MovieChat Forums > A Time to Kill (1996) Discussion > He should of still gone to prison

He should of still gone to prison


No matter how badly someone wrongs you, you should NEVER take the law into your own hands. This film just glorifies vigilantism by giving one extreme example.

There are plenty of other examples of vigilantism that ended up tragically for the "bad guys" because the vigilantis heard wrong or ended up maiming or killing the wrong person. We have laws and justice to protect us and must always be obeyed at all times, and not just when we choose too.

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I agree with everything you say, my friend. Unfortunately, there are some barbarians hannging around this board who have never taken a Government class and spew at anybody who thinks what Carl Lee did was wrong.

Just a heads up.

"What I want to know is how we're going to stay alive this winter."

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Barbarians, that's hilarious. I think what Carl Lee did was absolutely right, and I would have done the same thing or worse to those two aszholes. And I'm no barbarian.

The law isn't always right, and the Government is nowhere near prepared to deal with such extreme cases as this one. They are way too soft, like you guys.

So sometimes it IS necessary to take the law into your own hands. Just because the law says it's wrong, doesn't mean it actually is wrong.

"never taken a Government course"

Because we're all missing the great enlightenment that would have given us, eh? Fu|ckin' hilarious.

I'm sure you guys have never driven 52 in the 50 zone or never smoked pot or anything like that either, right? Because if you have, you are hypocrites.

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What Carl Lee did was 1st degree, premeditated murder. There's no blurry lines here. He got a rifle, broke into the courthouse, hid in a closet and waited - like a hunter.

Would I have done what he did in the same situation? Yes, although I think I would have waited longer to see how it played out in court. Everyone assumes those 2 animals would have gotten off. There was way too much physical evidence for that to happen.

Would I expect a jury to find me not guilty of murder? No, I would fully expect to go to prison for my actions. I would expect a lighter sentence than your normal murder because of the extenuating circumstances. But I would expect to do hard time because this wasn't temporary (or any kind of) insanity. This was a father exacting revenge for his daughter.



Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a f### how crazy they are!

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Yeah, the legal system cannot work if people take laws into their own hands, especially before the system even gets to play itself out. However, in real life it would be insane to charge him with first degree murder and expect a jury to sentence him to death. He's way too sympathetic of a defendant and no jury would sentence a man who killed his daughter's rapists to death.

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Everyone assumes those 2 animals would have gotten off. There was way too much physical evidence for that to happen

yeah it was an abuntant of physical evidence in that '63 church bombing but those animals walked free.

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Yeah, and the 1963 church bombing was just then, 1963. The South has changed since then, despite the stereotypes of it portrayed in popular culture, such as in this movie.

"Ninja monkeys are meeting as we speak, plotting my demise."

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I read this book in '92/'93. The Firm had already been made into a movie, which means this book had been out quite a while since it was written first, and I believe that in an interview Grisham said he got the idea from an actual case. The IDEA, mind you, not 'this is based upon an actual case'. Considering what is going on right now, in 2015 between the police and Black men and society? I can TOTALLY see those animals getting off or just a slap on the wrist. Anyone who thinks it was not a reasonable possibility needs to get on their unicorn and follow the rainbow to lala land where everything is happiness and sunshine.

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"What Carl Lee did was 1st degree, premeditated murder."

It was also fair, and appropriate treatment of those wastes of space.

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You're scum.

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Very well said.....I would also like to ask the OP if they would feel so (law abiding) if it was in fact their child it happened to???

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Irrelevant. If something happened to your child, there are two choices.
1. Do not go vigilante because you fear prison.
2. Go vigilante, in which case you would fully expect to go to prison.

There is no third choice:
3. Go vigilante, cripple a cop, and kill two men robbed of due process because you just assume the trial won't be fair...but you morally did the right thing so instead of prison, you just end up having a big multi-racial barbecue so the healing can begin.

Seriously, that was vomit-inducing.

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What Carl Lee did was 1st degree, premeditated murder


I found the movie rather ridiculous and over top. Of course he should been charged with manslaughter. But the closing statement where he painted the picture of this little girl actually made me see how the guy, even if he premeditated his plan, could be so mad with rage, that reason goes out the window.
Especially because he didn't wait until after the trial (which would have been an ordeal for the little kid too), or killed them after they got out of prison in a few years time. He shot them in a courthouse! It made no sense! He wasn't a stupid guy, he was able to think and plan, but the rape of his daughter drove him temporarily insane until justice was served. Is that so hard to imagine that you aren't your normal rational self after something like this? It doesn't really matter that he waited in the courthouse during the night, fits of rage can last that long, he was in a state of mind that made him not fully accountable for his actions.

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[deleted]

Laws are made by men, not by God, therefore they're not infallible. All you have to do is look at the world history, slavery, human sacrifices, witch hunts, etc.




Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel

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Our corrupted from the inception of the republic Federal Government may not be adequately prepared since that institution no longer makes even a pretense of being guided by the Constitution.

However, the constitutional doctrine of "Jury Nullification" allows for a technically guilty man to escape punishment if in the eyes of the jury that outcome would serve justice.

This viewer would not have provided Carl Lee with an insanity defense because he certainly was sane but what he did was to commit a crime of passion which in certain instances would call for Jury Nullification.

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Yeah, because smoking pot and driving two miles an hour over the speed limit is right on par with killing two people and blowing the leg off of a LEO. What an idiot. That you champion taking the law into your own hands shows that you have no clue what America stands for or what it means to be an American. Please, leave the country.

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it wasn't carl lee decision it was up to a jury. so blame lawyers and if you would have killed those clowns for what they did you are a whimp

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LOL

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Yeah right, the "barbarian" is the guy who kills two kiddie rapists, and not the inbred redneck *beep* who rapes and try to kill a 10 yo girl..

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Oh please,if you do something like that,then you BELONG to that family.Simple as.

Carl Lee was a hero for ridding the earth of that scum.

Wentworth Miller I'm here...(over here sexy)

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The starter of this post must not have children. I think all people who commit child crimes should be gunned down. I think they lose all their human rights once they violate a child. Of course, this is just my opinion.

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well your opinion is shared by many.

Wentworth Miller I'm here...(over here sexy)

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"The starter of this post must not have children. I think all people who commit child crimes should be gunned down. I think they lose all their human rights once they violate a child. Of course, this is just my opinion."

Agreed. And I think anyone who disagrees with you should be forcibly sterilized. SERIOUSLY! I am NOT joking!!!

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I agree too. Those two punks had it coming. What Carl Lee did was still wrong by law, I feel that he was morally right. I was upset when the one cop was left without a leg, but honestly who wouldn't have done what Carl Lee did? I know I definitely would have.

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Isn't death as punishment for a crime where no death was involved overkill?

The daughter survived. To quote a less emotionally manipulative film, to kill his daughter's attackers when she herself had not died is not justice. It's just vengeance.

Now, I admit, those monsters did everything they could to ensure she would die, and her survival was a miracle, so probably they did get what they deserved from a moral standpoint. But too many people tend to cry for death as a punishment for sexual crimes where the attacker never wants to kill his or her victim.

"I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?"

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"Not justice. It's just vengeance."

It's both.

It's not the point that the victim survived. The point is that what those two monsters did to her was outrageous. I don't care what the attacker "wants". They shouldn't be attacking. Period. The attack is what earns them death. And rightly so.

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If you insist. But keep in mind that by killing the rapists, he is taking from them the one they didn't take from her: life. They deserve to have their dignity and their freedom taken away, but not their lives.

That is my point. I don't believe that it is justice to do worse to the criminals than they did to their victim(s). You clearly do. Suit yourself.

Of course, I have no children (nor do I plan to), so maybe I just don't understand what parents in these situations go through. But I'm also not a racist child molester. I am thus in a position to be totally neutral in such a case, and approach the situation unemotionally. And I find that aside from Carl Lee's daughter there are no innocents in this situation. Her attackers are blatantly guilty, but so is her father.

I'm in an odd position. On the one hand I don't necessarily believe the rapists deserved to die. My rationale for this has already been given. But, at the same time, despite not being a father myself, I can at least imagine Carl Lee's pain and grief. Thus, I accept that what he did is the reaction any parent who loved their children would have. Someone hurts their child, they, as a parent, feel the need to protect and avenge the child.

But I hold that understandable isn't the same as justifiable, legally or morally. Carl Lee still committed a crime by taking the law into his own hands and killing two unarmed men, and wounding a third accidentally. Whether they deserved it or not is beside the point here. Which is something the movie tries its best to gloss over, but doesn't successfully do despite Carl Lee being found not guilty.

The question isn't whether what Carl Lee did was understandable. It was whether it was justified. And in the manner the movie presents it to us, I believe it was not. He guilty of exactly what they said he was.

I feel the movie handled it wrong.

What should've happened is a racist judge and jury found them not guilty, then Carl Lee goes nuts with rage and grief and kills them in revenge after his faith in unbiased justice is shaken. Carl Lee's decision to retaliate against them would've been more justifiable to me. The system wrongs him and denies his daughter justice, and he snaps. Probably guns them down on the courthouse steps. In addition to being understandable, this would've been justifiable, as the court is clearly corrupt and the trial is a sham; by trying to avoid their punishment and being given special treatment by a biased court, the rapists thus forfeit their right to be tried fairly.

