Why was Bones chatting a flight to Genesis?
Why after stealing the Enterprise do Kirk & the others do the same?
They didn't know Spock's body had been regenerated. Their mission was to return Spock's kata to Vulcan.
Shouldn't they have headed straight for Vulcan?
Yep, you hit the nail on the head with a major plot problem in Star Trek III. Sarek asks Kirk to retrieve Spock's katra, his living spirit, which is revealed to reside in McCoy. The need to go to the Genesis Planet is never touched upon at all, as like you said, no one could have possibly known that Spock's body would regenerate. McCoy is shown to yen for Mt. Seleya on Vulcan, so his need to go to Genesis doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
The only thing that I, a fan who is making up excuses, can offer is that they wanted to retrieve the original body for ritualistic purposes. McCoy did say early in the film, "why did you leave me on Genesis? Why did you do that?" The need to go get Spock's body is never fleshed out at all, and it is incredible coincidence that they arrive right when he ages into present day Leonard Nimoy!
It borders on being a plot hole, for the events of the film are based on the need to go to Genesis yet there is no reason for McCoy or Kirk to want to go to Genesis, ergo, the movie cannot happen! I mean, McCoy's rambling about why they left him (Spock) on Genesis is flimsy and certainly not worth sacrificing your career over, whereas knowledge of a living body would be a different story. Or maybe that was enough to make them want to go get the body! Admiral Morrow calls it Vulcan superstition, but one could say that we simply don't understand the spiritualistic side of the matter.
Oh well. I still love the film. Sometimes you just have to accept the mistakes and move on!
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I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.
It was just a excuse for onscreen drama and adventure.
shareAll fine except that Sarek chastises Kirk for jettisoning his son's body to Genesis. The desire or the necessity for his body, not just the Katra, being returned to Vulcan is established early in the movie.
And the katra'd McCoy is intuitively drawn to Genesis independent of Sarek's demands.
Here is my take.The intention as far as Admiral Kirk intended was to journey to Genesis retrieve what it was assumed was Spock's lifeless body then carry on with it to Vulcan but they did not know Kruge and hid men would mess it all up!
shareThat's the way I understood it too. I thought Sarek told them to get Spock's lifeless body from Genesis and bring it back with McCoy to Vulcan so they could use their Vulcan mysticism to remarry his body with his katra - Spock's life force that McCoy was carrying. I didn't think that was a plot hole or anything. It was very coincidental that Spock's body regenerated and was removed from the Genesis planet when he was back to his same age before death, but I didn't see anything wrong the story, it's sci-fi after all.
shareI guess it's not so much a plot hole, it's just not well written when we have no reason explained for their going there.
I'd never noticed that before though OP. Funny.
I could understand Sarek wanting Spock's body. That makes sense.
I don't understand McCoy wanting to go to Genesis. Even whatever part of Spock lived on inside Bones could never have assumed his body would EVER be regenerated.
Oh well. I too, love the film. But watching it again made me think... hold on...
None of them knew Spock's body was regenerated on Genesis, they just knew they shot his torpedo coffin out into space which landed there on the planet.
I just watched it again and Spock's katra, or living spirit, talks through McCoy in the beginning asking Kirk why he left him on Genesis. Sarek later asks Kirk the same thing, why did he leave Spock on Genesis. Sarek initially thinks Kirk is holding Spock's katra and then they both learn it's McCoy. Sarek then tells Kirk to bring them to Mt Selaya on Vulcan so they can bring Spock's katra and body back together.
They had to go to Genesis first to get Spock's body, so McCoy technically didn't need to go with Kirk but Kirk told Sarek he would bring them no matter what. If they don't have Spock's body then it's all for naught, that's why they all planned to go to Genesis. Also the fact that they are all loyal friends to each other and are willing to risk their careers for even the remotest of chances of bringing Spock back to life since he saved them in TWOK and their long history together.
It is never implied that Sarek wants to brings the katra and the body back together when he and Kirk talk. The whole katra transference thing is "the Vulcan way when the body's end is near". One is left to assume that the katra will either go on living inside of another Vulcan (but in a human it causes problems), or that there is some ritual to transfer the katra to some sort of final destination of sort. We don't really know because it is never explained. Either way, Sarek did not ask Kirk to bring them to Vulcan for the purpose of Refusion. He would only have come to that "illogical" conclusion after the events on Genesis have wrapped up and he discovers that Spock now has a living body again. As stated earlier, the whole concept really isn't explored deeply enough to make good sense. It is all very coincidental.
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I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.
It is never implied that Sarek wants to brings the katra and the body back together when he and Kirk talk.
You said in the earlier post,
Sarek then tells Kirk to bring them to Mt Selaya on Vulcan so they can bring Spock's katra and body back together.
but it is implied they can do something, possibly bringing Spock back to life.
I'll repeat my previous post and highlight:
Sarek asks Kirk why did he leave Spock on Genesis and he also assumed Kirk was holding his katra. Sarek explains that a Vulcan's Katra is their living spirit, everything not of the body. They then mind meld and review the visual flight recorder and realize it was McCoy holding Spock's katra. Sarek then tells Kirk to bring "them" to Mt Seleya on Vulcan.
