MovieChat Forums > Quiz Show (1994) Discussion > I still remain unconvinced it was ILLEGA...

I still remain unconvinced it was ILLEGAL (or should be for that matter)


It's tv, it's entertainment, that's what it is. So the show was set up for dramatic effect.... so? Why should the government or courts get involved at all in this? If people become mad and don't like it, guess what, DONT WATCH IT!!!! Or probably some competitor will show up and be like, "hey, we have 'honest' shows without setups" and get more of an audience!

My point is, government involvement in this is just retarded. Plus, they end up sending some of the guys involved to jail for perjury... which means they go to jail for lying about something that wasn't a crime to begin with (similar to baseball drug controversy right now).

Am I the only one that thinks this is a bit ridiculous? That the government has WAY too much power as it is? That if you have a problem with something, maybe bringing the government into it isn't necessarily the best solution?

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Well, what's the alternative? I'm a libertarian, but I'd still have been in favor of government intervention in this matter.

If 21 is staged, fine. But don't pass it off as live action, suspense filled reality. A simple disclaimer at the beginning of the show would suffice. Just state that the answers had been given to some of the contestants and the outcome of the show was predetermined by the show's producers.

But to defend it as something it is not is, and I truly believe this, an affront on the public trust.

You've got to put this scandal in it's historical context. There weren't 300 channels. The public was naive to the power of TV in this era. There was clear delineation between fact and fiction. The News was fact. The Honeymooners was fiction. 21 was portrayed as the former. It was a sham.

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You're not a libertarian.

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Exactly. Now I AM a libertarian, and I think the idea that TAXPAYER MONEY was used to fund this CONGRESSIONAL "investigation" of television quiz shows (it all started with the $64,000 question actually), which as you stated, were not doing anything illegal in the first place, is just reprehensible. Goodwin was also an aggressive, ambitious young lawyer then who wanted a career in politics, and he saw this as a way to get public exposure. And it worked for him.

Unfortunately it was all part of the HUAC paranoia about the media in general, and the extreme, even childish mentality of people during the 1950s, during the birth of television, regarding the "truth" of what was being shown on television. Your average American then would have known nothing about television production, or how game shows were constructed (engineered) then and now to make them more exciting, much less the issue of trying to recruit more attractive candidates, teaching candidates how to be media friendly, shaping publicity, and so on.

This was clearly one of the worst examples of government showboating; can you imagine congressional hearings being held today in which the jersey shore crowd or the Kardashians were questioned regarding the "truth" of their "reality" shows? Or the "absolute truth" behind a show with contestants like American Idol? And then people went to jail for perjury based on their answers? Obviously in our modern culture such a thing would rightfully be regarded as absurd. As another poster stated, the government interference into the baseball and steroid use issue was bad enough. It was another abuse of power and waste of taxpayer money. The taxpayer does not need to be protected by the government from baseball players who may or may not have used steroids. Another absurd waste.

I do regard the ridiculous parents vs. rock bands crap of the 1980s (the PMRC) to be another example of outrageous government overreach, and a blatant attempt to win political favor (Tipper Gore was looking for an issue to make her husband the "values" democrat, and she seized on this one since evangelical Christians were already worked up over Ozzy et al. and the supposed apocalypse that was about to happen "any day now" in the 1980s). The fact that she organized the whole thing as "just a bunch of concerned mothers" rather than a more general approach to labeling content like the film industry had been doing for years showed that yet again it was all about politics.

"On Pet Rescue today, the clever stoat keeps everyone on their toes in Somerset!"

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Reminds me of the Warrant song, Ode to Tipper Gore. Classic.

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>>> HUAC paranoia

There was nothing paranoid about HUAC. Communists had infiltrated many levels of government, all the way up to US State Department (Alger Hiss).

It should be against the law to use 'LOL'; unless you really did LOL!

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i find it sorta funny that a quiz show type format later on in america b/c the norm for testing in schools: the scantron type multiple choice test. which is more about memory than actually knowing why an answer is what it is & having to explain it.





'I'm not making art, I'm making sushi.'-Masaharu Morimoto

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The point was that it was wrong for the contestants to be given the answers to the games. They were supposed to win or lost honestly. The public felt like they had been cheated by these scandals. And yes, there are excuses made like the Gregory Peck line and Eisenhower's book.