But this didn't happen. It jumps the gun and has Carl Lee kill the rapists before the trial has even commenced. While they're on their way to it, in fact. Carl Lee never gave them a chance to even be rightly found guilty by a jury of their peers. Doing what he did after they'd been found not guilty I could've found just.

"I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?"

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It's not like it was nice of them that they didn't kill her. They tried to.

I understand your point about the court case. It probably should have been allowed to finish. But now that it wasn't, I don't give a rat's ass what the rapists lost. Good riddance. If it was my decision, the case would have been closed as soon as those pieces of shĂŻt were killed. I would have gone straight to dealing with the accidental shooting of the cop.

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Overkill? How so? Also look up the Ryan Diviney beating case. This guy was brutally beaten into a coma, and can never bath, walk, or even care for himself anymore. I'd be very comfortable if his attackers were put to death. So yes if it's a non murder crime, DEATH IS A PERFECT PUNISHMENT DEPENDING ON THE NATURE OF THE CRIME!!

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Don't get so hung up on sympathy for those two worthless pieces of trash that you forget what happened to the child. What could possibly be exciting about a little girl, to two grown men?

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I didn't care for the ending either. I felt McConnaghey (however you spell it) was being like Cochran a year before and trying to fool the jury with that stupid story. I wouldn't have fallen for it.

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That stupid story as you put it is based on FACT.The south was/is depending on your perspective a racist haven and he wouldn't have gotten a fair trial.What McConnaghey said was true and it did the job.

formerly kuchii tee hee

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Well, I was being sarcastic with the word stupid there. He was taking what happened to Carl Lee's daughter and making the jury imagine it was a white girl that was attacked. Personally, it was just a ploy that I'm surprised Spacey's character didn't object to. I would've since it is jury nullification. He probably thought they wouldn't be so stupid as to fall for it.

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He should have gotten a "guilty"-verdict and a (short) prison sentence as a signal that you can't take the law into your own hands. But since a "guilty"-verdict in the USA would have meant a death sentence, I can live with "not guilty".

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I agree Carl Lee should have gotten some kind of jail time. He killed two men in cold blood reguardless of the reason for doing it. I disagree that a guily verdict would have been a death sentence. There would have been a sentence hearing and the jury could have given him whatever the minimum sentence for murder was.

My other concern here is that at the end of the movie, they show Carl Lee having a barbeque at his house - an apparent free man. In my mind he still has to stand trial for assaulting a police officer. He blew a man's leg off and it's completely separate from the murder trial. And I'll guarantee he does time for that. He didn't have any money, so I don't see how he made bail. Anyone have an opinion on this? Can anyone who read the book shed some light here.

Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a f### how crazy they are!

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He did get some jail time. You can see he's in prison for most of the movie, while awaiting his hearing. However long it was, a week, a month, several months, whatever, it was definitely long enough. He shouldn't have stayed in prison any longer than that. He suffered enough with what happened to his daughter anyway.

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[deleted]

Evil murderer, give me a break. Not an actual opinion, just a sh!t disturber. Sarcasm designed to get a rise out of everybody. Grow up.

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He MURDERED two men. In reality he would have been jailed for life, and rightly so.

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No.

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Yes, he would, because he was a MURDERER who killed two unarmed men and wounded a police officer. The law would have still prosecuted him for that even if the officer didn't want to press charges. What a stupid movie.

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Unarmed, that doesn't matter. They should have kept their grimy hands off his daughter. They did it to themselves. Carl Lee just delivered what they ordered. REAL decision-makers would know this. And a jury would be sympathetic to that. That's why we have juries. So it's not just one flamer casting him down when he doesn't really deserve ANY harsh treatment for doing the world a huge favor.

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Nope. They should have been tried in a court of law, not MURDERED by some mental loser with guns.

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What about the two aszholes just keeping their hands to themselves? What's wrong with that? They did it to themselves.

Also, upcasing the 'murdered' doesn't make your arguments any stronger, or even strong for that matter. Not convincing.

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Nope, they should have been tried in a court of law and then jailed.

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[deleted]

They did it to themselves.

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No. Murder is never justified. I'm not saying that if somebody raped my daughter I wouldn't feel loike killing him, but if I did then I would certainly expect to go to prison. In Britain Jimmy Mitzen was stabbed to death by a 19-year-old black man on his 16th birthday, and his mother publicly forgave his murderer before he was jailed. That is the correct response.

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They weren't murdered. They got themselves killed. Like when you shoot at a police officer or jump in front of a speeding car. No different.

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No, they were murdered, and by the way Carl also shot a police officer, for which in reality he would have been tried separately.

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Like I said, grow up. You think responding every time with "no, they were murdered" helps your case? It's not the last word that wins, it's the right word. So being the last one to post doesn't make you right. The FACT is, they did it to themselves. No eager response from you after this one is going to change that FACT.