"Them" obviously means Spock's body on Genesis and McCoy with Spock's katra. Kirk sweared he would take them, knowing it would be a challenge, as we saw in the film. Why would Kirk then ask the Starfleet Commander for a ship to Genesis if all he had to do was take McCoy to Vulcan? He wouldn't, the whole challenge was recovering Spock's body at Genesis. The title of the film after all is, "The Search For Spock."
What the Vulcans can do with a dead body and a living katra is not really explained, but it is implied they can do something, possibly bringing Spock back to life. The fact that there was even the remotest of chance of this is what motivated the original crew to risk their careers and try. The writers chose to regenerate Spock's body through the Genesis wave which brought Spock's body back to life, so we don't know how the Vulcans would've tried beyond what we saw with them reunifying Spock's katra and body.
The one thing I come up with is this:
The Vulcans may need his dead body to CLONE him, a topic which has been touched upon before in Star Trek on television. They Clone Spock a new body and then bring his katra still in McCoy back to it on Mt Seleya and problem solved.
Spock Katra knew his body was on Genesis .... He says so... Why did you leave me on Genesis .... Not really a plot hole but it's kinda sketchy
share"Them" is McCoy & Spock.
Bring "them" to Vulcan. Spock's katra inside McCoy's body = THEM.
He even says it. "One alive, one not. Both in pain."
"Them" is McCoy & Spock.
Bring "them" to Vulcan. Spock's katra inside McCoy's body = THEM.
He even says it. "One alive, one not. Both in pain."
I can see the OP and your interpretation on this and you're right, a line or two of more dialogue would have made it better.
I always understood "Them" to be Spock's body and katra because Spock's katra wanted to know why he was left on Genesis and Sarek wanted to know too while assuming Kirk was carrying Spock's katra. If they only clarified it a little more it would've made it easier to understand.
As stated before, the idea for needing Spock's body just wasn't fleshed out enough. A line or two of dialogue could have corrected this. Oh wellHere's the lines you're looking for:-
^ Sorry, that doesn't have anything to do with the logic of the story presented in Star Trek III. It was merely a foundation that the plot of the sequel would decide to build upon...yet ultimately failing to flesh it out logically.
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I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.
Well it certainly sets out logically why Kirk may wish to return to the Genesis planet as far as the viewer (of the film series) is concerned. You may well be correct re the self-contained narrative within Star Trek III itself.
One thing I've always wondered is - Although it seems pretty obvious, given that Kirk WOK dialogue, that they'd return to the Genesis planet, was it always the intention for that to happen right away, i.e. in the next film?
Thanks.
The truth about Marti Pellow
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I don't really know what the intention was with the end of Trek II. I do know that Nicholas Meyer was against the whole end scene with the coffin on the Eden-like planet, and that it was Harve Bennett who did that scene. That is why the torpedo is fiery like a normal torpedo, yet later the tube seems totally intact. Nick Meyer refused to accept doing the sequel once they decided to bring Spock back. He felt like it was a cheat to do so after the film he made, and he is actually right even though we all love getting Spock back.
For all we know, Kirk and company may well have intended to return to the Genesis Planet some day in the future, if for no other reason than to pay respect to their dear friend Spock. We will never know what the original intention for a sequel would have been, or if they really had thought that far ahead. For all they knew, Trek II might have been the last Star Trek ever made. I do know that Kirstie Alley was being primed as Spock's replacement just in case more movies got made.
As for the actual story they came up with for the return of Spock, I think it is good and introduced some really neat Vulcan ideas. All I am saying is that they could have fleshed it out a bit better. Sarek and Bones are the ones who set the plot into motion, with Bones carrying the Katra and Sarek being upset at Kirk for leaving Spock's body behind. When Sarek realizes what has happened, he asks Kirk to bring them (Bones and the katra) to Mt. Seleya where both can find peace. Later, Kirk is all of a sudden wanting to go back to Genesis, and he has no idea that Spock would be regenerated. They failed to include a simple line of dialogue that could have easily fleshed out where the return to Genesis was suddenly required, something like the need for the body regarding the Vulcan ceremonial death ritual or something.
Oh well, it is just a small nitpick, nothing that makes me dislike the film.
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I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.
It was implied by David that they thought the torpedo would burn up .....he says it soft landed with incredulity .... On the novel saavik programmed it to do so ..... She can't bear to think of spocks ass burning up .... Could spocks Katra have senses this telepathically ???? Why not ???? At that point he is in McCoy and saavik is crying .... McCoy could have hugged her and this allows the telepathic bond .... Only McCoy has his hands on her ass not her nose
shareI am of the opinion that somehow Spock's essence knew that his body had been regenerated by the Genesis planet and was using McCoy to reunite the two.
Another plot problem that bothers me is the fact that the Genesis planet was unstable and destroyed itself within months. One would think the same thing would happen to the regenerated body of Spock.
They said that getting Spock away from Genesis would stop the process. This is one of those Star Trek things that requires no real explanation aside from someone saying that it's so. "Protoplasm" is a generic catch-all for getting out of having to make sound science for a phenomena, much like how a Tachyon is (ab)used in the Star Trek universe. Treknobabble, some would call it.
shareI don't even remember that, but it sounds like something they'd say.
share“Activate the Omega 13!”
shareThe decision to bring Spock back to life was hastily made due to fan backlash.
shareFrom what I can gather from Sarek's dialogue " One alive one not but both in pain", it's possible that Spock's katra sensed it he was still alive.
share