MovieChat Forums > Young Sherlock Holmes (1985) Discussion > This and Harry Potter

This and Harry Potter

posted 21 years ago by ephraimwaite
78 replies | jump to latest

OK this came out in 1985, right? I certainly remember enjoying it as a kid. Well, of the many places from which JK Rowling 'borrowed' material for her books, this film REALLY stands out! Watch it again, remembering her age and when she would have seen this, way before she began her books, and marvel at the elements she poached. The three characters (the Hermione-like heroine, inverted spit-of-Potter Watson as the hero, and Holmes for Weasley - something that is almost done in the film anyway since it is told from Watson's perspective). The flying - contrast the machine with the broomsticks. The odd, and sometimes sinister teachers. The school location. The gothic atmosphere. The mystery element. The supernatural element. The title: HeroFirstname HeroSurname and the Pyramid of... Azkaban, anyone? Seriously, wtach it again and it all hits you really strongly. Of course, the waters have been muddied by Chris Columbus, who wrote this, directing some of the Potters, but frankly, I reckon he probably got the gig simply because he had a gentle 'chat' with her about his film, and whether she'd seen it! He was the ideal choice for her anyway, seeing as he wrote the script that she borrowed from (probably unconsciously - I wonder if she was embarassed when he pointed it out?). But if she'd said no I wonder if he'd have considered having a go legally? Probably not, because enough original stuff is hers, and he borrowed Conan Doyle's characters anyway, so he'd have little chance of claiming many rights in the script he wrote. What is even more worth pondering is what would have happened if he had written that script up as a kid's book back in the '80s, instead of a screenplay. Maybe in a parallel universe somewhere JK Rowling is still a penniless single mother and Chris Columbus is a billionaire kidult author with a series of "Young Sherlock Holmes and the..." books behind him?

[–] audonamission 21 years ago

Yes!!! Exactly!! I remember thinking that when I watched it!! Also, this was filmed at the same studio as some of Harry Potter, so when you watch some of the scenes, especially in the dining hall, they look exactly the same! The snobby brat kid has blond hair, he's rich, and his name is Dudley. There are a lot of odd little "coincidences", and I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed!

What Would Leatherface Do?

[–] Gator_MacReady 21 years ago

I fully agree!

[–] spacemuse1 21 years ago

Not meaning to diss the Harry Potter series, because they are very enjoyable stories in their own right, her most notable 'inspiration' was, I think, from The Worst Witch series by Jill Murphy. I don't know if they made a film of it but there is a TV version starring Fairuza Balk and Tim Curry, if anyone wants to compare notes.

[–] audonamission 21 years ago

Yes!! The only reason I've ever watched that show on HBO is to compare it to Harry Potter. It's VERY similar.

1--Magical boarding school (this one's only for girls)

2--The uptight, dark haired teacher who hates the protagonist

3--Flying lessons taught in large groups

4--Kind-hearted, slight crazy headmaster/mistress

5--Few non-magical students featured as major characters

So many more, a lot of stuff about the school is very similar.

That having been said, the actual plotline of Harry Potter is original...just not the whole wizarding school and a few other aspects...

What Would Leatherface Do?

[–] 21 years ago

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[–] 21 years ago

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[–] starcat13 17 years ago

"...paper on the plight of women in fantasy...."

To go off topic a bit, it sounds like this was quite probably a very interesting paper if you went all the way back to 1864 for source material.

Can't comment on the HP books, I've only read 2 in part because I found Duane's 'Wizards' (started in 85) series to be a more interesting and better written modern take on the idea of young wizards/magic. (in that series wizards are male & female).

[–] robobeatnik 20 years ago

Learn how to write.

[–] thirteenth_muffin 19 years ago

English might not be thier first language.

[–] JackSparks25314 19 years ago

I always thought Rowling borrowed most of her fundamental story elements from the Earthsea books.

[–] ephraimwaite 19 years ago

I mentioned Earthsea in a post below - I agree that there is one fundamental similarity - the concept: boy wizard goes to school of magic and learns to fight dark forces. In the details, though, it is very different - characterisation, setting, atmosphere, etc. I think it much more likely that Rowling was partly inspired for concept by The Worst Witch books (I see that bdsproductions, who posted below, has posted elsewhere that he doesn't agree with that either). BUT for characters, setting and atmosphere you can't beat Young Sherlock Holmes for similarities, and if you compare the plot of YSH with events from the Potter series, and tick off the duplications, the link seems even stronger.

