MovieChat Forums > Angel Heart (1987) Discussion > A big problem with this movie (SPOILER)

A big problem with this movie (SPOILER)

posted 4 years ago by kungfulord (957)
32 replies | jump to latest

The real Angel body is destroy, Favorite extract the heart and eated and the soul of Angel go to Favorite's body (wich dont have much sense to me now that i wrote it but for the sake of this post let forget that for now and focus solely in this post point)

Ok so against is plan Favorite is drafted and suffer an accident in war affecting his face and creating amnesia (so far i understand the amnesia is a consequence of his war injury and not the ritual) now my problem here is why nobody recognice Favorite when they see Mickey Rourke not even is friends or his daugther who have seen him in pictures, not even Mickey Rourke recognice himself when he see Favorite's picture

In the movie is mention his face is change but is 1955 no way in that time and not even today you would be disfigured to the point of be unrecognizable even to the people who is close to you and not only you wouldn't have any scars but you would end looking like Mickey Rourke (well maybe 2020 Mickey Rourke but not 1987 Mickey Rourke)

Facial reconstruction is far from be this advanced in the present to be desfigured and end looking like a Hollywood star and in 955 wasn't much what science could do for a desfigured person ¿was the soul of favorite send to the body of a third person? they never mention nothing like it in the movie

Do i miss something? the memory from Favorites friends wherent deleted, he should still look like Favorite only with Angel's memory

[–] Seperatrix (1213) 4 years ago

I've wondered the same thing. It may be a case of "nothing to see here" -- don't peer too deep into a plot hole.

Unless . . . . there is a line toward the end of the film where Margret's father is hurriedly explaining the situation and offers: "Maybe he gained the guy's soul, but he still looked like Johnny to me."

The implication is that his appearance was altered to no longer look like Favorite after having eaten the soul, except to father Krusemark. I think.

Of course that begs the question, why didn't Krusemark recognize him?

Like I said before . . nothing to see here . . move along.

[–] Azi (1) 3 years ago

Because he had extensive facial plastic surgery, and left the hospital covered in bandages. The time line in this movie (that i adore and am trying to review it, but am actually doing straight up MATH to try and figure it out) is not very clear at ALL. Or doesn't make much sense. WHEN did Johnny Favorite sell his soul to the devil? Because he could not have become famous, drafted, and come back from WWII with amnesia in the twelve years between 1943-1955. If Epiphany was 17 in 1955, that would have made her born in 1938, but Johnny would have only been 21, and supposedly he was already famous by the time she was born. By the time he turned 25, in 1943, he was with Toots grabbing Angel for the ritual. The next 12 years he spent at war, getting in an accident/combat injury, and then being shipped home, where he underwent extensive facial reconstruction (they show the "real" Angel for a split second in a flashback in Times Square. THAT was the face that went off to war and came back disfigured), by Dr Fowler, and he ended up looking like Mickey Rourke. Then THAT Angel became the PI (did he have to train or are we suspending disbelief again?), after the Krusemark's let him go in in Times Square (covered in bandages??), the only place he might have recognized/remembered, or so was their reasoning. His dog tags were given to Margaret in the sealed vase Angel later finds at her apartment. SOOOO for me, the fact that his fame and Epiphany's birthday don't jibe makes my ADD soar to new heights. The only way to salvage it would be if Johnny sold his soul at around age 19, in 1936, then became famous in 2 years (and also a master satanist). I don't like it. My son is 21. He's master of being a sarcastic pain in the a**. And this also means he sold his soul to be famous for about 5 years?? It hardly seems worth it. If anyone has a better grasp on this...I would LOVE to be clued in. I have not read the book, but this is toooo much to ignore and just move along. It DOES work as far as age for Mickey Rourke (who was 35 when he played Angel, who was 37). Help!

