MovieChat Forums > Kids (1995) Discussion > Do feminists also think about the MOTIVA...

Do feminists also think about the MOTIVATION factor here?


In the discussion for this film's most disturbing and controversial scene, the r-worded deed (and yes I know what it is but feel shy to type it out loud), I have heard that when feminists say its about power, and not sex, they are not giving the DICTIONARY definition of it. Fine, it is what it is, I respect that fact and besides, the DICTIONARY definition of it, BESIDES law, feelings of hurt and victimhood, despising the perpetrator, saying (RIGHTLY) but commonly "its bad, don't do it" AND saying its ABOUT power, has always been what it was. "Forced sexual contact perpetrated by one party against another without that person's consent". That's truism and fact. Yes. BUT...

So they say its ABOUT POWER, OK it is. With THAT statement...

Are they also saying the perpetrator is MOTIVATED by power, which means in this case, perhaps, intention to hurt and humiliate? And that sex here is a means to an end but not an end itself? Don't get anyone wrong, it would be bad no matter WHAT the motivation was. Even if he wanted sex but was just careless to ask for consent, it would still be truly terrible and make the individual bad and whatnot. But then I often hear many if not all cases where such perpetrators do it out of pure desire to hurt and humiliate the victim rather than, however selfishly, "have sex with them".

So my question is - by saying "ITS ABOUT POWER, not sex", are they also explaining the MOTIVATION for the deed and stating WHY IT HAPPENS? Thanks.

P.S. We often hear how in court law won't care and give an excuse for this and that were something to happen and was someone to do something bad and illegal. TRUE! However, out of sheer curiosity, and in sexual abuse and r*pe cases as such, has a judge, police officer, criminal psychologist, and say in typical examples like shown here, ever asked the perpetrator or defendant "Why did you do it, why did you rape her?", after establishing OFFICIAL guilt, in order to UNDERSTAND the motivation behind it, BESIDES OBVIOUSLY THINKING THEY WERE WRONG AND BAD AND CRIMINALLY OFFENSIVE ETC ETC ETC TO DO IT "IN THE FIRST PLACE", which is a given of course.

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Sorry, but that feminist line was always bologna.

Are some cases of rape about power dynamics? Yes, some.

However, many cases are simply about sex being a means to an end. For instance, men rape other men in prison out of sexual frustration/need:
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/prison-rape-research-explores-prevalence-prevention

A lot of it just about releasing pent up sexual energy, in the case of prison.

The feminist line about power also doesn't hold any water whatsoever when you consider female inmates raping other female inmates, or forcing other female inmates to perform oral acts on them. It's literally about pent up sexual frustrations and trying to build a physical connection with someone else, even if it's against their will.

In the cases where most rapes take place by strangers, a lot of its it's committed by thugs and scumbags just looking to take advantage of the woman, and -- as you noted -- it's about their own selfish gratification:
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence

Now an argument can definitely be made about an ex committing sexual assault as a power-play to either express or regain some sense of power over the individual (as a way to get back against the ex). But a lot of times it's just about someone being perverse or seeking self-gratification.

I mean, in the twisted minds of feminists, if you're not really in the mood to jerk off, but you see a hot chick and rub one out, does it mean you've raped yourself to exert power over yourself?

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Also, why are feminists minds here "twisted"?

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And also, even if they have this frustration need, do they not worry about victim consequences etc etc etc including in some cases outright suicide? And do they not think about how perverse etc it really is?

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That's a really good question.

I think in many cases it's not even a consideration -- I mean, how could it be if they were willing to take advantage of the person, especially if the person is still conscious?

Usually these people lack empathy and completely disregard the well-being and aftermath of the victim (as is obviously the case when assault takes place at the hands of an adult against a child).

As to whether or not they think about how perverse it is? That's an interesting question. I'm reminded me of the scary yet funny real-life "booty warrior", who held zero qualms about what he did and didn't in any way see it as a violation of the other person's well-being:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2-nYHfPBRc&pp=ygUMYm9vdHkgYmFuZGl0

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EVERYTHING YOU SAID HAS "POWER" BEHIND OR ALONGSIDE IT.

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Has anyone wondered here what "power" ACTUALLY means? And do perpetrators, besides being wrong, obviously have that in mind etc or are motivated by it?

Also - it isn't just feminists who use that phrase, I have heard many people including men who are not into feminism do it.

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Is there even ONE absolute truth here that is 100% correct in any case beyond popular opinions?

And also, in this film's scene, was he motivated by it?

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The perpetrators of this bad deed in any case...

Have wreaked quite a lot of social chaos for a long time and have mentally pissed off many people among us for a variety of reasons beyond the very obvious ones.

