MovieChat Forums > 1492: Conquest of Paradise (1992) Discussion > Columbus Did NOT Discover America

Columbus Did NOT Discover America


Erik the Red discovered Greenland in 985, and his son Leif Erikson, equally ambitious, did not want to be overshadowed by his famous father. He had heard about Bjarne Herjolfson who had sailed out of course in 985, and seen a landmass not far away. He did not, unfortunately, go ashore to investigate. That would have made him the first white man to set foot on North-American soil. But he told people about what he had seen, and around the year 1000, Leif Erikson decided to sail across the ocean himself. He was around 30 years old. The journey did not take many days, but many ships were lost nontheless. They spotted land and went ashore. They would build a settlement that lasted at least 15 years, which means that, in all probability, the first white person to be born in North-America was a Viking.
They had at first a good relationship with the Native tribes, but after a while they turned hostile, and made any attempt to stay put even more difficult. The Vikings had to fight the "Skralingar" on terms that were anything but equal.
After Leif Erikson returned home, he became the ruler of Greenland. He died around 1021.

All this means that the Italian was actually the third person to "discover" the New World. Bjarne Herjolfson and Leif Erikson were there 300 - THREE HUNDRED - years before Columbus made his journey.
Leif Erikson should be the one who is celebrated, and be given his rightfull place in history as one of the most successfull discoverers ever.


Note -
I use the word "Discover" for want of something better, since you cannot actually discover a place where people have lived for thousands of years.

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Word!

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The Vikings may have been the first non-natives to set foot on on the North American continent, but Columbus' "discovery" means a lot more to history. Mainly because his discovery of the Americas was followed up by successful colonization, whereas the Viking colonies failed, and the Norse being a non-literate culture had no way to preserve this record beyond human memory. So within a few generations the Viking discovery was reduced to a legend.

The point being, the Leif Erikson's discover was rather meaningless in the context of world history, since it didn't really amount to anything at all. Columbus derseves the credit he gets, because he did discover something that no one really knew about anyways, since it was forgotten.

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[deleted]

hej jetfx,

while you are absolutely correct in columbus being the first european in the western hemisphere which lead to the conquering of the indigenous peoples and the establishment of long lasting european settlements, you are definitely off base here:

"Columbus derseves the credit he gets, because he did discover something that no one really knew about anyways, since it was forgotten."

the basque, breton, and portugese fishermen were fishing the banks off nova scotia and newfoundland from the time of columbus and most likely, even earlier. there was word of mouth and written pre-columbian narratives and maps of lands to the west. there was trade, immigration, wars and other contact throughout all of europe and there is evidence of this knowledge being disseminated throughout the seafaring community. columbus was influenced by this, as he was also greatly infuenced by the travels of marco polo.

http://www.wordplay.com/tourism/portuges.html
http://www.doucetfamily.org/heritage/Fishermen.htm

"the Norse being a non-literate culture had no way to preserve this record beyond human memory"

apparently you are disregarding runic old norse. the old norse alphabet goes back to leif erickson days. while there is no current evidence of written accounts of the pre-columbian viking settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows (and maybe others in north america) ................. the norse had long previously colonized the shetlands, faroes, iceland and greenland. and there is hard archeological evidence that the norse had occupied and conducted commerce in north america 500 years before columbus.

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/literature/text/literature.htm
http://www.ravensgard.org/gerekr/runicbib.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Anse_aux_Meadows

it is extremely hard to believe that the visits to the "new world" by Bjarni Herjólfsson and Leif Erickson were isolated, solitary incidents and that this knowledge was kept a secret from the rest of the world.

i just hope that you are not a school teacher.



A Man's a Man for A' That

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Thank you Christopher Columbus for discovering America for the civilized world!

I feel sorry for people who dont drink
wake up in the morning and thats the best they feel all day

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What's so civilized about it?

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What's so civilized about it? Western civilization has been and always will be the model definition of civilized

I feel sorry for people who dont drink
wake up in the morning and thats the best they feel all day

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With the cross in the one hand and the gun in the other they went about and did very uncivilized things.

Our concepts of being civilized stems from the enlightment era, and still after that civilizations usually conduct itself against its ideals.

Values works on individual basis, not collective one.

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columbus was EVIL!

I haven't seen this movie yet, so I don't know how it portrays him, but columbus was an evil person. do some research outside of movies and outside or your elementary school classrooms, because they all portray him to be some sort of hero; he's not. He killed and enslaved entire populations. There are entire tribes of people that are now extinct due to his actions. And he was nowhere near the first person to "discover" new land either, he was just the first white one. There have been numerous accounts of people from Africa and other places around the globe coming here long before columbus was even born. There's a book called Lies My Teacher Told Me by James Loewen that deals with this and other myths we are taught in our society, check it out please.