[–] Seperatrix (1213) 3 years ago

Sounds like you've worked it out quite well. I had never thought about the Epiphany DOB and how that fit into the timeline. So good job.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a major objection to Johnny craving fame at age 19 and pulling the trigger to do whatever it took to get there. Many teenagers seem infatuated with become famous performers at an early age, and 19 is both young and adult at the same time. As far as his involvement with the occult, it's easy enough to allow, especially when one considers Margret was raised from childhood in such an environment. We don't have his backstory as far as that goes, but I find it easily permissible to assume that he had reached "master Satanist" status (with some help from father Krusemark no doubt) by the age of 19.

Though . . with further thought, I wonder. The photo of Favorite that Angel looks at early in the film, was that the photo of a 19-21 year old? I'd have to see it again, but it seems like Favorite was older in the photo.

[–] Docholiday321 (1) 3 years ago

I agree there are too many problems that are glossed over with just to make this twist, that prevents me to really praise this movie, and I want to. Great idea not executed.

I agree with op, no facial surgery in 55 is gonna make u look like Mackey Rourke. And great point also in when he was a maater sorcerer at 19. Way too young. But if you can forgive those, still some other problems.

1) favorite takes angels identity. Angel just returned from war for a medical reason. So why would angel be drafted again. You get sent home from war for a injury you are never called back. Easy fix could have said a car accident or something. But no person gets drafted twice after returning.

2) the dog tags. He just finds them at the fortunetellers house, how are they then with bonets body as he runs right over there?

3) ok so we know angel was the one who returned back from war with amnesia. How does he never upon learning of johnny think wow funny same thing happened to me. I dont remember my child hood, I went to war, I got amnesia. He never makes that connection. Did he forget he has no memory?

4) angel has no family that visited him when he returned from war?

Everything about the war blows apart upon speculation.

5) why didn't the ritual not work. Tell us the mistake he made.

There are a lot of good things, but everything involving why he doesn't know and the war makes no sense. Too much to ignore.

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

1) favorite takes angels identity.

Well he steals Angel’s soul, Johnny doesn’t believe himself to be Angel until later (after the injury which leaves him disfigured and without memories).

Angel just returned from war for a medical reason.

Do we know this? Isn’t Angel just some young soldier hanging around an event in Times Square?

So why would angel be drafted again.

He isn’t. Johnny is drafted (with Angel’s soul supposedly now inside him)

2) the dog tags. He just finds them at the fortunetellers house, how are they then with bonets body as he runs right over there?

Lucifer takes them there to bin the crime on Johnny. We see him take them from the fortune teller’s and then we see shaven De Niro sitting outside Johnny’s apartment dressed as a hell-nun.

3) ok so we know angel was the one who returned back from war with amnesia.

No we don’t, it’s Johnny that returns with amnesia, but he has the soul of Harry Angel within him (and possibly some ID) which leads him to believe he’s Harry Angel.

How does he never upon learning of johnny think wow funny same thing happened to me. I dont remember my child hood, I went to war, I got amnesia. He never makes that connection. Did he forget he has no memory?

Harry Angel was in Times Square, was probably drugged by Favourite and pals, then came to in a new body (Favourite’s) many years later… in Times Square. I mean, it’s very bizarre but with all the Voodoo… whatever.

But yes, you’d think ‘Angel’, who mysteriously lost several years and is in a new body, would a) have used his PI skills to find out WTF happened to him, and b) would hear bells ringing as soon as Lucifer started talking about the details of the case.

4) angel has no family that visited him when he returned from war?

Assuming Angel’s body was never found, surely the family would be totally weirded out by ‘the new Harry’ with a totally new face and body. Yeah, it doesn’t really work.

Everything about the war blows apart upon speculation.

How so?

5) why didn't the ritual not work. Tell us the mistake he made.

Well, it sort of worked in that it made Favourite believe he was Angel (with the help of some convenient amnesia), but it failed insofar as it didn’t prevent Lucifer finding him and reclaiming Johnny’s soul.

There are a lot of good things, but everything involving why he doesn't know and the war makes no sense. Too much to ignore.

Yes, it’s surprisingly ‘messy’ for such a quality classic with a prestigious director and cast.

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

(they show the "real" Angel for a split second in a flashback in Times Square. THAT was the face that went off to war and came back disfigured)

Can you explain what you mean by this? Johnny Favourite came back disfigured from the war. Harry Angel is the guy they captured in Times Square and murdered for the ritual.

