Toni is too BIG


What spoils for me an otherwise carefully cast movie is Toni Collette as Emma's protegee, Harriet Smith. Instead of the sweet, timid, not terribly bright, but very pretty and dainty girl of the book, we get Toni Collette as a big, bosomy, clumsy girl, whose confusion and awkwardness are broadly comic, and who is so capable looking and so much bigger than Gwyneth Paltrow that she looks ridiculous and unbelievable being so easily led. Also, it is absurd to think that Mr Knightley would ever be interested in her, or that Emma would think that he was--whereas it is just possible that he might have his head turned by someone very young and pretty whose mind was a blank slate he could fill to suit him. That, however, I think, points up why the right sort of actress was not cast--too many viewers might think a timid, pretty dumbbell more desirable than a girl who was pretty, confident, and clever. Alas, even two centuries after Jane Austen created Emma, female helplessness has not lost its charm or female spirit its terrors.

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Dainty?

[Harriet Smith] was a very pretty girl, and her beauty happened to be of a sort which Emma particularly admired. She was short, plump and fair (ch. 3).

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it is absurd to think that Mr Knightley would ever be interested in her, or that Emma would think that he was
Not at all. In that time, women did not have magazines of Paris Hilton to emulate. "Plump" girls could be considered desirable, too.

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In fact (as those opposed to the 2005 P&P and Keira Knightley as Elizabeth Bennet are so fond of pointing out), being "plump" was in during the Regency. It showed one had status and wealth in that they could afford to eat as much as they wanted. Of course people came in all shapes and sizes then just as they do today, and just because many thought plumpness was desirable didn't mean that everyone did. But Mr Knightley was someone who paid little attention to society's standards of wealth, class or even beauty and considered the person on the inside--yes Harriet Smith is slightly vapid and silly, but she was very sweet and charming, and more than one person has been attracted to such qualities. So what I'm trying to say, is that simply because Harriet Smith in this film is a little on the larger side wouldn't automatically disclude her from any Regency man's being attracted to her. In fact, it would probably make her more desirable to the average Regency male.

John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had also never met.

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Everybody is missing the point here (or maybe needs glasses). Harriet in the book might have been plump, but that does not bar her from being dainty, which is a matter of manners as well as appearance (and plump women often have small, dainty hands and feet). Toni Collette is not merely not thin--she is clumsy and coarse. She knocks things over. She is a slow thinker. Her mouth hangs open when she is perplexed. This is not charming or feminine, and it certainly isn't classy. Also, if being plump was so desirable, how come all the clothes that have come down to us from that period are so tiny and the portraits of female aristocrats show them to be thin? It is true that plumpness was in the past desirable because it showed you had enough to eat, but among the upper middle class and certainly the upper class it was not a consideration because it was taken for granted that you had enough to eat. Also, it was more of a factor with men than women, because plumpness made the man look respectable and a good provider.

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//// Toni Collette is not merely not thin--she is clumsy and coarse. She knocks things over. She is a slow thinker. Her mouth hangs open when she is perplexed. This is not charming or feminine, and it certainly isn't classy. ////

I'm not sure if you are discussing toni collette of her character, Harriet.
If it's Toni you're talking about then didnt you see her at the BAFTAS? or the OSCARS? i think she's a beautiful, real woman, but most of all why should any bad points that youve mentioned be discussed on an internet message board? Seems a little harsh.. =/

If you meant harriet as a character then sorry, that was pretty pointless! But i do think it applies to all actresses and actors who are slagged off on these message boards- dont do it! whats the point?


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I have to agree that Tony Collette was not a great choice for this role. She is an amazing actress but was not a good foil for Emma for the reasons stated above. She was a bit lumbering to appeal to the gentlement Emma was trying to pair her with. She didn't just seem socially backward, at times she seemed mentally deficient. Just didn't resonate. And the whole plump Regency thing - what was up with Gwennth Paltrow then? It was just inconsistent. No attack of Collette's acting in general or physique in particular. Just a bad casting choice, IMO.

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I feel just the opposite; I felt that Gwyneth was too thin. Her collarbone and neck tendons were very prominent, and her face sometimes looked skull-like with her tightly pulled back hair. Toni looked great, but I didn't really like how she played her character either.

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Collette was probably told to play the character that way by the director.

