcasm alert> I'm happy to hear you're in favour of forced repatriation of the 1 million Unionists whose families have been in Ireland for 400 years. I assume that you'll be packing your bags for Norman France unless you can prove that you yourself have 100% pure celtic blood. Please provide DNA-test proof or purchase your RyanAir ticket.

I won't address your incorrect comments about the Israeli settlements or Australian convict immigration - I just don't have the time, and more importantly, couldn't be bothered!

As for intimidation from Orange Order marches, the UDA thugs, Loyalist Paramilitaries, and the sheer religious bigotry from certain unionists who just hate catholics - all that is undeniably true.

The question is - what is the best way to resolve this? A small group of extremists thought they had the right to bomb and murder civilians. But the Provisional IRA achieved nothing over 35 years apart from thousands of families losing fathers, sons, brothers, mothers, sisters, daughters.

The Provisional IRA weren't forced into it - Britain wasn't a fascist dictatorship state - there was always the democratic path - but they *choose* to kill for their political ends.

It's pointless slaughter for nothing in 2005, and it has been every year since they started in 1969.

And at no stage did the Provisional IRA have the support of the majority of the Irish People, or anything close to even a significant minority.

That was my final contribution - Regards and good luck.
James

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Charlie you seem like reasonable decent fellow after all ;)

Have a look here to find better debating - www.irish-nationalism.net

Turn off the caps why don't you. What are you - Ian Paisley?!

The IRA were, are, and will continue to be a necessary evil. I think bombings which take human life can never be condoned, yet I also think their cause is a valiant and just one.

Under the concept of a 'Just war' presented by the Catholic Church, the IRA have every moral right to take up arms. A cultural genocide, the British tried to eliminate an entire way of life, right down to language abnd religion. They tried to destroy a people into subservience. The IRA are fighting for what belongs to the Irish peoples'. They have a legitimate chance of victory. I would say that surrender is not an option for the Irish, whereas withdrawal (However large a blow it would deal to British pride) is a very real alternative. NI is now 45% Catholic. The land was taken from the Irish, 800 years of domination, and still treated as second class citizens. All this adds up to a "Just" cause.

As far as I'm concerned, the IRA did what anyone would have done under the circumstances, they fought back. Fire with fire. The British have a inane concept that they call 'Empire'. In reality the British Empire is nothing more than a few Pacific Isles and a half-dozen or so countries with very symbolic ties to the Crown. The North of Ireland is only under the British cloud today because of the pompous and arrogant nature of the powers-that-be in London.

The IRA itself uses/used terrorist tactics... but that doesn't make them terrorists. Think about it. Say you're a man in Bagdhad and the US invades. You don't understand what's happening other than the fact that you want foreign soldiers off your soil. What do you do? Do you pick up a 30 year old russian gun and meet the US soldiers in the field of battle? NO! You DO WHAT YOU CAN! You snipe from buildingtops. You assemble bombs. You move in the shadows. THIS IS THE NEW NATURE OF WAR. There will never be another WWI... seeing the enemy face-to-face is virtually obsolete. Guerilla warfare IS warfare from now on.

What were the IRA supposed to do? Outnumbered and outsupplied by the British... normal warfare and street battles would have been suicide. They did what they could do. They are fighting for a just cause, and a cause they'll die for. How many British soldiers are willing to die for six counties on an Island they're not even from?! Not too many I'm guessing. I'd say MOST IRA men wouldn't give it a second thought if their own death meant a unified Ireland. They'd do it no question.

ps I'm neither Irish nor English, Im Australian... I've been to both countries, met both peoples and studied the situation at University. My background is Italian.

pps The bit in this movie where Brad Pitt shoots out the guys kneecap... OUCH!

