but why?
Can someone articulate why stephane did what he did to his partner and camille? Was it all a game? was he jealous? of what? and if he loves her why doesnt he take her in the end?
Can someone articulate why stephane did what he did to his partner and camille? Was it all a game? was he jealous? of what? and if he loves her why doesnt he take her in the end?
I think his relationship with is female friend is most intriguing. We enter a conversation part way through when they are chatting about his relationship with Camille. He talks to the librarian it seems. If anyone knows the answer to his feelings for Camille it's her.
I've tried to work out what their conversation must have been about, was he saying he is in love with Camille - surely she wouldn't approve and take part in a conversation where he says he is seeking revenge on his boss/friend. So we must assume he was discussing the fact that he loved Camille and was trying to come to terms with it.
Also - don't forget the scene where he needs a glass of water - was that genuine - or was it for Maxime's benefit? He wasn't so cold and calculating to setup Maxime for heartbreaking was he? Though maybe he was - the whole film is setup by the opening dialogue - the dialogue is placed there for an important reason by the screenwriter. Don't forget - in the opening 5 minutes of a film we discover the protaganist and his problem. This 5 minutes showed only Stephane and Maxime and his dialogue about their cold relationship.
Conclusion - I have none. I just think the 3 moments that reveal something are the opening, the conversation he had with the librarian friend and the strange turn when he needed water. Was he in love with Maxime all along? Was he angry that this woman was not only a marriage breaker but she was ruining his business relationship with Maxime?
Very enjoyable film, but I feel a little empty at the end. I wish I'd knew French - I feel the clues will be in the original dialogue that I feel certain differed from the English.
neilprivate, those are great questions. You make great points--the glass of water, the convo with the woman friend, etc.
re: convo with woman pal, given how Stephane tended to answer only those questions he felt like answering (didn't seem to have the same sense of social obligation most of us has when asked a direct question -- generally people feel obliged to respect the questioner by acknowledging them in some way, but Stephane didn't seem to have that sense at all, several times when talking to his woman friend, Camille, or Maxime simply just didn't answer them) the conversation with his woman friend may have featured him speaking in vague terms and her answering in vague terms, questions asked and left hanging or skimmed over, the way many of the conversations in this film seemed to run. And in movies like this I'm never sure the degree to which the awkwardness/oddness I'm perceiving is my own lack of cultural understanding, the directorial style, poor translation/subtitling, etc.
> Was he angry that this woman was not only a marriage breaker but she was ruining his business relationship with Maxime?
I don't think so. He seemed fine with covering for Maxime for years. Not sure how you mean she was ruining the business relationship. If Stephane had left the couple to themselves their relationship surely wouldn't have intruded on Stephane's and Maxime's business.
Last thought: I'd almost forgotten what he said about his childhood, but it's important---that even his brothers and sisters found him sly and secretive, implying he was never emotionally connected to people, even as a child, even with his family.
“about his childhood, but it's important---that even his brothers and sisters found him sly and secretive, implying he was never emotionally connected to people, even as a child, even with his family.”
Good point about the childhood. Extremely important.
Men without brothers have the greatest chance to be free because they can’t understand jealousy.
And past childhood the adult family is the business.
Stefane is jealous of the other guy. His craft should make him more attractive than the other guy, once that is shown to not be as attractive to the woman, he’s humiliated. He wants to show him who is in charge. Get his order of the world back: what is right, in his mind, along the feeling of superiority (even though that it false).
When you act of out jealousy it’s always a third party you are trying to show, scorn, make feel; not what (it's not, sadly, even a person, it becomes an object) you are dealing with direcelty.
It never was about the woman.
And why the guy is fractured emotionally, he’s never acting directly for something or someone because of a positive emotion.
Stephane DID love Camille. This movie is about Stephane investigating relationships. Throughout the movie he becomes convinced that essentially the relationship that Camille wants will just wind up hurting him. When he is at the coffee shop with Camille while Camille is on a break from recording there is a couple feuding in the back and he tells Camille, "I fear for their future". He is also at a house at one point (I have trouble recalling who the old couple was, I believe it was Camille's old teacher and his wife) and as he drives up he hears them arguing. He eventually sees the old man fall down outside and he leaves. Right after he leaves the old woman comes outside to help the man up and he never gets to see this moment.
Now, to why he did this. If you remember, Camille told Stephane she loved him when he pulled the car over to the side of the road. The reason Stephane pulled the car over was because he almost got in an accident with another, which he only realized at the last second, and then swerved out of the way and pulled over to catch his breath. This near collision is the moment when Stephane realizes if he loves this girl and continues the way he has been going he will run into a relationship collision and everything will go to hell. Then when she says I love you he knows he can't tell her he also loves her.
Thank you to the smartest man I have ever known for explaining this movie to me. I'll have to go back to hear him talk about it again next year.