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I also want to say not all good actors are a size 0. I think she is better for it. not being anorexic.

Heart aches completely every hour, every day and only when Im with you does the pain go away -Ewan

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As above, plump was beautiful at the time....it was Emma that would be too thin. However if one were to portry this in the movie, as at the time, it wouldn't work out very well....IMO.

Urania to Terpsichore: "You're so quiet. Musing????"

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Hmmm,I'm not too sure that a plumper Emma wouldn't go over well. I do like Gwyneth in the role, I don't think it's because of her thinness.
Jennifer Ehle in P&P isn't rail thin by any stretch of the imagination and she's a WONDERFUL Lizzy Bennett. True, Lizzy is a very different character than Emma, as well as a bit older. But I think we could handle a slightly heftier Emma.

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Do you mean that Jennifer Ehle is older or Lizzy Bennet is older. Because I believe Elizabeth tells Lady Catherine is not yet one and twenty and Emma Woodhouse is, if I am remembering correctly, twenty-one in the movie. She mentions something to Knightly about her upcoming twenty second year. So they are the same age, character wise.

On another note, I thought Jane Fairfax had not only the best figure, she had the best fitting costumes

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I also want to say not all good actors are a size 0. I think she is better for it. not being anorexic.

The idea that you think of thinner actresses as being "anorexic" shows that you are highly ignorant and don't understand what is a horrific disease, that can be had by any person of any body size.




It's never over, all my blood for the sweetness of his laughter

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I agree that Toni Collette was the wrong choice for Harriet.

Harriet is only 18 years old in the novel. Ms. Collette is beautiful, in my opinion, but she certainly looks way older than 18!

On my gravestone, I want to say "I told you I was sick." - Tom Waits

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The OP's point remains unaddressed. Yes, I agree that this production's casting/playing of the Harriet Smith character undermines the suspense of the story (for those viewers not familiar with it). No one could have pictured Mr. Knightly choosing that particular Harriet Smith over that particular Emma.

Yet in the novel, as the OP points out, there was genuine suspense because of the plausibility of a Regency gentleman preferring the un-bright, un-spirited woman over her opposite.

The filmmakers gave up this suspense in favor of comic relief (provided by the very capable Ms. Collette).

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I agree. The difference in the sizes of Gwyn and Toni have always distracted me a bit, as well. But I've wondered if it were a conscious casting decision. Perhaps the production team was eager to have Gwyn play the role and needed a physical foil for her slender, fair beauty? So they changed up Miss Smith's appearance a bit from the way it was described in the novel and cast Toni.

There are so many nice things to say about this movie. But this particular point has always been a bit questionable to me, too.

missy

illegitimi non carborundum

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Even though this is old I thought that I'd answer as both a historian and a reenactor. One of the reasons that the dresses that are passed down to us are so small is because people were smaller in general, for example for a man to be 6' was to be tall. There for many people's measurements when seen in that light are on the plumper side. An example the average woman's waist in Victorian times was around 30" and that is a corseted measurement. So if you are only 5'2" and your waist is that size then you are slightly larger. Another reason for the small size is frankly most of the out fits that we have are special occasion dresses (ie wedding gowns, ball gowns) and those are times when you are more likely to tight lace. As for pictures, have you ever seen anyone with a blemish or a hair out of place? If you want a true representation take a look at some CVs from the Victorian era or a Titian or two.

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[deleted]

"plump women often have small, dainty hands and feet"

My ex-boss was a big, chubby lady, but her feet were remarkably small. I always expected her to tip over from lack of a sufficient base.

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<< Not at all. In that time, women did not have magazines of Paris Hilton to emulate. "Plump" girls could be considered desirable, too. >>

Colette didn't even look that big to me. She's bigger than GWYNETH PALTROW...but who over the age of 12 isn't??

The old Brittish erotica features a lot of "lush" female figures bursting out of lace...lots of "rosy flesh", etc. You can imagine how when things were constrained, people eroticized something that was more unbound, almost gorged on Earthly delights.

I don't mean that really overweight people were considered more attractive than thin people...but given the choice, it was sexier to be on the plumper side rather than the skinnier.

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I'm "plump" and I'm hot too. No joke.