You need to learn a bit of history there alastairward. If it wasn't for the (p)IRA, there wouldn't even be municiple home rule. Raise tensions? ARE YOU CRAZY, when the IRA stopped doing anything in the late 60s the tensions, the riots the violence against Catholics was at its worst, and now that the provos have disarmed guess what happened WORST RIOTS IN 10 YEARS. The IRA were the only thing keeping the loyalists from open violence. Now that the IRA disarmed the loyalist paramiltaries stopped even faking to be on ceasefire. I'm not defending many recent IRA tactics, but clearly as a whole the IRA is nessicary as long as loyalists feel the need to attack Catholics. T

he guerilla warfare practised by the IRA was designed to
1. kill RUC (because they were basicly a state-sponsered loyalist paramilitary)

2. kill British Army (in order to get there families to demand for them to come home, this was only an official policy after bloody sunday and the british army were designated a main target instead of just people in the way)
3. make the 6 counties ungovernable (this is were 'terrorism' tactics were used, the purpose of these are to force the british govt/6 counties govt to negotiate, england was attacked when sinn fein started negotiating because they stopped caring about NI, these have been the most successful in forcing the NI govt and British govt to comprimise, free derry, although not alone, got municiple home rule, and some basic voting rights, attacks on civilians on England forced the british govt the the table etc).

From: charliebaileygates (Sun Jun 19 2005 13:54:22 )
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"As for the agreement itself it basically states that the Rep of Ireland will give up its right to NI and in exchange should the majority ever vote for a united Ireland thats what will happen. Something like that never would have been agreed upon by unionists ever without everything that has gone before."

The 'constitution' of Northern Ireland: the Government of Ireland Act (1922) states categorically that, Northern Ireland shall remain a part of the United Kingdom for as long as the people of Northern Ireland wish it.

The Good Friday Agreement merely re-stated that.

The Unionists weren't stupid. Ian Paisley was. He split the Unionists and played to their paranoia.


"Especially since its more like 750,000 unionists and shrinking in comparison to Catholics all the time."

More like 900,000. And, as the 2001 Census clearly showed, the Roman Catholic birth rate has dropped steadily since 1921. It is now very close to the national average, and to the birth rate of the various Protestant peoples.

Added to that is the fact that roughly one in three Roman Catholics in NI desire to remain in the United Kingdom, despite the particular political party they vote for during local and national elections. Opinion polls over the years have shown this. The lowest percentage of Roman Catholics I have seen that responded that they would desire NI to remain part of the UK, was 20%. The highest figures have been 29%, 30% and 32%.

In contrast, the highest percentage of Protestants that say they favour splitting from the UK and joining with the Republic of Ireland, was 8%. Its usually closer to 2%.


"Also if you read what I said above the problem is not with those people being there or not having 100% celtic blood as you put it.Its with their insistance that a part of our country remain under British control which is all the more strange since Britain don't even want them."

I don't understand what you're saying here. Britain is an island - not a political entity. Please explain further.


"My point was that for a long time the IRA was both necessary and supported."

While the IRA was never "necessary".. unless you are talking about 1916, when it was a different world.. it was certainly supported. Especially after Bloody Sunday.


"Britain put people in a position where this was the only option.Thats pretty poor on their part."

Again - Britain is an island. How was that island capable of putting anyone in any "position"?

People who desired a United Ireland always had choice: they could vote for the Nationalist Party.


"The unionists are just not giving up even though they know they should."

Give up what? Their political ideology? Why should they give that up? Why are you not asking the Republicans or nationalists to give up their political ideology. What you are saying is completely illogical.

Should the Democrats or the Republican Party in the USA give up their political ideologies? Should Labour or the Conservative Party give up their political ideologies?

What I know, as a unionist, is that I should endeavour to NOT give up. I will continue to support the Union through democratic means.

"The country should be re-united by right"

Why? Ireland was never united EVER, until it was added to the Union in 1801. The closest Ireland ever came to being one single entity - one country - was when Brian Boru united most of the tribes and clans against the Vikings around the year 1000 AD... around the time of the Battle of Hastings.

The people in Northern Ireland don't want to split from the United Kingdom. Do you simply disregard THEIR right?

"and the unionists have to realise they are in Ireland."

Eh?

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by - sbhoju (Thu Sep 15 2005 07:24:41 )
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"The IRA were, are, and will continue to be a necessary evil. I think bombings which take human life can never be condoned, yet I also think their cause is a valiant and just one."

By that logic, the cause of the UVF and the UDA is also a valiant and just one.

The IRA are NOT "necessary", and you'll find that the overwhelming majority of people in Northern Ireland agree with that sentiment. That is the reason they have stopped their bombing campaign and, apparently, decommissioned their weapons.