[–] wwestar 18 years ago

Also, Chris Columbus wrote YSH and directed the first 2 Potter films.

[–] The_Rook 21 years ago

I'm impressed with all the people here and there observations. You obviously have great powers of observation. You would be surprised at how many young people especially I have see diss Young Sherlock Holmes and call it boring. I'm glad to see some people that appreciate it.

[–] vlvetmorning98 21 years ago

I think YSH is a great film, but I have no interest in Harry Potter whatsoever.

[–] gilesjuk 20 years ago

I've just watched this again on TV. It's a great film, good to see that the typical Hollywood ending hasn't been used, the girl dies and Holmes doesn't get all the credit for solving the case.

I was about to post about the similarities to Harry Potter when I noticed this thread.

[–] MovieFreak4702 20 years ago

"I've just watched this again on TV. It's a great film, good to see that the typical Hollywood ending hasn't been used, the girl dies and Holmes doesn't get all the credit for solving the case. "

Thanks for the spoiler warning, @$$hole.

"A person is smart, people are dumb"

[–] jamie_windsor 19 years ago

If you don't want to know what happens in a film then don't read threads on a discussion forum about it.

[–] snavecire 19 years ago

It's standard--not to mention good manners--to indicate if your post has spoilers. You should have indicated "spoiler warning" in the subject of your post. To not do so is rude and inconsiderate, as is your reply here. Boorish, even. And implying that discussion threads automatically divulge plot points is ridiculous; no one else had to spoil the film in order to discuss it, just you. Terrible.

[–] thirteenth_muffin 19 years ago

Jamie has a point. Would an intelligent individual really read a thread discussing the similarities between two plotlines and expect no spoilers? Would have thought it was obvious.

[–] jamie_windsor 19 years ago

But nobody can can make any kind of comment on a film without giving things away about it. In this sense, every single post is a “spoiler”. Some events having more significance than others is purely subjective. I don’t think that if someone reads a discussion forum board about a film, they are justified in expecting not to learn things about the film. It’s just common sense.

In addition—it wasn’t me who wrote the spoiler and I would say it was probably more rude to call someone an *beep* than to discuss a film online.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] jamie_windsor 10 years ago

There is now a spoiler button, but there wasn't 10 years ago when the post was written. You're criticising people over a decade ago for not having access to the technology of the future.

[–] Fleurus 9 years ago

If you don't want to know what happens in a film then don't read threads on a discussion forum about it.

Exactly ! I don't understand people reading about a film they haven't watched yet, on a forum. If I want to watch a film and make sure I'll like it, I look at the ratings. And THEN I come here to see what people think of it.

[–] mei_ling0215 21 years ago

Just coincident! No need to devalue JKR's HP story, however, Columbus' directing got bad word of mouth.
The script was written by Chris Columbus! Not JKR's idea

[–] big_r_blings 21 years ago

yea well the similarities ARE stunning, but you all are bozo's who have nothing better to do than watch childrens movies.

[–] thirteenth_muffin 19 years ago

Your subtle wit and archaic explination of the undoubted inevitable astounds me.

[–] gisela-2 21 years ago

It's amazing! For a moment I guess I was the only one to think the same thing Ephraimwaite!! I remember I saw this film when I was a kid and LOVED it! Then a few days ago I saw it on tv, so even if I'm adult now, I decided to watch it (I don't see why it bothers some people... they must feel TOO adults to watch films for kids! If only adults keep their child heart, the world would be better!) Anyway, so I watched it and found as if I was watching some scenes of Harry Potter: the school, the nasty blond guy, the teachers, etc!! However, both are very different films and very enjoyable!

[–] 21 years ago

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[–] worry-wait 21 years ago

I am not the only one. Really glad to read your posting!!!! When I watched Harry Potter I and II, I thrilled. Harry Potter and his friends Ron and Hermione remind me Young Sherlock Holmes. Even Harry Potter showed remarkable detective instincts in 'Chamber of Secrets'. I've never thoght "title: HeroFirstname HeroSurname and the Pyramid of... Azkaban", hilarious! As I have a book novelized of Young Sherlick Holmes(It said 'written by Steven Spielberg', just for selling! gees...), I cannot help passing by this posting.

Well... Ron is the tallest one of three, as Holmes. I feel great!

Now, I wish for Chris Columbus with JK Rowlling Audio Commentary on YSH special edition DVD (haha).