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Toni Colette is a great actress and she always offers good performances, that being said, she was not my mental image of Harriet Smith either, I would have casted someone beautiful in a classic way

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"... it is absurd to think that Mr Knightley would ever be interested in her, or that Emma would think that he was."

But isn't that the broader theme of the story? Emma is blind in her youth and entertains such absurdities throughout. Not that Toni Collette wasn't pretty, yes plump, but perfectly so for a farmer, which might be one reason Mr. Martin was so enamored with her.

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Makes the "anorexic" lead woman "look" better
caydj

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lol...probably a grain-the one Emma ate-in that.

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I preferred Samantha Morton as Harriet Smith in the Kate Beckinsdale version. In fact, I find myself turning to that version more often than the GP version of Emma. Maybe part of it is that some of the actors in that version are in other JA movies. Exa, Mr Woodhouse was played by Bernard Hepton and he was also in Mansfield Park. Samantha Bond who played Mrs Westons was a daughter in the same Mansfield Park. Incidently, Samantha Morton played a credible Jane Eyre in one version of the movie, Jane Eyre.
Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy the GP version of Emma.
my god its full of stars

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I wonder who cast Toni as Harriet.
She looked like a lady with strong willingness and can-do attitude, she was anything but being timid and waiting for a man.

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I think you are mistaken. Ms. Collette gives an excellent performance. Much of the humour of the story is how oblivious Emma is to the realities of matchmaking.

In any case, Mr. Knightley does give some fuel to the fire with his comments at the dance,

“In return for your acknowledging so much, I say that you chose for him better than he chose for himself. Harriet Smith has some first-rate qualities about her which Mrs. Elton is entirely without. Your friend surprised me, most pleasantly.”


This implies to me that Mr. Knightley has gained an appreciation for Ms. Smith that goes beyond a mere visual inspection. Perhaps he is not so shallow as you would believe. It is clear that Emma credits him with more.

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Knightly wasn't talking about her looks. His objection to her was that she was the "natural daughter" of who-knows-whom. I agree with the OP. TC is a great actress, and attractive in her own way. But in this production, with those hairstyles and clothes, and GP as a foil, she doesn't look "plump," she looks like a tank. Or a cow.

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I don't recall that Mr. Knightley ever says or implies any disapproval of Harriet's being a bastard. Harriet's status is discussed because Knightley is trying to illustrate to Emma how she has ruined Harriet's best chance for marriage that she is ever likely to receive. Additionally, Knightley's purpose is also to make clear to Emma that Elton would never consider Harriet because he would never consider anyone who is a bastard. Emma deludes herself into believing that this won't matter to Elton; Knightley tries to set her straight about it.

Knightley's initial objection to Harriet is his conviction that neither woman will do the other any good. Knightley would rather see Emma keep company with someone whom he thinks will guide Emma in a better direction (reading, practicing her pianoforte, etc.). He doesn't think Harriet is a good candidate for having this kind of positive influence over Emma. He's convinced that Harriet will go along with everything Emma says, and that as a result Emma will believe she already knows everything she needs to know, and that she'll become even more self-important than she already is. Additionally, he's worried that Harriet will develop ideas and airs which will prevent her from successfully mixing with people from her own station.

I think her the very worst sort of companion that Emma could possibly have. She knows nothing herself, and looks upon Emma as knowing every thing. She is a flatterer in all her ways; and so much the worse, because undesigned. Her ignorance is hourly flattery. How can Emma imagine she has any thing to learn herself, while Harriet is presenting such a delightful inferiority? And as for Harriet, I will venture to say that she cannot gain by the acquaintance. Hartfield will only put her out of conceit with all the other places she belongs to. She will grow just refined enough to be uncomfortable with those among whom birth and circumstances have placed her home. I am much mistaken if Emma's doctrines give any strength of mind, or tend at all to make a girl adapt herself rationally to the varieties of her situation in life.—They only give a little polish (ch. 5).
Knightley disapproves of their friendship because he foresees an unhappy outcome in it for both young women.

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Okay. But none of it has anything to do with her looks.

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[ Knightly wasn't talking about her looks.]

Yes. That’s the point. Mr. Knightley appreciates qualities in her that go beyond looks. He is the type of man who could see past mere looks and appreciate a potential spouse for those “first-rate qualities” that Harriet Smith possesses.