SPOILER ALERT
Stephane is gay and in love with Maxime not in love with Camille.
Camille is his rival.
See my synopsis off the main page for a lot more details.
Then thank me for ending this mystery in your life.
There is no homosexual feeling towards Maxime. The reason he rejected Camille was out of shame.
Stephane is a creature of habit. At the start of the film he has a structured and safe life which he can live with effortlessness. He has his safely walled in life, his workplace where he also lives, his platonic relationship with Helene - despite the fact she clearly would love it to be more than platonic, he has a mentor he loves and respects and he also has Maxime. As he says at the start they compliment each other and he enjoys Maxime's various dalliances and he lives vicariously through his exploits that Maxime readily regales him with.
Then Camile comes along and changes everything. He is visibly shocked when he finds that Maxime has been keeping this extra-marital affair secret and the fact Maxime has left his wife for her. After he meets Camille he senses her attraction to him and he devises a plan to rid himself of her and the changes she will bring to his life through the changes she will inevitably bring to Maxime's. So he plans to seduce her without loving her - hoping that will end her involvement in their lives.
This is going well until Maxime shows him the flat he plans to live with Camille in. It then hits him what he has done, what he could lose if he loses Maxime's friendship and also the fact that the seduction is not without love and attraction on his part which scares him just as much. At that moment he feels a great shame at what he has done. So he tries to extracate himself from the mess. He offers to go London where previously he shunned leaving the safety of his sanctuary but now it is his only salvation. He also tries to make himself look ugly in front of Camille but nothing works. Even Maxime has selflessly stepped aside for him which makes it worse for him. She is determined for it to happen so he tells her the truth of the first part of the plan to seduce her without love to punish Maxime for changing things in his life. He chooses not to tell her of his shame of what he did nor his true feelings of attraction for her.
He ends up losing both Maxime and Camille. He has humiliated Camille and has thrown Maxime's act of friendship back in his face. He leaves Maxime's business in shame and then goes to apologise to Camille not expecting or getting forgiveness. He moves on with his life.
Maxime and Stephane rebuild their friendship due to Lauchame's death and in the final scene he admits to Camille he does have love for Maxime and probably herself when he says that he thought he was the only one he had ever loved. It was shame at what he did that made him reject her and not a heart in winter.
I love this film, have done since it first came out. But I have to admit that the idea that Stephane was the one to blame in the film's love triangle has always bugged me as being grossly unfair.
I think that Stephane does love Camille, at least at the end, but that his reasons for rejecting her are complex. I think some of it is loyalty to Maxime, and some of it is his own reserve (he seems very shy), but some of it is simple self preservation. Camille is not following some deep, metaphysical passion. She's a beautiful artist, yes (so there is something there to love), but she's also a spoiled child who has already used her allure to get Maxime to leave his innocent family for her and now has decided to bag his friend as well. When she doesn't get what she wants, she throws a titanic and very public hissy-fit and tries to wreck his life (with some success). Not too classy.
Maxime, meanwhile, has absolutely no problem with leaving his family for Camille, and gets angry at Stephane for "humiliating" Camille by rejecting her. Well, actually, Camille humiliated herself by throwing herself at her boyfriend's business partner in front of everybody, but hey, who's counting that? Especially ironic is Maxime's insistance that he's angry at Stephane because he was willing to step aside for Camille and Stephane to get together--give me a break! Considering what flakes *both* Maxime and Camille are, jealousy would no doubt rear its ugly head the second Stephane tried to start something with Camille and he'd still have been out a business partner, only in that scenario, he'd have conveniently been cast as the bad guy. When he refused to play the game, he got cast as the bad guy, anyway.
In other words, it's an emotional trap. Probably not one deliberately set (neither Camille nor Maxime strikes me as that subtle), but a trap nonetheless. And the fact that Stephane appears to have recognized it as such didn't help him one bit. But at least he was able to stay out of Camille and Maxime's messy relationship thereafter.
Now, this doesn't negate the idea that Stephane does seem to love Camille at the end (after having an emotional awakening when his older friend dies), or that he is a bit of a cold fish who has negotiated life by keeping his distance from others. I just question whether Stephane is really the one in this situation with the psychological pathology that is longest and hardest to pronounce. Maxime, for example, comes across as a classic narcissist and Camille seems a very poster child for Borderline Personality Disorder.
The Snowleopard's homepage http://www.geocities.com/rpcv.geo/other.html
Stephane has schizoid personality disorder.
It means that while he may love Camille and tries to approach her in the beginning, trying to get closer to her, the intimicy that follows when she is receptive to him, is for him like running into a brick wall. He simply cannot open up emotionally yet he knows she will expect it of him. Best, then, to stop seeking contact with her and create distance.