Sorry! One more wish. 1013 production(I don't know why 1013 should be.. but just a wish, please) make "Sherlock Holmes and The Hound of the Baskervilles" with same casting, Nicholas Rowe and Alan Cox.

[–] KackieFlaherty_SpinDoc 20 years ago

Yes, I noticed the same thing, especially since Alan Cox looks a lot like Harry Potter. I don't like the harry Potters myself, but I love YSH, and it's been a favorite of mine for a while... but then, I'm into the eighties! Does anyone know what Alan Cox went on to do...?

[–] Sugar_Sprite 20 years ago

I was watching YSH with my family recently, and my mom had just barely seen HP for the first time, so she was constantly pointing out all the similarities that I don't think I really even noticed the first time I saw YSH: Boarding school, two boys and a girl who solve mysteries, a sneering snotty guy who even looks like Malfoy and has the same name as Dudley, the dining hall in YSH looking almost exactly like the Great Hall, the teacher who turns out to be evil, even a guy who looks like Harry. We didn't think of it as JKR copying, though. There's been a billion books and movies about boarding schools with the same atmosphere. The only other that instantly comes to mind is ''The Worst Witch'' and that one book that just came out which I will never read because it it blatantly ripping off both HP and ''The Worst Witch''. Oh, and I've never read ''A Wizard of Earthsea'' but I heard that's about a magic school too. I could be thinking of a different book, though.
I could never figure out if Harry is the HP counterpart to Watson or Holmes. He looks like Watson and they both are the one whose perspective we see the story from, and in HP it's Ron who likes Hermione like Holmes likes Elizabeth, but Harry and Holmes are the heroes.

[–] DangerManTX 20 years ago

Harry Potter is the most obvious piece of Plaigirism that I have ever seen. The Young Sherlock Holmes on the other hand is an original and cleverly written script. Has anyone noted the similarities in initials. [H]olmes = [H]arry, [W]atson = Weasley. Need I even point out the similarities with Snape and the sinister Mr Raith. Difference between Harry Potter and this is that this piece of writing does not patronize the children and does not have holes in the plot that you could drive a truck thorugh. Well spotted people, I've been saying it for years - since this is one of my favourite Holmes spin offs! Brilliant movie all round!

[–] Daphne1D 20 years ago

You have got to be kidding me, right? You guys are really reaching here to compare these movies/books.

'OMG THERE'S 3 CHARACTERS THAT HAVE NAMES THAT START WITH THE SAME LETTER AND THEY ARE BRITISH!!!! CALL THE POLICE ON JK ROWLING BECAUSE THAT CAN'T JUST HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT OR COINCIDENCE'

First off, Harry Potter doesn't have a girlfriend, and even if he did how could you possibly know that she was being killed off?
And yes, please do point out the differences between Snape and Raith. For startes, Raith starts off as something of a mentor and then turns out to be evil (only because Holmes is onto him I might add), whereas Snape hates Harry from day one. Did I mention they are all wizards too?

I have a feeling you haven't read the books, belsbrac_belsbrac.

LOL, nice try though ;)

[–] rina-11 20 years ago

Okay, all y'all who keep spelling it "Raith" have totally missed the last clue that Watson picks up on, namely that "RATHE" is "Ehtar" spelled backwards.

I don't think there are any more similiarties between YSH and HP (both of which I enjoy, allthough not the HP movies nearly as much as the HP books) than naturally occur between any two works of fiction that use archetypal characters. There's a reason why this stuff is popular/recycled, and it has nothing to do with JKR being particularly unoriginal.

[–] DangerManTX 20 years ago

I don't agree with you at all Daphne1D and I doubt that you have actually watched the movie that is being discussed here. At no point were Harry Potter books being compared to this movie - rather Harry Potter movies where being compared to this movie. It is quite apparent to anyone at all that there are more than a few similarlities to this movie. The character Watson with his school scarf is the very spit of Harry Potter. I have no doubt that this is an example of the worst kind of plaigirism. I find Ms. Rowling's writing to be extremely over-rated, but then we live in a time of mediocrities. You are comparing an original idea and movie plot (YSH) to something which is much less than original and verging on intellectual theft. I would find it extremely hard to believe that YSH was not used as a major influence for Harry Potter books and movies. The characterization is extraordinarily similar right down to Watson's costume. We could go on and discuss the earlier character from literature 'Larry Potter' who was likewise a Boy Wizard by an earlier American author. Ms. Rowling gives the impression of 'borrowing' for want of a better word, from other more original people.