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murphtones' post is key in the grand scheme of this debate. Perspective is what's important. In this day and age where we have shows like The Hills and anything else MTV pawns off as reality. We know what Reality TV is now and we're aware of the evolution the term "reality" has made over the decades. You even have shows that use the slogan, "Not reality. Actuality" as a way of deterring any of the connotations "reality" comes with. Think about that! The show doesn't want to be advertised as "Real" but as "Actual"!

We swim in this grey area of entertainment every day, and the public is aware of it. The same thing was happening in the 1950s with this particular show, but the public wasn't privy to it.

As murphtones said, it's all about perspective.

we shan't be telling your mother this, shan't we?

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Maybe "wrong," though I would even question that as it is a television show and needs no relationship to "truth" whatsoever, but not, absolutely not, ILLEGAL. The government investigation was an outrageous waste of time and money.

"On Pet Rescue today, the clever stoat keeps everyone on their toes in Somerset!"

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There was nothing illegal going on. The only prosecutions were for perjury of those contestants who had lied to a grand jury. The producers merely lost their jobs but eventually came back into the industry.
Only after a public outcry did Congress pass a law banning the rigging of game shows in 1959.

Speaking as a contestant who has won quiz shows, I would be livid if I was told to take a dive.

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That's my point though: if there was nothing illegal going on, why is there a freaking grand jury? and holding a grand jury for something in which nothing illegal happened in the hopes of then prosecuting someone for perjury... I find that VERY troublesome.

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There is the point that most losing contestants on the show weren't given a chance in a rigged game. They werent paid off to take a dive, it was just the winner who was coached. If you are playing someone who has been given the answers you'll lose eventually no matter how much you know. They were victims of a confidence trick, they may have gone home with a couple of thousand dollars but much less than they could have won in an honest game. Now most confidence tricks dont leave the chump two or three grand richer and oblivious to the fact they have been had but the beauty of this scam was the money came from the sponsors who made tens of millions in increased sales.

In Herb Stempels case he was not paid all the money he had won on the show so had a legal grievance although to claim it all he would have to admit fraud. In hindsight the bad way Stempel was treated by the producers and presented as a nerd on TV was what made him blow the whistle. No-one else would as everyone made money and even the oblivious losing contestants made some money.

It became public knowledge that another show Dotto was rigged. There was no debate, a standby contestant called Edmund Hegelmier found a list of answers the winner Marie Winn had written before the show in the green room. He went to the press and CBS immediately took the show off the air. The FCC investigated every quiz show but the producers lied to them and no action could be taken without proof like they had on "Dotto".

After that the Journal-American was willing to print Herb Stempel's story which previously they hadn't been for fear of being sued. The NY DA's office then interviewed Stempel and smelt fraud. Even at the grand jury it was Herb's word against 150 other contestants, the producers and a written disclaimer signed by Stempel under duress. Probably because it seemed like a lone nut versus everyone else the judge sealed the proceedings to prevent Stempel slandering 150 people in open court where he has privilege. This is what got Congress interested along with the press attention. When Patty Duke eventually admitted it before congress, they knew the truth and Snodgrass provided "the smoking gun".

18 of the contestants and one producer were convicted of perjury and given suspended sentances.

Only Hegelmier went straight to the press.

For a transcipt of the PBS documentary go to:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/quizshow/filmmore/transcript/index.html


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Yaaaay. I am sure that millions are delighted that the gov has protected us forever from the evil possibility of a rigged television game show. We will all sleep better at night...

"On Pet Rescue today, the clever stoat keeps everyone on their toes in Somerset!"

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The point is the studio was going to contrive drama around the show, irregardless of what the contestant wanted. Individual lives and reputation can still be ruined through entertainment.

Can you justify a tv program or product using an individual like an asset, but discarding them when the alternative is more profitable? What happens if entertainment industry isn't not held accountable for its actions? How far can or will they go for ratings? Who cares, here's $20k...

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To my knowledge, it was not illegal. The quiz show was being investigated by Congress, not to determine whether the law had been broken (that is not Congress' function, prosecutors investigate lawbreaking), but to determine whether it would be in the public interest to regulate it (possibly making it illegal for the future, which is apparently what Congress did in 1959).

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Who the heck would watch Jeopardy if we knew that the contestants had been given the answers already? What would be the sense of that?

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The Monkees weren't a real band.. at first.. and yet they played it off that they could really play their instruments. And, if memory serves, they weren't taken in front of a grand jury over it. It's the same difference. Who cares if the show was rigged? Watching a game show is all about excitement and suspense. When you watch a game show you are watching to see who wins, not if it's real or not. Reality shows aren't real by any means and no one seems to care. The OP was correct in his statement.