At that point, of course, she is already interested and in love with him, and cannot understand why he would first seek contact and then withdraw. She obviously thinks he's playing some kind of game and gets upset when he refuses to respond even when she is making all the moves.
His telling her that Maxime is not his friend fits Schizoids perfectly. Schizoids are not interested in most relationships and would certainly not be eager to admit having any kind of feelings for people close to them, even if they have them.
His relationship with his mentor is a simple one. His mentor does not make many demands on him, and accepts him as he is.
A lot of Schizoids show a lot of love to animals because animals can't hurt them and betray them, and don't make demands. Stephane's passion is music.
@snowleopard: I think you really get this film and its characters. Thanks for a great summation.
@snowleopard: I think you really get this film and its characters. Thanks for a great summation.
This was a great read. Food for thought.
share First you wrote a great synopses and I can only see the poster below your post who may have just as good a commentary as yours...It could have been out of shame as to why Stephane did what he did to Camille. It is so obvious he was jealous of Maxime's relaatio0nship and wanted to destroy it. The one thing in your comments I feel you may have wrong was she without having experience him in bed or some kind of physical bonding was not a life time setback for her. I don't feel she and Maxime will crash and burn like a few other people think as well.
Also, I cannot understand how so many did not see the love Max had for her. It was really from the heart. That is why she went back to him there love will grow in time and it was the true love story of the film.
Both of you gave the best interpretations of the film and it could be either one.
So many are throwing if he loved her or not around, and it makes no difference to me because it is shown to be a maybe yes maybe no type of thing, but I sure did not see it.
Camille and Stephane see love differently.
For Camille love is hot, immediate and comes from the subconscious. It should, no, must be obeyed, to the total disregard of the feelings of others (after the recording is done she tells Regine that she knows she is expected to dine with friends but in the most casual manner says no). This is the source of her capacity for performance art (Lachaume - "you sense a true temperament"). She assumes that this view is fundamentally human and normal. She falls deeply for a man, perhaps for the first time in her life, is shocked by the depth of the emotion, and discovers that Stephane is immune to her charms. All she is immediately capable of is turning up the heat.
For Stephane love is loving-kindness. In fact he considers physical love can be very beautiful when written about as intellectual art interpretation but otherwise its importance is overstated (scene in the bookshop). Love is cool, respectful and without limit. Love between two individuals considers the feelings of others and frequently places those feelings above any personal desires. Even though he is not in love with Camille, when he discovers that she feels deeply rejected he compassionately tries very hard to move towards her position.
My extrapolation is that Camille and Maxime will tire of each other. At that point she must make a choice - happiness or career. Stephane is the love of her life and she will be compelled to recognize the fact that a relationship with him on his terms will give her a long and deeply satisfying love, at least until he discovers the love of his life. He thinks that love is his craft, but he may, in his turn, be in for a shock. Let us hope for them both that he discovers this love in their children.
i like your interpretation most
shareI'm not sure if this is what you are getting at, but I felt on a rewatch that the ending suggests Stephane and Camille may yet still get together at some point. I had incorrectly remembered it as a sort of final goodbye, but he says he will "bien sur" come and see her when she plays in Paris, and then they have a somewhat long kiss on the lips, not just a friendly "bise".
shareStephane's feelings toward Maxime are complex. He's resentful of Maxime's lack of interest in his personal life,judgmental of Maxime's treatment of his wife, and envious of Maxime's easy-going nature. At first, Stephane is horrified to listen to Maxime's callous description of dumping his wife for Camille, and I think as an act of malice, Stephane decides to seduce Camille away from Maxime, only to find out she's more than he bargained for.
In the beginning, Camille clearly doesn't understand or accept Stephane, but slowly his attention begins to envelop her, and she finds herself seduced. He, in turn, is attracted to her beauty, her skill, and the moments when he feels her attraction toward him. Unfortunately for Camille, she drives Stephane into retreat mode with her demands and spectacular behavior. Stephane is used to navigating the world with his mind and often feels misunderstood and unappreciated, and his relationship with Camille feeds his insecurities. Had Camille been less rejecting of his attempts to share (no one's like that!, etc), and been a bit more subtle (let's get a drink, instead of "I got a room..."), the relationship would have gotten off the ground. The attraction was certainly there, but so was fear.
It is not enough to trick, your best friend must also go home alone.
Another good analysis.
shareThis is an astonishing thread, all seven pages of extraordinarily deep thinking and feeling. So fitting for such an extraordinary, astonishing and deeply-thought (and felt) film.
shareThe hints on Stéphane's peculiar behavior are in the scenes which he came to his dad's house and overheard the argument between his dad and his lover(?); then, the scene where his dad talked to him while they were taking a walk in the wood; and, the scene at the end when he talked with Camille at the café.
A good movie with exceptional acting job from all cast members.