For example, although Emma might be more comely we can feel very confident that Harriet would never treat someone as rudely as Emma does Ms. Bates- an act that has Mr. Kinghtley beside himself. Indeed, in her good-natured innocence Ms. Smith is superior to Ms. Woodhouse in many ways. Although Emma perhaps has nothing to fear in a beauty contest, I don’t think her personality is blue-ribbon winner.

I think it is our own jaded superficiality as a film audience that is to blame in this perceived casting issue. Shame on us.

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I feel like you are I are both missing each other's point. My point is that TC was physically wrong for the role. Nothing Mr. Knightly says can really address that because he was never reacting to her looks in the first place. So referencing him to justify casting a big, solid, rather homely (in period dress) woman to play a cute young woman doesn't help reconcile me to it.

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The thrust of the original post was, “it is absurd to think that Mr Knightley would ever be interested in her, or that Emma would think that he was”.

My point was that it is only “absurd” if you are a very shallow person- which Mr Knightley is not and Emma knows this. Thus regardless of Ms. Collette’s looks there is no defect of logic in the film. Mr. Knightley could be interested in Ms. Smith, and Emma could be worried that he is.

Yes, Ms. Collette may not match the description from the novel to your satisfaction but in the film adaptation the casting works fine. Indeed, the foil for Emma in the film is Jane Fairfax, played by Polly Walker. Jane is the obvious threat that Emma reacts to, Harriet is the one that sneaks up on her. I think it works quite well the way it plays out. In fact, given the way Emma reacts to Jane it seems almost natural that she would gravitate towards helping a girl who was no real rival in her (or the audience’s) eye.

That perception of the audience would actually work against the film if Harriet were cast the way you suggest. For example, say that Polly Walker was cast as Harriet instead. How would Mr. Elton’s indignant reaction to Emma’s attempting matchmaking play out then? It wouldn’t have that same comic feel since a modern egalitarian audience would not find the differences in class and wealth as comically absurd as the original readers. No, I think it was a good choice for the adaptation.



(By the way, I think Ms. Collette deserves a defender here. She is in no way “homely”. She may have a larger dress size than Ms Paltrow but she is still pretty. )

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I disagree. They could have found a cute little thing who was obviously a bit simple and it would have worked out just as well. Better, rather, because Emma herself seems to feel (or at least she says to Knightly during the archery scene) that being pretty is really the highest recommendation a woman can have in men's eyes (or words to that effect.)

Jane Austen described her as pretty, and I think she knew what she was doing. The comedy becomes too broad if the girl is too broad.

And she does look dang homely in period dress and an unflattering hairstyle. Even very beautiful women can be done in by the wrong grooming. And TC is not beautiful. She's an okay looking woman who can fix up nice if she chooses styles that suit her, but that's as much as anyone can honestly say about her. (As with most of us.)

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[ They could have found a cute little thing who was obviously a bit simple and it would have worked out just as well. Better, rather,]

I disagree. The humour of the film is that Ms. Smith is an unlikely project that the oblivious Emma fails to see. You want to make Harriet a more appealing match for some eligible suitor and that is precisely what would make it less funny.

[Jane Austen described her as pretty, and I think she knew what she was doing.]

She also described Mr. Elton as good-looking and Alan Cumming is about as far from that as you can get in a professional actor. (Ewan McGregor is no looker either.)

The film was adapted with a comic sensibility to appeal to a modern audience. I think it works very well.

The difficulty with adaptation is that one has to balance faithfulness to the details with faithfulness to the overall intent. A beautiful woman who was rejected solely for her class seems like repugnant, elitist snobbery to a modern audience. However at the time it was written it was a much milder, comic rebuke. One way to get back to that lighter tone is to make the failed matches seem unlikely for reasons more comically palatable to a modern audience.

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"A beautiful woman who was rejected solely for her class seems like repugnant, elitist snobbery to a modern audience."

Not if she's a dingbat, which Harriet was. Moreover, you're basically admitting, then, that TC is not beautiful.

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[ Not if she's a dingbat, which Harriet was.]

Do you really think Mr. Elton would care if she was dingbat if she was a bombshell? Marilyn Monroe made a career out of being a ditz; if anything it increased her sex appeal to men. No, her rejection would be pure classism.


[Moreover, you're basically admitting, then, that TC is not beautiful.]

