MovieChat Forums > Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991) Discussion > Was the forced mind-meld 'rape'?

Was the forced mind-meld 'rape'?

posted 11 years ago by Monk_Drunk
24 replies | jump to latest

I had a discussion with someone the other day who was insistent that Spock forcing a mind-meld on Valeris was essentially rape.

I'm not sure I agree, though. It was a gross violation, no doubt about it, and it's glossed over a little bit too hastily by the crew considering the amount of distress it clearly caused Valeris. But I would have said that rape is an explicitly sexual act, and that's not what Spock was doing. Severe mental torture seems like a more appropriate way to describe it.

Compare it with Shinzon getting inside Troi's mind in Nemesis, which clearly was rape, or attempted rape at least, because he tried to take Riker's place during their lovemaking.

Thoughts?

[–] bjlevine 11 years ago

Actually, I would have thought that Troi would have appreciated the change.

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[–] CjjjHill 11 years ago

If you play that scene, slip in to something more comfortable, put on some soft music, and close your eyes... she sounds like she is having a GREAT time.

[–] karawolf 10 years ago

LOL... I thought she sounded a little orgasmic, too...however, the thought of someone forcibly melding their mind with another unwillingly does sound kinda "rapey".

[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 10 years ago

I had a discussion with someone the other day who was insistent that Spock forcing a mind-meld on Valeris was essentially rape.

I'm not sure I agree, though. It was a gross violation, no doubt about it, and it's glossed over a little bit too hastily by the crew considering the amount of distress it clearly caused Valeris. But I would have said that rape is an explicitly sexual act, and that's not what Spock was doing. Severe mental torture seems like a more appropriate way to describe it.

I've never thought of that before, but you and your friends make an interesting point; it is a violation, in this case of the mind as opposed to the body.

Rape is at its core an act which violates an individual's physical integrity; the sexual part simply relates to the manner in which this gross act is undertaken, but the significant element is the violation.

Perhaps no laws had been drafted to deal with mind-melding as yet (although since the Vulcans had been living alongside humans for two hundred years or so, that's hard to fathom) but I'm not sure mind-melding could be justified under any circumstances. Even torturers at Guantanamo Bay would presumably stop short of rape in order to elicit 'essential anti-terrorist' information.

[–] WDformerWB 10 years ago

I'd actually forgotten about this scene, having seen the movie only once or twice many years ago. It's on the SyFy channel today so I watched it again for the first time since then.

It's a very uncomfortable scene to watch especially once Valeris begins exhibiting clear signs that it's painful. Though rape is a crime using genitalia as the means of violation, it's forcing something painful and humiliating to happen to another's body against their will. I'd call it mind rape since the physical body organ that is being violated and caused pain is the brain. Whether Valeris submitting to (not fighting) a meld upon orders from her mentor/superior officer constitutes meaningful consent is another question. It did make me cringe and lose a little respect for Spock, who as Trek characters go I've practically idolized over the years.

[–] bjlevine 10 years ago

Especially considering that Sulu gave them the same information they were looking for 5 minutes later.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] kerryedavis 10 years ago

Spock did the logical thing as always. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or one). Had they not forced the information out of Valaris, many innocent people (including the President) would have been killed. She was participating in an evil conspiracy that needed to be exposed. Unpleasant as it may have been, it was ultimately necessary to ensure the good of the many. I lost no respect for Spock for doing what he did. It was the Vulcan thing to do!

And it was, and should continue to be, the human thing to do as well. I get creeped out by reading comments from people who would apparently be okay with the Federation president among others being killed quickly, perhaps a great war to follow with millions more deaths on BOTH sides, but hey, just so long as Spock doesn't "rape" anybody, whew! Please. Get a grip, people.

[–] axeman97 10 years ago

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. I first saw this when it came out in 1991; I was nine years old and thus not exactly knowledgeable of the evil aspects of life--rape obviously one of the worst of these evils. Now that I'm an adult--and thus having learned about the darker sides of life--I have to admit, that scene is very difficult to watch.