[–] Daphne1D 20 years ago

I have watched the movie. What an odd thing to accuse me of....why would I be here if I hadn't seen the movie. I've even seen it twice!
You are aware that scarves are a part of uniforms in British schools, aren't you? You can't say they are ripping off the look of the film if it's the way that kids look in schools in the UK. Not to mention it's a dark kids movie. They are gonna kinda have the same tone, you know.

You say you're talking about the movies, but I hate to break it to you that the movies are based on books. Books that set the tone/mood for the films ;)

And just since you brought it up here's the deal on 'Larry Potter' (who wasn't a boy wizard at all, so please get your facts right):

Rowling prevailed in a lawsuit alleging copyright infringement, filed by Nancy Stouffer, writer of The Legend of Rah and the Muggles and allegedly of Larry Potter and His Best Friend Lilly. The first book features creatures called "muggles". U.S. District Judge Allen G. Schwartz rejected Nancy Stouffer's claims that she was plagiarised, and fined Stouffer $50,000 for "submission of fraudulent documents" and "untruthful testimony", but stopped short of having Stouffer criminally charged with perjury. Stouffer was required to pay a portion of the attorney's fees incurred by Rowling, her U.S. publisher Scholastic Press, and Warner Bros. Films.

If you don't like the movies, then fine but I really don't think it's fair to accuse her of plagiarism. If you don't like the movies, then don't watch them. No need to be nasty about it. Life is too short.

[–] DangerManTX 20 years ago

Actually 2 points. 1. I went to a British school and no we don't dress like that - only in movies does anyone wear red and white scarves such as YSH and Harry Potter - see where this is going? 2. Regardless of how Nancy Stouffer mishandled her case she did indeed invent the bespectacled character Larry Potter and the Muggles. Stouffer should have kept to the whole truth, but even then regardless of that we had a middle class woman on limited means up against the countless billions Rowling had behind her to fund her legal case. In short Nancy Stouffer had no chance. Columbus could have sued and possibly won though, I suspect there was some horse-trading to get him the Directors job. as has been alleged on this board and other places. Ms. Rowling is a plaigirist. Any fool can see that. Larry Potter, Hedwig and the concept of what a muggle is predates her writing. YSH is all too similar as to the school, his enemy/rivals, and the character Watson. The argument has been well stated on this board.

[–] Daphne1D 20 years ago

Well seeing as Chris Columbus directed the first two Harry Potter movies, I have a feeling he's not going to be suing her! ;)

And if "any fool" can see that she's a plagiarist, I think she'd have be successfully sued by now. Personally, I see people who are jealous of her for being successful and are grasping at straws. It's obviously a coincidence.

And *you* might not have dressed like that, but I know plenty of people who did.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[–] nightcrawler-329 14 years ago

Has anyone noted the similarities in initials. [H]olmes = [H]arry, [W]atson = Weasley

Yes. But don't forget [D]udley = [D]raco, and also the dialogue where Holmes refers to Watson as a Weasle.

[–] Chalice 13 years ago

(gothic is about tone and content rather than setting and period),

I KNOW what a gothic setting is dammit - romance, mystery and bleak settings, all of which qualify HP as gothic......and gothic novels tended to be written before the 20th century so, as I said, the old fashioned uniforms in HP make sense.

You know what? I bet JK Rowling's never even HEARD of this film, much less seen it.

Those who think you're insane for dancing can't hear the music.

[–] toothpastelaser 11 years ago

everyone saw this on VHS mate

[–] niara 20 years ago

I NEVER made the connection, and I own YSH on vhs and am a huge fan of the harry potter books! I have often wondered how on earth did Chris "I have absolutely no vision whatsoever" Columbus manage to get the coveted role of directing not one but TWO harry potter movies! Based on what? Home Alone? Adventures in Babysitting? Mrs. Doubtfire? Imagine the directors that were drooling at the opportunity to direct the first harry potter film. I understand Steven Spielberg was one of the first people (and was going to cast Haley Joel Osment as Harry but that's another story) and we all know that hack-Columbus is some sort of Spielberg protege. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone was going to be a monster hit, everyone knew that. So I have wondered quite a bit which animal did Columbus have to sacrifice to get to direct the first two hp films and then I read this theory. What goes around comes around, Rowling knew her gig was up -- and we all know how "influential" she was on the set -- and she said "it has to be Chris." Great theory, ephraimwaite!