My argument was never that she is a beauty on the level of Gwyneth Paltrow, or Polly Walker, or even Greta Scacchi. I was pointing out that it didn’t matter and so wasn’t a defect of casting.

What I objected to was calling her homely- that’s ridiculous. She is not a great beauty but she is a pretty girl. In this case I am describing “pretty” as above average, as compared to “beautiful” which is the highest echelon.

“Homely” is not merely below average but the lowest echelon- that’s just silly. She is certainly better looking than her rival for Mr. Elton: Juliet Stevenson , (who herself is still above average). I would say an average-looking woman in the production is Sophie Thompson (Miss Bates).

There are a lot of ugly people in the world. You see them every day walking down the street. Toni Collette does not fall in that category- at least not for me. Perhaps you have a higher standard, but if Toni Collette is homely then the world is filled with hideous grotesques.

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We definitely have different tastes, because I think Juliet S was (also) homely and Sophie Thompson more attractive than either (behind those glasses.)

As far as saying it "didn't matter," perhaps you should amend it to say it didn't matter TO YOU. It mattered to others or there wouldn't be a whole thread about it.

By the way, "homely" was never lowest-echelon in my world. It went kind of like:

beautiful
pretty
cute
plain
homely
ugly

IMHO, TC is plain unless very well fixed up, where she rises to the level of cute, and homely when brought down by bad hairstyling. I'd never consider her truly ugly, but she's got horse's teeth in a fish's mouth, as far as I can see.

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You left out attractive, which goes between pretty and cute. And exquisite, which goes above beautiful. But your assessment of Ms. Colette's physical faults was really not necessary and quite rude. We're talking about how she was inappropriate for the ROLE, not to put her down on a personal level. Though in comparison to others, she may not seem very attractive TO YOU, she is far from homely, or even plain. I don't know how many actors or actresses you've met personally, but I've found many people I thought weren't too attractive on screen, look much more attractive in person.

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Hey, I'm hoping she never reads here on IMDB because she's a great actress and I'm not trying to put her down on a personal level or hurt her feelings. But some people are pretty and most aren't. And she's not.

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Again, TO YOU. But I'm thinking about how shallow outward beauty is and I'm wondering if you look like Christie Brinkley or Angelina Jolie or own a modeling agency or something, being so judgmental and all. And I would hope if someone called you "not pretty," that you would feel that you have more to offer in this world than just your physical attributes ... or lack thereof. Sometimes when one is lacking one, the other makes up for it.

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by tday
Again, TO YOU. But I'm thinking about how shallow outward beauty is and I'm wondering if you look like Christie Brinkley or Angelina Jolie or own a modeling agency or something, being so judgmental and all. And I would hope if someone called you "not pretty," that you would feel that you have more to offer in this world than just your physical attributes ... or lack thereof. Sometimes when one is lacking one, the other makes up for it.
You seem to think that what a woman looks like is of such importance that if someone is objective about the way an actress looks, then they are engaging in a personal attack on her. I don't think what Toni looks like is important, but it is an objective fact, and it does affect the roles that are suitable for her.

Toni Collette is an actress. She is not just a pretty face who always has to look perfect. I'm sure that the actress who played Muriel is not overly concerned about being "pretty."

Do you really not understand the difference between calling someone "not pretty" in a personal way and objectively discussing what an actress looks like?

Toni can be an amazingly striking and very sexy woman. But you think she is being insulted if she is described as "not pretty" because you overrate being pretty. I doubt that Toni makes that mistake

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But I'm not an actor. I have a job based on my training and abilities in a very specific field where it doesn't matter what I look like. TC is an actress and it helps very much when an actor looks like the character they are supposed to be portraying. It's really as simple as that.

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[deleted]

Mr Knightley also tells Emma that "Men of sense, whatever you may chuse to say, do not want silly wives" (chapter 8).

a cute little thing

Make that a cute little plump thing and then you'll be following the text.

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I didn't like her either. I always thought of Harriet like a silly chubby little bird with her feathers all fluffed. Toni, while I think she is attractive, isn't "adorable" enough, which is how I think of Harriet. A better choice would've been someone more along the lines of Reese Witherspoon, or better yet, Melissa Rauch with her small squeaky voice, endowed petite frame and gentle demeanor.

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