As someone who now studies, examines, and analyzes history, policy, politics, national security and foreign affairs for a living, I love Star Trek VI for its themes and storyline/subplots (always have.) Indeed, for those of us whose generational "coming of age" was defined on 9/11, it has a very dark and ugly undertone of the usage of enhanced interrogations and what defines the difference between enhanced interrogation and outright torture, and all the ethical, moral, and legal debates such practices have now generated.

But that scene where Spock rapes Valeris--just to get some information--went too far: especially since, after realizing that she does not know where the new peace conference is to be held, Spock says, "contact Excelsior...she'll have the coordinates."

Why didn't Spock just do that in the first place?!?!
I think it's because Spock's human side--the emotional one---wanted revenge for being betrayed by Valeris in such a way; after all, he had FAR more to lose in this whole mess than the rest of the crew. Spock simply wanted to inflict pain on Valeris for her transgression against him, his two dearest friends (one of which lost his wife and son to the Klingons), his shipmates, and the possibility of galactic peace.

[–] Blueghost 10 years ago

by Monk_Drunk » Mon Mar 17 2014 19:30:26
IMDb member since May 2005
I had a discussion with someone the other day who was insistent that Spock forcing a mind-meld on Valeris was essentially rape.

I'm not sure I agree, though. It was a gross violation, no doubt about it, and it's glossed over a little bit too hastily by the crew considering the amount of distress it clearly caused Valeris. But I would have said that rape is an explicitly sexual act, and that's not what Spock was doing. Severe mental torture seems like a more appropriate way to describe it.

Compare it with Shinzon getting inside Troi's mind in Nemesis, which clearly was rape, or attempted rape at least, because he tried to take Riker's place during their lovemaking.

Thoughts?

Are you serious? Get real.

Was there any sexual contact? Did Spock beat or tear her clothes off? No?

Case closed.

You can probably bring up a case for psychiatric abuse, but she seemed okay so what would you tell a judge or prosecutor?

Where do people come up with these idiotic ideas?

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] thesnowleopard 10 years ago

It's subjective. It ultimately depends on how narrowly you choose to define "rape". In the broadest sense of the word, I would say that it was a rape (violation/personal invasion). It was not rape in the sexual context of the term. But if he had done this to an innocent person, I think people would be more inclined to view it as akin to rape. The psychology of rape suggests that it isn't about "sex" at all, but about power, control, and victimization. Sex is the method that the rapist uses to achieve this. It is a means to an end, but not the end goal in itself. Rapists get off on the fact that they are violating someone against their will. Doing this in the form of a mild-meld would be akin to rape in my opinion (based on intent of course).

It makes me uncomfortable to broaden the definition of rape this much. For one thing, there's a tendency to overemphasize the power and control aspect, which lets too many people who just don't feel like recognizing someone else's boundaries (or even that your sex partner is a person) when they want to have sex with someone off the hook. Yeah, there's an aspect of power and control to it, but it's also about someone getting their rocks off and imposing their sexual fantasy/needs on someone else as if that other person were an object.

For another, there's nothing sexual about what goes on between them. Calling every single traumatic thing that can happen to a person "rape" puts rape into an unrecoverable category of trauma all by itself where it does not belong. Getting raped (or sexually assaulted in any way) sucks, but so does getting beaten to a bloody pulp and the latter isn't a sexual act.

I would term this more an intense interrogation shading into torture. I also think there's an important aspect that it is in context of Valeris' interaction with the rest of the crew. She smugly calls them on their hypocrisy, saying that they feel the same way as she does about the Klingons, and that they've betrayed the Federation (to justify her betraying her fellow crewmembers). But she doesn't truly believe they are as savage and angry as all that. She's convinced they will be too wimpy and peace-loving to force her to give up information, even though you'd think an ugly interrogation would be the logical result of her assessment of them as revenge-driven dinosaurs. It's intended to show how she underestimated them and unwisely played them for fools, including her mentor.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] beefmalone 10 years ago

She was definitely violated.

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