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[deleted]

LOL

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juany tends to side with child rapists anyway.

"Howdy, Bub"

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He he, obviously. That's pretty much the only reason to argue against the righteous guy. Juan seems to think child rapists are a swell bunch of guys. We just have to grow to understand them, I guess. LOL

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I believe it isn't Murder, technically, but Voluntary Manslaughter, which means that in certain instances, a jury might agree that an average person in their right mind would be driven to kill under the circumstances they deem to be understandable (legal terminology certainly defines that more clearly). It's called provocation--meaning he was understandably provoked to commit the crime and his culpability would be a lesser offense than that of murder.

In the case in this movie, I'd say that fits perfectly. The situation is one that most of us agree was ugly enough that we would probably do the same thing. A jury would be free to come to the same conclusion as long as it is agreed that the circumstance was an understandable provocation and that the state of mind of the killer was deemed to be only temporary (meaning they haven't become a killer, per se, just provoked to this solitary act, then, presumably, would recover eventually and return to a normal state of mind).

SO: Not murder, but Voluntary Manslaughter.

Any human that kills another human with full knowledge beforehand that their actions will result in the other person's death is still UNLAWFUL no matter how understandable it is.

Therefore, even if he is not convicted of murder, he most definitely should have been found guilty of the lesser offense of manslaughter and done sufficient jail time after the trial.

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Yes, the correct response is completely and totally forgive someone who won't appreciate that forgiveness; whilst you live on for the rest of your life with a scar that haunts you. Right?

You know...you are...a bit stupid.

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"Nope. They should have been tried in a court of law, not MURDERED by some mental loser with guns."

Racist!

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Murder only applies in the killing of humans, since these two weren't human it wasn't murder

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I thought this all the way through the film. However, whilst I agree with every principle outlined above, the movie does highlight, constantly, that the deciding factor in determining the Defendant's guilt or lack thereof was the 'insanity plea'. However, in English Law anyway, I believe that a plea of insanity would still result in some form of detention.

I would say, however, that as poignant as the closing statement by the defence was, it did not directly address the issue of the insanity plea and instead opted for the emotionally charged route that would have the audience reeling. It did of course do this to brilliant effect but I can't see how that impacts upon the ruling in any way.

Anyway, the movie is more about McConaughey's character's need for redemption I think.

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I don't think that what he did was right, I mean what gives us the right to say who dies and who doesn't.However I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing if I was him and I don't think he should have gone to prison.

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This thread got a little out of control. I think we can all agree there are two sides to the murder/not murder and jail/no jail issues with Carl Lee and the hill billy boys. So as the movie went, Carl Lee was found not guilty of murder and set free. That's the movie and we can't change that outcome.

My question is why Carl Lee wasn't prosecuted for shooting Deputy Looney and should he have been? I contend that he should have been prosecuted, found guilty of assault on a police officer and given jail time. Whether he was insane or not or justified in his actions toward the rapists, his actions caused a police officer to lose his leg. What are everyone's thoughts on this?



Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a f### how crazy they are!

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Even if the officer didn't want to press charges trhe law would still have prosecuted Carl Lee.

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[deleted]

Shut up you braindead moron.

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your mother SHOULD HAVE GONE TO PRISON for having you. :D

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I like that. Actually, she did. She had to take care of him for 18 years!!!!!!!!!!!!

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lmao!!!

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These men raped her, threw full beer cans at a nine year old girl, urine on her, hung her from a tree, and when that didn't work they threw her in the back of their pickup truck and threw her off a bridge like some kind of animal. All while she was screaming for help and yelling for her daddy. I think I can pretty much say the killing of these two men was justified, and I would have done the same thing, and wouldn't care if I went to prison or not. However if I was on the jury my vote would have been 100% NOT GUILTY. Men like that or anyone that would cause harm to a child deserve to burn in hell.

**Who ordered the burger with Aids???**Lafayette

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Not condoning what those 2 scum did, that poor girl would have lived with that memory like it was yesterday for the rest of her life.

Not saying I would not be angry or impulsed to do what Carl Lee did but it is vigilante justice and the fact that someone committed a crime to your family days earlier is not grounds for murder. Had those 2 been tried in a court of law, I don't believe rape itself is subject to the death penalty is it? (I think it should be but it's not) so even with a fair trial, those 2 get a long prison sentence but do not get killed.

The verdict does not have to be guilty of first degree murder or not guilty. In reality because of the motive for the murder, the appropriate verdict should have been guilty of second degree murder (probably not manslaughter due to the use of rifles).

Just imagine the precedence a not-guilty verdict would set if this was your town; basically it is okay to take the law within your own hands.

check out my site: http://www.kwrentagoalie.com/forums/index.php

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[deleted]