The show is WAY too preachy.


I like TNG. I like most of the main characters. What I don't like is the show is constantly trying to establish what ethics and morality should be. The show has too many long winded scenes where Picard and others are rambling about what the ethical or moral implications of a situation is, and in the end everyone solemnly accepts the argument that the main character has made, as if they've conclusively established the one true answer. Meanwhile viewers are sitting there thinking to themselves that the argument doesn't completely make sense or it's disregarding facts or parts of the argument. If you take the bleeding heart position every single time then you might always agree with the morailty rants that TNG makes, but everyone else is just saying ok, ok we get it let's move on. I'm not saying that I never agree with some of the moral positions presented by the show. Problems stem from the medium in which we are digesting the show and the finality in how they present their arguments. Because it is a tv show there is no opportunity for the viewer to interject or flat out disagree, the show makes its argument, and then declares that argument to be the absolute truth. It's one part of the show that me and my buddies always disliked. I think they could have explored these ethics centered concepts in a better way.

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My biggest beef is with the prime directive plot abuse. In one show a drug addicted planet of aliens are led to believe they have a plague that will kill them with out medicine provided by another planet but unbeknownst to the sick population they arn't dying they've just become addicted to the medicine(which in reality) is just a drug being pushed by the other alien culture. Dr Crusher wants to inform the sick population that they are not sick just addicted but the prime directive prevents her from interferring with other cultures so they are supposed to just let the culture suffer and trade all their work and wealth to the lazy lying drug pushing aliens. The case to intervene is made and pcard says that "Every time the federation breaks the prime directive it always turns out badly". This is my exception to shows like this. The plot, facts, and history of the shows universe always provides absolute evidence to support the liberal theory of the week with no possible counter points being brought up. Like theres never a counter example where breaking the prime directive is justified. For example to prevent Genocide of billions, insterad episode is set up so that the prime direcive or liberal theory of the week is always right.

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I think that depends on the episode. Sometimes they make the preachiness a little more subtextual and the writing is sharper. Other times the arguments do make perfect sense.

Some of the fun is watching them wrestle with it, too, and there are plenty of episodes where they arrive at certain conclusions but those conclusions aren't easily-won, and sometimes they are treated as precarious.

In "The Perfect Mate", for instance, the conclusion isn't completely satisfactory and the arguments for-and-against throughout the show are compelling and troubling.

Other episodes are much clumsier. I think it depends on who was writing which episode.

As a side-note, this is something that baffles me a bit with the recent crowd who rip on Star Trek: Discovery for being too "PC" or "woke": Star Trek has always been a show about ethics and morality. Now, a healthy chunk of those fans are saying that the problem is that ST:D doesn't feel like Trek for other reasons, and those arguments I understand, but the mere fact that the show is trying to be progressive has been something baked right in since Gene Roddenberry (a socialist, I believe) invented the show to tackle such issues head-on.

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You're correct in that the show has always had a progressive agenda baked into it from the beginning because it sprang from Gene and others he associated with in the film industry that have seemingly always notoriously been left leaning. But the original series wasn't nearly as polarizing as every successive series. Kirk would be considered center right in today's lenses.

Just like the politics of the country, the show seems to become ever more radicalized to one side of the political spectrum and TNG showcases that to great degree in many episodes. How many episodes in TNG feels like they are actually lecturing us on what right and wrong is? Seriously, f*** off with that and fight some aliens or do cool science fiction stuff and stop trying to enforce your beliefs on the audience. Again I'm not even saying I disagree with the "lesson" many of the episodes are trying to portray, but if one takes a step back and looks at the big picture, it really seems like the show is trying to condition people one episode at a time, using the Trek universe with its characters and plots, to accept a certain way of seeing things.

I think audiences are getting louder and more aggressive in their disapproval of the PC and woke material being shoehorned into shows because it's not stopping otherwise. It just keeps getting worse. Capitalism being attacked is a theme that has been in many Star Trek series. So has racism, with the explicit focus being that white people are to carry most of the blame for it. They constantly ridicule American and European cultures and traditions of the past. The show, like many others is often used as a vehicle to promote a progressive political agenda, and it's annoying. Which is a shame because the overall product is a such a fun look into science fiction and what it can be.