Regarding Johnny’s age, where are you getting this information from?

[–] ribtin (151) 2 years ago

It's convoluted for sure, but a lot of the issues you point out are made clear in the novel. Like for example how Johnny Favorite used to be way into the occult long before he ate Angel's heart. How he grew to fame almost overnight, and still be very much into the occult. There's several mentions of how he would always have a human skull in his bag, while on tour. And how he came to be a detective by being taken in by an older detective who subsequently died and left Angel the business.

[–] Rusty (548) 2 years ago

Interesting. Was Angel a detective before he was killed, or did he become one when he resurfaced in the body of Johnny Favourite?

[–] ribtin (151) a year ago

No, Angel was not a detective. He was a soldier just home from the war when he was snatched by Favorite, drugged and tied up, before Favorite cut him up and ate his still beating heart.

Then, a little later when Favorite himself was sent off to war, he got shellshocked and forgot who he was. He was shipped back home and stuck in the mental asylum for a while, until Margaret Krusemark and her father came and got him out of there. The father paid the doctor to falsify the records so as to indicate that Angel was still there, and then they dropped the shellshocked guy off at the same place where Favorite had snatched Angel, as that would be the very last place he remembered before he was killed. And he just wandered off from there, lost in his own mind, until he somehow was taken in by this older detective and taught the ropes. Oh, and by the way, the name of the detective agency is "Crossroads". And the first time he meets Louis Cyphre, is at an address number 666. So the big reveal was never meant to be a surprise.

There are some more details in the sequel as well, but that book completely destroys the whole premise of the story and is a truly terrible read, so I highly advice against wasting your time on it.

[–] Rusty (548) a year ago

Thanks, might have to check out the book. I love the film but when you think about it the plot is ridiculous.

Like, surely Angel had a family and knew people who were shocked to see that he now has a completely different face and body?

What exactly was Favourite trying to achieve by eating Angel’s heart and stealing his soul? Does he now have two souls in his body, is the idea that the Favourite soul hides inside the Angel soul?

If so, it clearly doesn’t work because Lucifer found him with seemingly little to no effort 🤷🏻‍♂️

[–] ribtin (151) a year ago

Favorite's intention with eating the heart was to steal Angel's soul, so as to fool the devil. And it did work for a good while, as it's taken the devil 15 years to track him down.

And yes, he does have two souls in his body, which starts to conflict a little with memories he can't explain and such. Even more so in the sequel.

But even though Favorite steals Angel's soul, he does not steal his identity. So he does not go about living the life that Angel used to, but sets off on his own path. The real Angel would officially be mysteriously disappared, so there would be no friends or family to recognize the new Angel, unless they would bump into his credentials by chance. But even then, they would just think he is another totally unrelated person who just happens to have the same name as the guy who disappared.

More pressing however, are the people who used to know Favorite (after all, he used to be a semi-famous person with lots of fans) and might be able to see that this Harry Angel person has rather similar looks to the rising star of yesteryear. But that's where the damage to his face during the war and subsequent botched recronstruction surgery comes in, which makes him unrecognizable to everyone. This is also made a bigger deal out of in the sequel.

BTW: The sequel also gives the devil another motive for hunting down Angel/Favorite, but ugh... it's really bad. I can spoil it for you if you're interested, to save you the trouble of reading it yourself.

[–] Rusty (548) a year ago

Interesting, that makes some sense if ‘Angel’ is starting on a new path, the film could have done with mentioning that… but doesn’t ‘Angel’ find it weird that he can’t remember his early life? His family, his history? What does he say when he’s asked about these things?

He doesn’t remember being abducted, split open and cannibalised?

He runs a business so he must have ID, social security, a paper trail that leads back to your family tree..?

[–] ribtin (151) a year ago

As far as I can recall, I think he does not remember his childhood, and that this is also a major foreshadowing/hint in the story that he is not who he says he is.