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[deleted]

Me being Minnesotan am a firm believer in Vikings coming first but I give props to Columbus for establishing colonies succsessfully and Amerigo Vespucci for finding what is today the strongest nation on Earth.

I'm running this monkey farm now and I wanna know what the *beep* your doing with my time?!?

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viking discover it but they couldn't hold it so they never were, columbus discover it and was able to hold it

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Well, there's 'not so new' evidence that it was impossible for the Vikings to make it over to this side of the hemisphere due to the following main obstacle:

1) the type of ships they sailed were not rigged with sails that could address/handle the kind of water currents you'll find so far up the Atlantic (look up any 'Sailing Beginners' book to understand the situation). The currents are extremely weak that far north and they would need a motorized way to come further south towards the Canadian lands. It really begs the question; how were the logistics addressed back then when in fact, the ships were rigged with '1' paralized sail and a big crew to row, a crew that needs water and food. Remember, there were no marinas or depot points all over the coasts back then.

Anyway, according to evidence compiled in a book written in Portuguese (the English and other language versions should be out by the beginning of the summer), titled "Cristovão Colombo era (100%) Português" (Cristovao Colon was (100%) Portuguese), packed solid with facts regarding this subject matter and other different theories, suggests that, at the very least, by late 15th and throughout the 16th Centuries, the Portuguese were already here, way before Columbus (who's actually Salvador Fernandes Zarco, son of the man who discovered the islands of Madeira) and that a group of brothers, the Corte Real family, whose father discovered the Azores, had been here. Since sometime went by and the first boy did not return home, a brother came looking for him, having the same faith somewhere and so on. Additionally, DNA evidence might indicate that the crew/sailors actually mingled with the natives (who wouldn't when there are so many uncovered breasts and vagina running around) and took on new lives as local 'American Indians', even as tribal chiefs, as evidenced by the latin language origin of many words used in their vocabulary but might have also had a wish to go back home to Portugal but either lost their ships or not enough of them survived to make a long trip back home. There's a rock named the Dighton Rock (www.DightonRock.com) in Dighton, the state of Massachusetts in USA, that has carvings on it that makes this theory a possibility. And that the areas North of it, such as Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and so on, were also, at least from time to time, occupied by the Portuguese before the Corte Real family came accross. This evidence comes from some of the animals that were already here and are not native to this land; in fact, they come from the southwestern area of Europe.

Succeeding at making it accross to this side of the ocean was made possible only due to the Portuguese technological advancements of the time, that being the collection of square sails per ship, which is the only way to 'tackle' the winds coming from the Gulf Stream in the western Atlantic Ocean. Remember, the wind and current flows towards Europe and the only way to make it over to the western side of the Atlantic Ocean is to go South, shift the sails again and thus, come up the American Coast.

Also remember that this was during the time of the Inquisition in Spain and Portugal and all of the Jewish Faith were given an ultimattum to either convert, leave or face the consequences. Also, keep in mind the competition that was going on between Spain and Portugal and the new lands being discorvered; lands full of riches and things never seen before. It is suggested that maps, contracts, etc., things we normally refer to as evidence, were falsely prepared in other to keep the other from discovering the other's lands and recent acquisitions, transactions, at least for as long as they could. Need I mention the nature of Market competition, something that's remained in place to this day? Espionage was huge at the time, probably more than during Hitler's era. Well, I can't really sit here and go through it all; I guess one must read the entire book to understand.

The Portuguese Director, Manoel de Oliveira, is currently wrapping up a film adaptation of this book and the premiere is scheduled for June 07 in USA. The movie is "Christopher Columbus - the Enigma". Although Master deOliveira claims it's not a scientific, historical or patriotic film, not even biographical but rather a romantic fiction, the book is a result of decades of research, including DNA tests, all evidence that will be hard to refute.

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It is not impossible for the vikings to sail over there. I have read the Icelandic sagas that were written 1200 and something and it describes in detail where they went, it describes the natives and everything. I think this is proof of them going there first, because how else would they know about this land to the west? and it's culture? And you should maybe pick up a map when you read this, the viking called Leifur Eiríksson discovered North America around the year 1000, when he sailed from Iceland to Greenland, and from there to Canada and then to North America.

If you don't believe this then read this wikipedia article about Leif Ericson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Ericson

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A great part of the archives about the Portuguese discoveries were lost forever in the 1755 great earthquake, tsunami and ensuing fires that destroyed Lisbon. A number of theories about the discovery of the new world state that portuguese sailors may have found it before Christopher Columbus. Also, some state that he was born in a portuguese town called Cuba (still in existence), and that he named the island of Cuba after his place of birth, founded many years before his journey.