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Take what I have to say with a grain of salt, as I've seen TOS and most of TNG, but only bits of DS9, Voyager, and almost nothing of Enterprise - zlich for Discovery. But...

It seems to me like a very progressive agenda was always baked in, as we've both said, but I do know something of what you mean since the substance of that agenda has changed. Assuming Star Trek is championing liberal values, that's great. I can disagree with it on socialism, but I still respect a lot of people (intellectually) who happen to be socialists. That's cool; I can disagree with them. Maybe I'm wrong.

But if Star Trek is championing left wing values, that's different. That's different because the left have gone gonzo in the last six or seven years - really out to Froot Loop land - and there's a big difference between imagining a socialist utopia, championing freedom, creativity, peace, the value of life, and exploration; and championing a lot of the kool-aid being peddled these days.

So, I do know what you're driving at. And, yeah, Kirk would be centre-right at *least*. That guy liked kissing women and sometimes used force in negotiation and diplomacy. He's probably a Nazi, these days (depending on who you ask).

Now, where we do disagree is that I don't think TNG did that as much, as hard, or in such an obnoxious way as you do. I think there are plenty of episodes where they present a "no easy win". There's "The Measure of a Man" where Data is tried to see if he's a person or a machine. There's the Bajoran/Cardassian stuff (usually associated with DS9, but introduced here, I think...). There's the way they handle interactions with the Klingons. "Pen Pals" gives us a "non-interference" policy which is supposed to be used to protect civilizations from colonial influence, but is now risking the life of a girl. It never gives us an easy answer, and though the characters discuss the ethics of it (leading to a certain amount of moralizing - impossible to avoid), nobody's preaching.

Others, yes, are preachy. But I maintain that it depended on the writer. I think the show was pushing ideas of xeno-acceptance, cross-cultural exchange, peace, and compassion. It championed science over ignorance. These are great ideas, universal, and timeless. These days, a lot of people have a problem, saying free speech is "right wing". Well, okay. Then I'm right wing.

I don't disagree that the show has a moral stance, but I don't think it's soapboxing all the time, and it does cover nuance and a lot of dissenting opinion - never dismissively. Even when it comes to a conclusion like, "This is right, that is wrong," it's rarely dismissive or condescending to the other side (more or less).

Capitalism is attacked in Star Trek, yes, and racism. But I don't think that Star Trek ever blamed white people for it. It seemed, in fact, to have the values that the wokists *claim* to have: acknowledging the problems of history (the Prime Directive seems to be put in place to avoid slave trades, exploitation of resources, and genocides) while valuing the good done, too (Star Trek references the US Constitution in a positive way a lot). They go after backwards values like slavery and laud advancements like Magna Carta. Star Trek TOS, TNG - early Trek - would never condemn Western Civilization as evil white people doing harm. They would acknowledge the harm, keep/hold up the good, and keep on Trekkin'.

That's how I see it, anyway.

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The best episodes are CENTRIST and this will always be true of every tv show and movie.

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I agree. It also applies to businesses and individuals.

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A certain amount of preachiness was part of the original series, and if that streak of preachiness was much stronger in the second show... it's largely because the writers of the original show ignored ethics and let Kirk punch or bullshit his way out of awkward situations (like telling the Gangster Planet "Da Federation's takin' over, see?" or whatever). So to prove the new series was more grownup and serious than the original, they started putting in all these ethical debates.

Now to some extent, that's okay, because in real life, people whose jobs take them into a lot of strange or unknown situations hopefully do think about the ethics of the available courses of action. But I agree that the show had rather too much of that, to the point where it became boring and yes, sometimes preachy.

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DS9 show the dark side of the Federation

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Ahhhhhhh. The Prime Directive!
Wish they ran with it when Wesley broke the Shrubbery.
He should've have got the needle and written him out of the show!
Those jumpers he wore were a crime against fashion!

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They should have just volunteered to hold the execution on the holodeck... wait a minute, why am I trying to think of ways to NOT execute Wesley?

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