And when he was abducted, they got him properly drunk and also drugged him, so he would not remember that either. However, there are short glimpses in the movie of a soldier standing in a crowd, and then turning around to face the camera... These are flashbacks to the time when Favorite first approached Angel, right before getting him drunk.

[–] Rusty (548) a year ago

If ‘Harry’ has no memory and no ID, how does he know himself to be Harry Angel?

[–] ribtin (151) a year ago

This is all down to his confusion and PTSD after the war. When he comes back, he doesn't know who he is. So he wouldn't know himself to be Favorite nor Angel.

However, when the Krusemarks drop him off at the place where Angel was abducted, is must have sparked some memory and he took up the life of Angel.

BTW, he actually has a whole bunch of different IDs which he uses in his detective work when he needs to pose as various characters. As far as I can remember, it's never specified how he would go about getting Angel's ID back, however even if he didn't manage to get it through official channels, he would have no problems just making it himself. This is also elaborated on in the sequel, where he falsifies a passport in order to flee to Paris.

[–] Rusty (548) a year ago

Very bizarre. If he has no idea who he is but suspects he might be Harry Angel, surely he would seek out confirmation of who he is - I mean where would he live?

Wouldn’t the people around him be like ‘who’s this guy claiming he’s Harry despite looking nothing like Harry, and having no ID to prove it?’

Plus, Rourke doesn’t behave like someone with the kind of deep psychic confusion we’re talking about, the guy would be almost like a mental patient, but instead he’s cocksure and charming.

I dig the film and I get that we have to give some leeway for the twist to work… but it really does unravel once you stop to think about it.

In the sequel, how is Harry/Favourite still out and about given that he got the electric chair and his soul went to hell?

[–] ribtin (151) a year ago

When he first wanders off from the Krusemarks, he wouldn't be "almost like a mental patient", but he would be an actual mental patient. After all, he did really just get busted out of some hospital.

So he would be extremely confused and almost empty inside at the very beginning. Maybe that is how he stumbled onto this older detective character who took pity on him (the book doesn't really tell).

However, the cocksure Angel that you see in the movie, would be some 15 years later, when he has had time to get back on his feet and gained some confidence through his trade as a detective.

He doesn't get the electric chair at the end though, but they only say he will:
"You're gonna fry Angel"
"Yes, I know. I'll burn in hell."
THE END

But the sequel picks up immediately after that, with Angel conveniently remembering he had a gun hidden in the bathroom. He then manages to kill one of the cops, and escape to France, where he goes to a lot of restaurants. And I do mean A LOT!

[–] Melton (4435) a month ago

BTW: The sequel also gives the devil another motive for hunting down Angel/Favorite, but ugh... it's really bad. I can spoil it for you if you're interested, to save you the trouble of reading it yourself.

Go on, what’s the crappy extra motive?

[–] ribtin (151) 3 days ago

Ok... you asked for it:

In Angel's Inferno, it is revealed that the devil is actually a just normal person who is appointed to serve as the ruler of hell. Only he's gotten tired of the job and is trying to get out of the deal. So he concocted this plan to make Harry Angel take his place. In other words: everything that happened was just a convoluted ploy to make Angel the new Lucifer. And to set this all up, the second book does a 180 on Harry's personality and turns him into a really unlikable asshole who goes around treating everyone he meets like trash.All of which kinda ruins the whole first book.

[–] Melton (4435) 3 days ago

What absolute gash! 🤣

It’s like when Ira Levin ruined Rosemary’s Baby with a crappy sequel book that said the first was ‘all a dream’ 🤦🏻‍♂️

What are these authors thinking..?

[–] R_Kane (15828) a year ago

“To beg the question” means to AVOID the question, not to invite the question. This phrase, and “within the hour,” is constantly misused by haircuts pretending to be news people on TV. They all have a degree in Clifs Notes.

[–] Seperatrix (1213) a year ago

If words can have several meanings certainly phrases can.

You had me curious, I thought maybe I'd gotten out of touch with what the phrase meant back whenever I learned it.