"Under the concept of a 'Just war' presented by the Catholic Church, the IRA have every moral right to take up arms."

No - they don't.


"A cultural genocide, the British tried to eliminate an entire way of life, right down to language abnd religion. They tried to destroy a people into subservience."

Two wrongs do not make a right. That is exactly what the IRA have been trying to do for the past 35 years.


"The IRA are fighting for what belongs to the Irish peoples'."

As an Irish person, I have what belongs to me, thanks.


"They have a legitimate chance of victory."

They have no hope.


"I would say that surrender is not an option for the Irish,"

"The Irish"? The vast majority of us don't want ANY fighting. There is no reason for surrender because we are not at war.


"whereas withdrawal (However large a blow it would deal to British pride) is a very real alternative."

I doubt very much that you'll get the Irish people to withdraw!


"NI is now 45% Catholic."

40.3% actually. The 2001 Census put the figure at somewhere around 43% - by religious *background*.


"The land was taken from the Irish, 800 years of domination, and still treated as second class citizens. All this adds up to a "Just" cause."

Actually, the land was taken from the Irish by the Gaels - nearly 2,000 years of domination.


"As far as I'm concerned, the IRA did what anyone would have done under the circumstances, they fought back. Fire with fire."

... so that obviously makes it OK, in your mind, that the UVF and the UDA also "fight back".


"The British have a inane concept that they call 'Empire'."

There is no British Empire any more. There is the United Kingdom, and there is the Commonwealth.

"The North of Ireland is only under the British cloud today because of the pompous and arrogant nature of the powers-that-be in London."

No - it is British because that's the way the people of Northern Ireland want it.


"The IRA itself uses/used terrorist tactics... but that doesn't make them terrorists. Think about it."

I've thought about it all my life here in Northern Ireland. They are terrorists.


"Say you're a man in Bagdhad and the US invades. You don't understand what's happening other than the fact that you want foreign soldiers off your soil. What do you do? Do you pick up a 30 year old russian gun and meet the US soldiers in the field of battle? NO! You DO WHAT YOU CAN! You snipe from buildingtops. You assemble bombs. You move in the shadows. THIS IS THE NEW NATURE OF WAR. There will never be another WWI... seeing the enemy face-to-face is virtually obsolete. Guerilla warfare IS warfare from now on."

Again - by your reckoning, the UVF and the UDA are also not terrorists. They are merely defending their territory.


"They are fighting for a just cause, and a cause they'll die for."

Let's hope they do just that then - die.


"How many British soldiers are willing to die for six counties on an Island they're not even from?! Not too many I'm guessing."

1,111 members of the security forces - 753 of them in the British Army, from the year 1969 until the year 2001, have given their lives to protect the people of Northern Ireland.


"I'd say MOST IRA men wouldn't give it a second thought if their own death meant a unified Ireland. They'd do it no question."

The definition of a fanatic.


"ps I'm neither Irish nor English, Im Australian... I've been to both countries, met both peoples and studied the situation at University. My background is Italian."

You need to study more then.

"pps The bit in this movie where Brad Pitt shoots out the guys kneecap... OUCH!"

Think about that then. The Provisional IRA have killed more Roman Catholics than any other organisation since the Troubles began. They also torture and murder Irish people. Their favourite method of 'punishment' was kneecapping. This varied from smashing peoples' kneecaps to a pulp with spiked clubs, to shooting out the kneecap (from behind, as the exit wound is usually larger than the entry wound). Their latest method of punishment was coined "Crucifixion" - they would lay out their victims on their own lawn, like Christ on the cross, and put bullets through their wrists and ankles.

Nothing "valiant" or "just" about it.