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2 cyguration, my oh my, you sure DO know a lot about the subject AND not afraid to talk about its various aspects here and there etc etc etc.

P.S. I myself haven't had any sexual real experience but I for one did not get any pent up prison frustration etc and well, I don't want to go to too much details but, well... It is a bit harsh all of it to hear however true, not complaining, just intensely perhaps stating overall factual frustration.

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The male persons who rape are psychopaths. Psychopath males evolved an instinct to want to have power over other people who do not like them and because of that, psychopath males get off on power over people as part of the "psychopath psychology evolution" package.

Male persons who can feel real emotions only feel good when women display real positive feedback to them and male persons who can feel real emotions feel sad and/or embarrassed or awkward when women display negative feedback to them.

If it is alright if I say this: There is an african tribe where the women have their clitoris cut off at a certain age. That tribe does that to sexually control the women. Some woman(who is a psychopath) from that tribe had to have told the psychopath males from that tribe that the clitoris is what causes a woman to feel good. Just like that psychopath woman told the males about the clitoris, a psychopath male person must have told women that psychopath male persons also get off on the power of controlling a woman when the psychopath male person rapes a woman.

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While rapists aren't necessarily psychopaths, I generally agree:
Rape is usually about power and possession.

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No it ain't. Thats bullshit and the scenario in this movie is usually what is rape these days. A guy is horny, wants sex and a woman leaves herself unprotected by getting herself wasted. Power has ZERO to do with it. The man doesn't even need his power, unless it's to forcibly shove drugs/alcohol down her throat against her will. HINT HINT: WHICH DOESNT HAPPEN.

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You just showed (again) that you don't have a clue.

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Riiiight. So Casper did for the power satisfaction, and not to just cum? Uh huh, sure.

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If he just needed to cum he could've made the wanker.
"HINT-HINT Uh huh" 🙄​

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could've made the wanker? What are you, some scullery maid from the 19th century?

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Yep, I'm a time traveller. ​😃​

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Maybe there is MORE to this "power" argument in this type of scenario than meets the eye (or rather - MIND) and lies on the surface, no? And its still bad and terrible and many or at least a lot of people suspect it generally, right?

But I also generally wondered, when people SAY it, are they also explaining the reason behind it and motivation, i.e. why it happens? The cause - even if of course they don't at all deny it, rather than "merely the effect"? THIS is what I was mostly wondering. As opposed to saying perhaps what it is or not giving a mere DICTIONARY definition of it. (Hint, LITERALLY speaking, when I read the dictionary, it doesn't necessarily say there as a meaning "its about power".)

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I actually in my mind frequently THEORETICALLY thought and hypothesized so, that yes, in a way, people who do say "its about power", are also trying to explain why it happens, as bad and inexcusable as it is in either case with or without that argument.

And I suppose yes "power" here really does mean humiliation and a desire to somehow hurt, dominate someone etc.

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Yes, it's about to find the reason why it happens.
What's the motivation?
On the first sight -of course- it looks as if someone just wants to satisfy a sexual desire. But it goes deeper.

That Casper guy in the movie was high and probably wasn't really aware what he was doing. In a court of law he certainly would receive mitigating circumstances.
But we didn't discuss Casper's special case when this Macho jumped in.

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He meant that he could have a wank or masturbate if that's what he needed or highly wanted ALONE.

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I got that. It was just a very stupid way of saying that, but that's what bongs are known for, talking like gutter trash from the 19th century.

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TimeTunnel is a nice fella alone or TimeTraveller but I believe he is German and English isn't his first language. No offense to him of course though.

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Thanks and you're right. 💋​
I'm TimeTunnel and TimeTraveller. ☺
English isn't my first language and I'm female.

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Oh, OK, sorry haha, I sometimes confuse people's genders here.

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No problem.
A tunnel doesn't show a gender. ☺

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"While rapists aren't necessarily psychopaths"
At least some of them are though. And most if not all are at least sociopaths or highly uncivilized individuals. And there are some who are evil serial criminals among them at least in some parts etc etc etc.

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Also, to some people, not necessarily feminists, but just, err, folks in general.

The explanation "its about power" ALONE seems to be a deeply satisfying one in this case and immediately brings to attention that this matter is terrible and bad etc as if in and of itself that is not only enough, but also makes total perfect sense as if the word itself, these days or otherwise, doesn't send a feeling of dread alone through certain people's minds already.

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And I said it at times before but I also have wondered and believed the following. And if we take, at least for now, male offenders including but NOT limited to say, like even THIS movie shows, them with female victims.

The real problem of male sex offenders is not what's in their trousers, its what in their HEADS, it all starts with the BRAIN and MIND. I often hear about how if they were all to be castrated alone, this is what may solve (and even then, besides, you know ethics, if it really does work like that alone) the overall problem of sex crimes in the world, but, even if we don't advocate lobotomy instead of the c word, I think its a fact worth paying attention to.