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There were two Norwegians (a married couple) who went to where they thought the Vikings had landed. They walked along the coast, asking fishermen if they had seen anything strange - ie. traces of an old settlement. Lo and behold, one day they met a guy who had indeed wondered about a certain place. It turned out that this was in fact the Viking settlement - and there was, and still is, no question about that. It is an established fact. To argue against scientific proof is futile. Many perished during the sail, but it didn't take long for them to make the trek. Their craftmanship was amazing, even for todays standard. They are renowned for their expertise as shipbuilders - if any ship back then would have made the trip, it would have been a Viking-ship.

Please remember that they laid the foundation for Russia, they sailed to Africa, they ruled England for a very long time, they went to the Medditerranean, and beyond - so crossing the ocean and building a settlement in North America is not only feasable - it is a fact.

Someone said: "and the Norse being a non-literate culture" - which is quite astounding, since the earliest (discovered) runes are about 2000 years old. There are around 3500 runestones in Sweden alone, and the height of runecarving occured during the time of Leif's discovery of North America.
Note that carving in pieces of wood were more common than carving in stone - but most of these messages have been destroyed during the centuries.

Saying they were illiterate is like claiming the Egyptians didn't know how to build pyramids.



You have a lot of unresolved indigo in your aura !
Yes, I know. It is a problem.

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Gunpowder.

So, actually the Chinese conquered America :)... with their invention of Gunpowder in the Spaniard's hands.

I've heard of Chinese expeditions from 7-8-th century AD, which is even earlier.

EveryOne is the One...

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Columbia or Nicaragua is the strongest nation on Earth? really?

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[deleted]

It portrays him as good but those behind his expedition as the evil ones, i.e. the nobles, the greedy nobles. This is for the sake of making an entertaining movie, you can't have your protagonist be evil, this is cinema after all. Take it easy and enjoy, don't try to learn your history from movies, realize it's entertainment and enjoy, chill.

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Wrong. This is commercial cinema for the masses. There are plenty of serious movies with unlikable lead characters.

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http://mulhollandcinelog.wordpress.com/

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Gee, thanks... I think I learned this in elementary school back in the 1950's. Did you think you were making some huge revelation here?

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Yeah, I'm a genius! C'mon, Wikipedia has this written somewhere too. I'm just adding up to the discussion, since no one focused on this.

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It should also be pointed out that Columbus had no idea that he'd found "the new world." That phrase came later. He died believing Cuba and Hispanola to be China and Japan.

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[deleted]

Vikings didn`t discover America, although they did discover Iceland. They simply arrived to the other shore. Neither locals "discovered" their own continent. It takes maps, press conferences and new trails for traders to "discover" any place.

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Columbus didn't discover America; he never set foot on the main continent. He discovered the Caribbean isles. The longboats of the vikings could not make a voyage across the Atlantic, but they could certainly sail from Greenland to Newfoundland and from there to the North American continent itself. There is indeed archeological excavations proving they settled there, but unlike the Spanish and Portugese explorers sailing west in the 15th and 16th centuries, they did not seek land to claim for the crown, so to speak. The viking communities of Greenland and Newfoundland were largely independent from Scandinavia and Iceland for several reasons, one of them being the fact that Eric the Red had left Iceland in a hurry around 982 because of some unfortunate murders. The little trade there was (whale- and walrosteeth in exchange for tools and timber), was with Iceland and not Scandinavia.

Another thing is that Columbus himself believed he had landed on the isles north of Japan to begin with; and later China. Actually, there is quite a lot of evidence that Chinese sailors actually 'rediscovered' America a hundred years or so before Columbus: documents, artifacts etc. found in Shanghai a few years ago.

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And no doubt there are some Afrocentrics out there who think America was discovered by the brothers.

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read 1421: The Year China Discovered the World

Gavin Menzies website: http://www.gavinmenzies.net/

his book 1434 gives a very intersting look at the pre-colombian world maps, showing the western hemisphere.

take a look at the map in the dodges palace in venice !!!!!!!!!


A Man's a Man for A' That

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History Changes all the time.
But all of you are missing one thing.

Eastern Asians have gotten to the new world way before and fastly adapted to most living conditions. This is way before written times. This is probably thousands of years before Common Era. If you were to compare Mongolians to Native Americans you would be surprised how much they have in common. You can't blame a group of people for dramatic changes. We all derive from the same gene pool.

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too true !!!!!!!!



A Man's a Man for A' That

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[deleted]