Dragonzord! Mastodon! Pterodactyl! Triceratops! Saber Toothed Tiger! Tyrannosaurus!

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[deleted]

He was working for an oversight committee which included oversight for the FCC. There may have been some FCC rules being broken and that's what he was looking into.

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You are 100% correct, FlorenceFosterJenkins. They were committing fraud plain and simple.



It's nobody's business but ours.

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I don't see anyone here pointing out another fraud: the honest contestants who thought they were playing straight. What opportunity costs did they incur to go on a rigged show? Did any of them pass up a job interview, a day of work, a day of class? Not all of the "21" contestants were fed answers and told to take a dive; some of them were simply ambushed. THAT was fraud.

~~~~~~~
Think cynical thoughts.

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The weird thing about all this was why did Enright feel he had to fix the show in the first place? If Herb Stemple was coached, too, and you wanted him off the air, stop coaching him, then see what happens. According to the movie, they never gave honesty a chance.

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The weird thing about all this was why did Enright feel he had to fix the show in the first place? If Herb Stemple was coached, too, and you wanted him off the air, stop coaching him, then see what happens.

Because if you're Dan Enright, it's not enough to be able to say to sponsors, "our ratings are OK now, but last year we had a really hot contestant and you should have seen our numbers then." You'd need to be able to deliver those kinds of ratings over and over again. And for that you'd need contestants with star quality or whatever you wanna call it -- like Van Doren -- and contestants like that don't come along every day.

So when it came time to make the switch, you'd want to make sure you had everything taken care of. Suppose you let Stempel just play honestly on the last night, but by bad luck he got a lot of questions he knew and won the game. (And even though the thing was rigged, the contestants were very bright people -- they had to be to pull off the con effectively.) What would you do then? Bring Van Doren back and say, "he lost last week, but we liked him so much we decided to give him another chance"?

No, Stempel had it right in what he (clumsily) said to the Congressional committee. It's not enough to make sure the new guy wins, you've also gotta make sure the old guy loses.

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Obviously both Enright's production company, NBC, and Geritol had a financial reason for boosting the ratings of "21". Having said that were it to be an actual contest, anyone would expect it to be as "on the level" as possible. While many wonder why its such a big deal to rig a contest I would simply ask them if the last time they found they were being lied to by someone were they pleased? Did it not matter to them that someone had gone out of their way to tell them a lie for whatever reason? Would they not be upset if said lie cost them money? Certainly nobody in this movie was without fault be it Stempel, Van Doren, NBC, Geritol, or Enright. Yes it's wrong to lie and rig a contest.

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When I watch this movie it just infuriates me how congress wastes time and money on crap like policing television or going after steroids in baseball, there's NOTHING more important on your plate?

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I don't think Dan Enright should have been allowed to participate in any more game shows as a producer. But at the time, there was no law in the books that make it illegal to rig a game show until said law was passed in 1961.

What actually happened is that the very first episode of Twenty One had not been rigged, BUT all the games ended in 0-0 ties. Dan even said how embarrassing it was. The pharmaceutical company called Enright the next day saying, "Dan, we can't let what happened last night happen again." Dan than met with Al Freeman and the rigged shows were to begin the following week.

Every show after that was rigged, except for the very last show of the series, when the scandal broke and they tried to make the game legit, but it was too late. The following week, the show Top Dollar took its place.

It is sad what Twenty One could have been if played honestly and that the public did not get to see Stemple and Van Doren play in an honest game. They were both brilliant, they didn't need the cheating and the BS. However, Enright and Freeman didn't see that until it was too late.

Joe

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As to the OP's original point, what Enright and company were doing was NOT illegal. Nobody went to prison. It was more of an ethical and violation of the "public trust" issue. Television was in its infancy, and the rules, norms and guidelines for what was ethical in producing TV shows was totally unclear.

I tend to think the House Legislative Oversight Committee over-stretched its authority in this situation.

I suppose the FCC could have banned Enright and Berry from producing TV shows shown over public airways, but its another situation of over -stretching their authority.

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Surely it was a fraud perpetrated on the contestants who did not know about the rigging?
But you ARE Blanche ... and I AM.

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Surely it was a fraud perpetrated on the contestants who did not know about the rigging?
But you ARE Blanche ... and I AM.

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