It seems clear that the major characters are based loosely on Carole King, Phil Spector and Brian Wilson. Now, King is Jewish, but her character is rich WASP. Spector is Jewish, but his character is Italian. Brian Wilson's wife (probably ex-wife by now) was Jewish (I can't think of her name). I just wonder why this was done, when so many people in the pop music business are Jewish. Being Jewish myself, this is a bit puzzling and offensive to me.
I do see your point, but the movie was just INSPIRED by real characters, not entirely based upon them. And one character in the movie could be based upon more than one person in real life.
shareOne of my best friends is Italian (from Vicenza) AND Jewish. How come you automatically assume because a character is Italian, he can't be Jewish?
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Certainly, one may be both Jewish and Italian, such as the mother of my best friend. But the vast majority of American Jews have ancestors from Eastern Europe -- and relatively few Italian people are Jewish.
There were (and still are) a LOT of Jewish people in pop music. Take the Brill Building itself -- Brill is generally a Jewish name. And the Kelly Porter character -- the young pop singer with the big hair -- was obviously based on Leslie Gore (who is, in RL, openly Jewish and lesbian).
It just seemed to me that the film makers were deliberately playing it down. Maybe I'm being over-sensitive here, but that's just what I think.
And in fact, Joel says he's half Jewish and half Italian from New Jersey.
S.
Mort,
Wow!, that's the first time in I can't remember how long that I've actually seen someone write the name Vicenza, a lovely little city at the foothills of the Dolomites, where I spent four of the most memorable years of my life in the '70s. Oh, and by the way, I too had some Italian Jewish friends there.
I just had to post a response.
Ciao, e buon auguri
The manager in the movie is called Joel Millner. Isn't Millner actually a JEWISH name?
E.g. mentioned as a typical Jewish surname here:
http://www.geocities.com/eladler/turku.htm
I think Joel Millner is a Jew(or half Jew) and John Turturro 'is Jewish' in this movie (even if his Italian-american)... Besides isn't it possible that not only Jewish artists were writing songs at that time? Important for movie like this (in which action takes place in special realty like about 1960 and that is essential) is are characters credible or not... And for me story is possible so it is good.
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Brian Wilson's former wife, Marilyn Rovell is Jewish. She was a member of the '60s girl group called THE HONEYS (Brian came up with the name because he produced the group. They were was supposed to be a female version of the Beach Boys). She is the mother of Wendy and Carnage Wilson. They divorced in the late '60s or early '70s. Back in the '60s, all of the major husband/wife songwriters were (are) Jewish: Jeff Barry/Ellie Greenwich, Carole King/Gerry Goffin, Barry Mann/Cynthia Weil. Of the three couples, only Mann and Weil remain married. The other couples divorced in the late '60s. Some say that GRACE OF MY HEART was based on Carole King. It could have been based on Ellie Greenwich. She went through the same things that Carole King went through after divorcing their respective spouses (Barry and Goffin). The only difference is that Carole King was more successful as a solo performer than Greenwich.
THE TRUE VOICE OF REASON
>.Being Jewish myself, this is a bit puzzling and offensive to me.
That's somewhat ironic, because I imagine the reason that the producers "deleted the Jewish of it" was so as not to offend you.
Yo, sometimes a Jewish person is brought up around Italians or WASPS and becomes that group themselves, at least in exterior. They never said that Denise (Ileana Douglas) wasn't jewish. That actress is Jewish! Right? She looks it...
Also, I can't belive Bryan wilson had a son named Carnage.
Eric stoltz is jewish too. Great movie, I loved it. Just saw it today for the first time.
lol. There is an off-Broadway (and touring) play about this right now: My Mother's Italian, My Father's Jewish and I'm In Therapy. Here is the Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Mothers_Italian,_My_Fathers_Jewish_and_I'm_In_Therapy
He doesn't. He has a daughter named Carnie. She and her sister Wendy were in the pop trio Wilson Phillips with Chynna Phillips (daughter of John and Michelle Phillips of The Mamas and The Papas).
"Carnage" was either a typo or someone trying to be funny or mean.
Did it occur to anyone that the producers didn't want the characters too exactly close to the real people for fear of being sued (like Martha Rae,rightly or wrongly, claimed For the Boys ripped off her life) ? So maybe they would change a few details like Italian/Jewish instead of Eastern European Jewish etc. It's still a good movie and a film a clef for those who can recognize these real people anyway.
shareFirstly let me say that I am not Jewish, nor do I consider myself to be affiliated with any particular religion or ethnicity. Probably because of this fact, my friends are in general an eclectic mix of many differing religions and ethnicities. Some of my friends are Jewish, so I have picked up some Yiddish and general knowledge of customs and culture along the way.
It appears to me that the Hollywood industry crowd are a bit shy about including Jewishness in the movies. I suspect that they assume that the general public will either not understand or identify with Jewish characters. For example, I am not Jewish, but I can sing the Hava Nagila and actually know what the Passover celebrates, etc. I can also do Tibetan throat singing (badly, but I can do it). These sorts of facts about me cause most people who know me to consider me the weirdest person they know. I think maybe the mainstream movie producers not interested in selling to people like me and are simply trying to play to the largest possible audience and avoid alienating anyone, which tends to bring all movies down to the least common denominator.
Thank goodness we now have the independent low-budget producers, or we would never see anything very culturally interesting. To give an example, The Milagro Beanfield War was produced independently by Robert Redford, with the help of numerous actor friends, including some big names. In that movie, they give a fairly accurate portrayal of a southern Native American custom: when a woman throws pebbles at a man, it means that she is available for marriage and interested. They use this several times in that movie and never bother to explain what it means. If you know, you know, and if you don't know, then Robert Redford doesn't care that you don't know. I find that attitude refreshing, and we could use a lot more of it in the mainstream industry.
It's not actually about Carole King, it's a fictional story that admittedly parallels some parts of King's life. I fail to understand how you might find it offensive that John Turturro's character isn't Jewish, seeing as Phil Spector is arguably a far less pleasant character than the character played by John Turturro in the film. Turturro's character plays a similar role in Douglas's character's life as Spector played in King's, but apart from that Turturro's character (Joel Millner) doesn't resemble Spector in the slightest, because he turns out to be a warm, wise and sensitive person and not a total nutjob.
In any case, since the film is explicitly fictional you have no reason to be offended. If it were marketed as a biopic that depicted Carole King as being not Jewish then that would be a lie, and you would have every reason to feel offended. It is merely inspired by some aspects of her life, and is in obvious ways a work of fiction. (If it's any good to you, I always assumed that her character was Jewish because I don't remember it ever being explicitly stated that she isn't.) I don't understand why you should feel offended.