So I checked. You said that the phrase is "not to invite the question." But a quick online check (courtesy of "Oxford language dictionary") yields:

"raise a question or point that has not been dealt with; INVITE AN OBVIOUS QUESTION." As applied to a "fact or action."

I suppose I usually think of question begging as attempting to prove a proposition while assuming the proposition is true at the same time.

But your comment will have me thinking twice before I use the phrase again. Thanks for the trip down amnesia lane.

[–] subratjain1 (203) 3 years ago

I watched it yesterday and thought of the same thing. It's just a suspension of disbelief. This was a well made movie and I will let it pass :-)

[–] BourbonKing (5777) 3 years ago

There's a lot of wishy washy stuff not fully explained, but the gist of the story is that Harold Angel (Johnny Favorite) cheated death and used Lucifer's power to steal someone's soul against their will. Harold had to pay back Satan with his own soul to rectify this so Satan/Cyphre sets him up by killing off everyone who helped Harold/Favorite steal the boy's body and soul. The evil incantations and black magic involved though run counter the concept of God and the Devil though, but the movie doesn't dwell on this.

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

but the gist of the story is that Harold Angel (Johnny Favorite) cheated death

No he didn’t, Johnny sold his soul to become a famous singer, then tried to renege on the deal by hiding his soul inside Harold Angel’s (whose heart he ate in a Satanic ritual).

Years later Lucifer locates the soul and sends ‘Harold Angel’ on a mission to find his true identity.

[–] BourbonKing (5777) a month ago

"Years later Lucifer locates the soul and sends ‘Harold Angel’ on a mission to find his true identity."

This might be in the book, but not the movie, and as I stated already, this notion of manipulating victims souls plays outside the cosmology of Judeo-Christian religion and Satan's ability to control humanity's fate. The biblical Satan can't control people's souls he didn't seduce, and if he could, then he's already defeated God's creation.

[–] Seperatrix (1213) a month ago

" . . . this notion of manipulating victims souls plays outside the cosmology of Judeo-Christian religion and Satan's ability to control humanity's fate"

Why introduce your theology into a work of fiction? Angel Heart doesn't have to stick to the rules of the many religions and the many different takes on Satan is and how he operates.

[–] jacotodd47 (1832) a year ago

If I gather correctly, what you are saying is why didn't the people that knew him as Johnny Favorite not be able to recognize him when he turns up as Harry Angel. If this is the problem you have - well, I understand because for me it was also something that didn't make sense. It's the only part of the story that doesn't fit. How could Angel turn up, I believe it was 12 years later, and not be recognized by Krusemark, his daughter, and Toots? Even with the cosmetic surgery? Well, I agree. They would have recognized him, especially the daughter who, as I remember, was intimate with Johnny Favorite. Actually sitting here thinking about it - the two men, Toots and Krusemark, Angel may have slipped by them - but no way he would have slipped by the daughter. As soon as Harry Angel sat down to have his palm read - she'd have figured out he was really Johnny Favorite. So, one agrees with the OP. However, I loved this film. I think it's a top ten flick of the 1980s. The rest of the movie was good enough that one can overlook this error.

[–] Melton (4435) 2 months ago

The facial reconstruction explains this.

[–] jacotodd47 (1832) 2 months ago

True, but in reality....

I think the woman, having been intimate with him, would have known. He'd still have the same voice.

He'd slip by the two men though.

Hahah, what do you know, I just read my answer from a year ago - yeah, I feel the same way now.

Thanks for the reply.

[–] Melton (4435) 2 months ago

The plot is convoluted and implausible but having a new face, plus the amnesia erasing his memories and the ritual giving him a whole new soul… the guy is going to present as sufficiently different for me to let it pass that his ex doesn’t recognise him.

[–] jacotodd47 (1832) 2 months ago

Well, I can meet you halfway.

They did in fact only meet once (in a civil fashion) - he could have slipped by her with only one meeting. I can see that.

A second meeting, certainly if there was a 3rd meeting, she'd have figured out Harry Angel was in fact her old flame Johnny Favorite.

But, yeah, they only meet once, then of course we know what happens the second time he sees her. The second time they were together would have been too chaotic for her to figure it out.