MovieChat Forums > Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) Discussion > Was the good guy bad guy thing meant to ...

Was the good guy bad guy thing meant to be a surprise?

posted 6 years ago by Supratad (139)
16 replies | jump to latest

I recall this film coming out back in the 90's (when I was young and full of British spunk) and seem to recall that Arnie being the good guy this time was public knowledge, possibly part of the marketing of the film.
Yet the initial set up of scenes with BIIIIG T-800 appearing and getting clothes, and average human looking bloke doing the same and both converging on John, appears to me like there was an idea to surprise the audience with the revelation of the new T-1000.

Its only when the T-800 draws his shotgun and says "get down" to John that we, the audience know he is not here to kill John, or at least that what it seems it should be. Is my memory faulty or was Arnie being the good guy well known?

[–] HorrorMetal (873) 6 years ago

When I first watched this, the fact that the T-1000 killed that cop at the beginning made it blatantly clear that he was the villain.

[–] Supratad (139) 6 years ago

Although in hindsight, we presume he "knifed" the cop, you don't actually see that and it looks and sounds as though he might have just punched him in the gut and incapacitated him ... as a human, new Kyle Reese type character would do.
On the first ever viewing, you wouldn't even know that this new bad guy could change form into "stabbing weapons"

[–] HorrorMetal (873) 6 years ago

Yeah, good point.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Seriously?? It didn't look like but it surely sounded like he knifed him - that sound of the cop making that horrible noise is not the result of a gut punch, believe me.

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

Well at that point we had no idea who this guy was or what he was capable of (making knives out of his fingers). For a first time viewer the logical explanation is that he just punched the guy in the gut and knocked him out.

I personally think they should have gone with their initial idea of having Michael Biehn play the T-1000 and for the first segment we are under the impression that Arnie is evil again and Biehn is good (and not have the trailers ruin this), and it's literally not until Arnie says "Get Down" that we the audience realize what's really going on.

[–] ExTechOp (2770) 6 years ago

We don't know for sure the T-1000 killed the cop, and definitely don't know that the T-1000 stabbed the cop.

Interesting tidbit: the first time we see the T-1000 stabbing anyone, it's taken the form of "Janelle," who stabs Todd to shut him up.

According to the production notes, T-1000's knife-arm was meant to have been a sampled extension of the butcher knife "Janelle" was using to cut food at that time.

That said, the T-800 already exposited the T-1000's ability to form cutting tools, so it's not a stretch to imagine it could already do so when it stole the cop's gun.

[–] ebhaynz (3751) 6 years ago

It was pretty much well known that Arnie was the good guy..It was a suspenseful scene where everybody knew what was going on except John, which made it all work.

[–] Supratad (139) 6 years ago

That's how I remember it and agree the scenes work well, but every time I've watched it since, there's been a nagging doubt that maybe we were supposed to not know. I don't know, maybe it was Cameron's intention but the studio punted the idea of Arnie as the good guy as by then, he was always the good guy,

[–] TandyMan (11327) 6 years ago

It was definitely known he was a good guy. I'm pretty sure Arnie was on Leno talking all about it. The only indication that might not be so was when that first teaser dropped of all the Terminators being mass produced.

...damn, that might have still been Johnny years. I swear it was Leno though. Maybe it was one of his guest hosting spots.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Maybe when the script was written we weren't supposed to know and there was a hope they'd be able to keep it secret in marketing - but they didn't.

Either way, I don't think it matters whether we know because the work is so good regardless that we feel what John and Sarah are going through.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

But kudos for "being full of British spunk" - that conjures an image...

[–] Heisenberg (6730) 6 years ago

I remember it being marketed and targeted at kids, almost a fun family movie for kids from 9 up.
That's unfortunate, but it's what happened here.
Arnie was sold as the good guy with a shotgun that everybody can root for!
I think he even said the phrase "I swear I won't kill anybody" in the trailer.

Very unfortunate because, like you noticed, it could have worked as a surprise in the script.
Very easily and very effectivelly, because he looks more menacing than the t1000, who's also a cop.
Well, pretty much none of that happened in the end. Too bad!

[–] ExTechOp (2770) 6 years ago

I read the script and production notes (published as a companion in the early days before the web was widely used)

The good-guy T-800 was meant to be a surprise. The T-1000 was kept deliberately Reese-like up to that moment

It was the studio that later decided to reveal it in trailers as a marketing ploy

I did have one friend who say it without seeing previews - it floored him. I had to admit I envied him that

[–] Supratad (139) 6 years ago

Yeah, that sounds like it would have been amazing to experience, that way round.

The T-1000, had he been another human Reese like character would have appeared a bit more savvy and mission focused than Reese did, who was a bit shambolic and sometimes panicky really. Your friend might have been thinking "this guys got his sh** together this time"

[–] ExTechOp (2770) 6 years ago

That's exactly what he thought in pretty much those words

We saw "Terminator" together in college, and both became immediate fans of Michael Biehn with his frantic energy. So he was actually disappointed that Robert Patrick was so even-tempered. But he figured, this being a subsequent mission, Kyle Reese's successor would be more professional and confident.

No question though that was the intent. Heck, when the T-800 first encounters John in the hallway, there's a close-up of him crushing roses, just to make him seem that much more "evil."

In fact, it was only during actual production that Cameron decided to show the T-800 grabbing John and shielding him while the T-1000 empties its gun.

In the original script, the T-1000 gets blown to the ground while John escapes. Cameron figured if he did his job TOO well, the audience would STILL not realize Arnold was the good guy.

[–] Hans-Wilhelm (1372) 6 years ago

I remember all of the marketing and promos at the time stated clearly that Arnold was playing a good Terminator this time around and it was advertised and marketed that way. They never used it as a "shock" to the audience.

I knew going in Arnold was the good T and T-1000 was the bad T.

It would be neat to think about what it would be like to go in expecting Arnold to be the same type of killer T again but to be shocked that he is a protector. I bet it would have been blast to sit there with your jaw on the floor thinking "NO WAY!"