Fish rots from the head, as some say, the top.

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Can you explain how it wouldn't be about power?

If someone is taking something from someone that they do not want to give, how is it not a power move to take it?

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Maybe you're right, maybe its power by default, apriori, per say. Whatever it means, it probably is that anyway.

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I've also observed that, even in cinema, and let's take one KNOWN example of say male on female r**e as such, bad and inexcusable as it is in ANY case...

Some men do it out of purely (evil? terribly selfish? vicious?) awful desire to downright degrade, hurt (physically AND emotionally) etc etc their victim. See, for one, films like "Irreversible" (2002), any war film give or take including "Casualties of War" (1989) or the disturbing 2005 British drama "The Great Ecstacy of Robert Carmichael" where, HEAVY SPOILERS, after doing the dastardly deed, horrifying and wrong as it was no doubt in and of itself, they even went as far as to brutally MURDER their victims, in ways I wouldn't describe here.

And in some cases, though out of very selfish and one sides, and perhaps due to being uncivilized, maybe even at times mentally ill, etc, so called "desperate love" (or is it selfish perverse OBSESSION), like, to name one cinematic example, Pedro Almodovar's (and its a great film as well) 2002 film "Talk To Her" where, SPOILERS, he violates that young woman Alicia in a coma. ALSO, this film IS against it, yes, the man even faces CONSEQUENCES for it, BUT... It doesn't fully present the guilty individual in it Beningo as 100% PURELY EVIL VILLAIN, it even allows audience to get behind him, at best study and explore him and even try to understand him and do so in a surreal cinematic and even morbidly fascinating way with elements of black comedy. I was STILL disturbed no doubt, but... Those other examples also made me feel, well, if criteria even APPLIES here, a little WORSE, not to mention, those other individuals were presented as officially irredeemable and downright nasty creeps whereas, yeah, perhaps here he was one too, but the movie sort of treated him more as a guilty and disturbed individual, without telling the audience to say hate him like those other movies did.

And then there are rape and revenge films here too, LOADS of them. "I Spit on Your Grave" (1978) and its

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2010 remake and various sequels, various Death Wish movies, one film called "Revenge" (2017), other examples.

Knowing all this, cinematically AND real life, besides it being wrong and bad, what does it tell us, about rape (and sexual abuse in general) and the mentality and motivation of rapists, about why it is such a pressing and common issue in spite of its terrible and heinous nature, about how although its always bad the motivation may differ but we still don't consider it acceptable OR forgivable as civilized beings and also recognize the DANGERS there beyond obvious stigma and POLITICAL CORRECTNESS and other examples including what we see in this movie too? And then we have internet talks about "what constitutes consent" and what the law says here and what society thinks this and that, and its all common arguments where sadly miracles rarely happen and not everyone like that either comes to a satisfying conclusion nor do we make simple divisions like "heroes and villains" here either. In real life, that is.

As disturbing and distasteful as it is to many of us in general not to mention those who have gone through it etc.

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Why does everybody assume there can only be one motive for rape? Can some be motivated by power while others are just motivated by a sense of sexual entitlement? As one person here put it the only common theme is that those who do it lack empathy.


So, lets take a look at Casper. He just seems like a disgusting pig who would probably hump someone’s leg like a dog if the mood fit him, not out of any desire to assert dominance, but rather that he is just to simplistically minded to see beyond his own desire for pleasure. He saw Jenny asleep, and being horny while lacking empathy he got his rocks off. While his act was a hurtful one, it was probably not his motive (although he wouldn’t care if he did).


But sure, for some it is about power.


For example, Telly. His obsession with virgins has often been seen by many as a desire for physical pleasure but I see that as a power thing. Take a look at the first girl. She was clearly in pain, yet he made no attempt to slow down. When a girl keeps saying “it hurts” that implies “stop” or at least “slow down” yet he continued going at her hard, without even the slightest attempt to slow down and be more gentle. Was that intentional sadism, or was it a focus on his own desires with a lack of regard for her suffering? I’d say the former. When he comes out of her house afterwards, he brags to Casper about how she screamed when he penetrated and how she was bleeding, like he got off on that. With the second girl, when she first says it hurts, he speeds up, and is looking intently into her eyes, like he wants to focus on her facial expression when she is in pain. If it was an indifferent desire merely for his own satisfaction would he have been looking at her face so intently? By the time Jenny opens the door, he is pounding away at her like a jackhammer, while she is still crying that it hurts. That seemed less like indifference to harm (ie Casper) and more like it made him feel powerful and dominant to hurt her like that.

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