THAT is the reality of your precious Provisional IRA.

im going to be blunt here an i hope i dont offend anyone but here it goes.i dont think anyone in the ROI has the right to have a go at catholics in the north who feel angry about the british.its ok for you lot cos your 3 generations free from the british but the people in the north got a raw deal.now the facts are this simple,northern ireland isnt british and the soldiers and the goverment have no right to be there,give it back to ireland so the country can be united again.irish state with irish law,thats the only solution for peace.jesus is it fair that people who are native to the north should have to campaign for equal rights in thier own country against settlers who arnt even irish,and a protestant goverment that protects these invaders.i know what some of you are thinking,that this is the year 2006 and my opinion is dated.well it is 2006 so do the right thing and give it back,the british had there day let the irish have theres.and in responce to the main question i think the IRA arnt terrorists there just want back whats thiers.its easy to call the IRA terrorists cos they dont have the convience of having the tax payer pay for the army like the british.

michael collins
bobby sands

there the names of true patriots and martyrs

Michael Collins? Would this be the Michael Collins that was killed by the IRA?

To carcass65
"im going to be blunt here an i hope i dont offend anyone but here it goes.i dont think anyone in the ROI has the right to have a go at catholics in the north who feel angry about the british.its ok for you lot cos your 3 generations free from the british but the people in the north got a raw deal."

On the contrary - I think we got the best part of the deal. :)


"now the facts are this simple,northern ireland isnt british"

Whoa .. hang on there Tex! Northern Ireland is, in fact, British. It is part of the United Kingdom. The taxes collected from its people go to the British Exchequer. In return, we get loads of money pumped into our economy, as well as the other rights afforded to citizens of the other three constituent countries (England, Scotland and Wales), such as road maintenence, free health care, social services etc.


"and the soldiers and the goverment have no right to be there,"
Actually, according to the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, our government has every right to be here. Our soldiers also, as an extension of that government, have every right to be here to help protect its citizens - be they Roman Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Athiest or Satanist.


"give it back to ireland so the country can be united again."
In which century was Ireland ever 'united' as a consolidated country with its own government structure please?

If you can answer that, I might be persuaded to let you join us 'again'.


"irish state with irish law,thats the only solution for peace."
I'm not too sure about that. In fact, thinking about it logically, that would probably be the worst case scenario in term of desiring peace just at the minute.

Let's extend your scenario: We'll assume that by "Irish state with Irish law" you mean Irish republic state and law, to the exclusion of British state and law.

OK, so let's also ignore the fact that the Republic of Ireland will have swollen in terms of population by 150% or so (pop of Republic = ~4 million; pop of Northern Ireland = ~ 1.7 million), and with very little extra in the way of natural resources.

We'll also ignore the fact that, as economically successful as the Republic of Ireland has been over the last ten years or so (and good on 'em!) they are in no way in the same league as the United Kingdom, which has the 4th or 5th largest economy in the world. We'll ignore the fact that this would lead to increased poverty, and an increased pverty gap, which would lead to restlessness just like we had that the end of the 1960s in NI.

We'll ignore the fact that, ever since the last industrial revolution, combined with the damage the IRA campaign has done to foriegn investment and business, and added to the fact that NI has no natural resources other than land and manpower.. we'll ignore that there would be such a drain on the economy of this new 32-county state ON TOP of the fact that the population has suddenly swollen by 150%.

Let's consdier the people themselves - thrown into a 32-county state: Around one million of them (probably 600-700 thousand adults) would have been thrown into a state that they DON'T WANT via an UNDEMOCRATIC process! Do you really want to examine what their reaction would be to that?

Let's take your own arguments that you make in your last paragraph: We'll assume that support for the UVF has swollen under these circumstances.

And the UVF "aren't terrorists" - they "just want back what's theirs"!

You, my friend, appear to want to exhange one percieved nightmare with a very real nightmare.


"jesus is it fair that people who are native to the north should have to campaign for equal rights in thier own country"
I don't have to campaign for equal rights in my native land: I've already got the most rigidly policed (policed as in policies by the way) civil rights protection in thw western world.


"against settlers who arnt even irish"
Against who..? Who are these settlers who "aren't even Irish" that you're talking about?

"and a protestant goverment that protects these invaders."
Where is this "protestant government" that you speak of? Are you talking about another country now..?


"i know what some of you are thinking,that this is the year 2006 and my opinion is dated.well it is 2006 so do the right thing and give it back,the british had there day let the irish have theres."
Being both British and Irish, I have not only my day, but my decade and my lifetime too. Thanks for your concern though.


"and in responce to the main question i think the IRA arnt terrorists there just want back whats thiers."
You won't mind then if the UVF murder a member of your family presumably? After all, they are just protecting what's theirs.

"its easy to call the IRA terrorists cos they dont have the convience of having the tax payer pay for the army like the british."

Its easy to call them terrorists because they are a minority of fanatics who refused for so long to enter into democratic process and instead decided to murder people in order to bring attention to the concerns they had.

Don't get me wrong: people had genuine concerns in the past. But that is no reason to murder so many innocent people.

so uneducated. The land you call Ulster will one day be reunited. Catholic birthrates are soaring. I mean I know the Brits in the Six Counties outnumber Republicans now (thanks to the Famine, in which not a single Catholic was helped by the fascists) An Irishman assisting Brit military is a traitor.

Tiocfaidh Ar La

navykurt:

"have you looked at a map lately? n.i. is most definately on the island of ireland and not britian."

Have you looked at a map recently? Northern Ireland is definitely a part of the United Kingdom and not of the Republic of Ireland.

While we're at it, Canada is in America. As is Mexico. Zambia is in Africa.


"I am a meat popsicle."

Indeed.


Better_Red_Than_Dead:

"In response to the OP. I'm a supporter of the I.R.A.

Tiocfaidh ár lá"

Your day has been and gone.


oicasualtiesoioi:
"so uneducated. The land you call Ulster will one day be reunited."

So.. like the United Republic of Ulster then, yeah? So glad you are able to tell me the future like this, what with your education and all that.


"Catholic birthrates are soaring."

Actually, they're slowing down and normalising. Take a look at the statistics some time.


"I mean I know the Brits in the Six Counties outnumber Republicans now (thanks to the Famine, in which not a single Catholic was helped by the fascists) An Irishman assisting Brit military is a traitor."

There's few things inaccurate about the above.. which I'm surprised at, considering you had seemed so judgemental about others' education. To start with, the number of "Brits" in Northern Ireland outnumbers the Republicans because the Republicans are a subset of the "Brits". Whether they like it or not (and they don't), Republicans born in Northern Ireland to Northern Irish parents are actually British.

As for the Famine, plenty of Roman Catholics were helped by charitable organisations and bodies such as the Quakers (who asked nothing in return for their aid). The British Queen, at the time, gave the largest charitable donation known to have been given by any head of state up until that time.

They also helped starving Protestants.

I worked out (a while ago now), given the current birth rates, when there might be a chance that pro-nationalists community might out-number pro-unionists in Northern Ireland... assuming that political ideologies continue to be split roughly along the lines they are now. About a fifth to a third of all Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland are pro-union. About 2% to 8% of all Protestants in Northern Ireland are pro-nationalist. I was generous to the nationalist side because I wanted to work out the earliest possibility. I came to the conclusion, given the parameters above, that it would be some 200 years hence.

I guess you'll be waiting a long time for your United Federation of Ulster or whatever!

carcass65:

"now the facts are this simple,northern ireland isnt british"

I'm afraid I have to inform you that you've got your facts wrong. Northern Ireland is, in fact, British. It is a part of the United Kingdom.


"and the soldiers and the goverment have no right to be there"

The soldiers and government have every right to be here. It was ratified by international agreement, more than once. The latest was by the Belfast Agreement in 1998.

"give it back to ireland so the country can be united again."

Ireland's already got it. You see, Northern Ireland is in the island of Ireland. If you want the country to be united "again", I certainly have no problem with the Republic of Ireland re-joining the UK.


"jesus is it fair that people who are native to the north should have to campaign for equal rights in thier own country against settlers who arnt even irish,and a protestant goverment that protects these invaders."

Who are these "settlers who aren't even Irish"? What is this "Protestant government" you speak of? Who are these "native to the north" and these "invaders"? I think you may have to brush up on your history!


"well it is 2006 so do the right thing and give it back,the british had there day let the irish have theres."

We have it, thanks. And we've got it. There's nobody to "give it back" to.


"and in responce to the main question i think the IRA arnt terrorists there just want back whats thiers. its easy to call the IRA terrorists cos they dont have the convience of having the tax payer pay for the army like the british."

No - it's easy to call the IRA terrorists because when they didn't get what they wanted, so they maimed, killed and destroyed. That's terrorism for you.

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