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Problems/Issues I have with this film 28 years later.

posted 13 years ago by JohnQ1127
75 replies | jump to latest

I remember seeing this film when it came out and I was still in high school. I also remember being a big fan of this film when it was shown on cable and later on when it came out on VHS during the 1980's. I watched this the other night on HBO and was kind of shocked that it wasn't the sweet comedy I remembered in my youth. Maybe I'm just older, smarter, or more mature or maybe we're a little more civilized then we were 30 years ago. I think I was most shocked by the casual treatment of rape and treatment of Caroline the Prom Queen.

I was troubled by 15 themes or incidents in this film:

1-Farmer Ted/Date Rape? This is something that people just didn't talk about back in '84 but Farmer Ted essentially rapes Caroline in Jakes father's car. She's inebriated and unable to give consent yet Ted has sex with her.

2-Rape is Love. The morning after the date-rape incident the Prom Queen admits that she actually "enjoyed" it and is now in love with the geek. Was there a bizarre date-rape fantasy theme in 80's movies because I seem to remember this similar theme repeated in several 80's films.

3-Caroline/Misogyny. Jake essentially "gives" the inebriated Caroline to a total stranger (Ted the Geek) and tells him to basically to "have fun" and "take her home" wink, wink. Jake also tells the inebriated caroline that Ted is really Jake thus it's okay to have sex with him. I guess In this film It's okay to have the Geek rape her because she's the prom queen and a bitch.

4-Jake the romantic hero? Jake tells the geek referring to Caroline, "I could violate her 10 different ways if I wanted to" WTF?? Wow, what a romantic guy. He's the hero? He gives his inebriated girl-friend to a total stranger and implies that he can have sex with her as long as he gets her home?

5-Long Duck Dong. This has to be one of the most racist characters in film during the last 50 odd years. His character is like some cartoon version of an Asian person from the 1940's. I guess he's supposed to Chinese but his name is Vietnamese and there's a point in the film when he's in a tree wearing a Japanese samurai outfit yelling Banzai?? Also not to mention they give him a name that's the sounds like a large duck's penis in English.

6-"A Black One". This didn't seem that bad back then but it's kind of awkward today.

7-The Rizchecks- The "Oily Beau-hunk" is Italian so of coarse in this film that means that his father is involved in organized crime/mafia.

*beep* retarded". I guess were more sensitive about these words today.

9-There's a weird scene at the end of the wedding were Mr. Rizcheck pays the reverend to kiss his wife?? There's also a disturbing part were Grandpa Fred is "encouraging" Rudy to get his granddaughter into the back of the limo.

10-"Chinamon". Even the little brother refers to Dong as "Chinamon"

11-25 year old Jake.

12-Cinderealla Myth. Usually in the classic Cinderella myth the girl/woman goes through some kind of drastic transformation in order to get the prince to notice her and win his hear. In this film, Sam doesn't change at all yet we are to believe that Jake becomes head over heels in love with her because she's just an average girl who secretly wishes to have sex with him.

13-Rescue the princess/Slay the dragon. Usually in the classic rescue the princess/slay the dragon myth the boy/man has to do some kind of extraordinary courageous deed in order to win the heart of Princess/Queen. I guess by the 1980's all you had to do was trick the queen or get her drunk and then you could just rape her.

15-Shallow Sam. Why does she love Jake? Because he's cute and rich? That seems rather shallow. And what if he gets "bored" with her as well? What happens if she gets drunk at a party? Will Jake "violate" 10 different ways?

Not to mention the plot is ridiculous. Rich good looking Seniors don't "suddenly" drop their gorgeous Prom Queen girlfriends in order date some average Sophomore. Senior Prom Queens don't fall in love with Freshman geek hipsters that date-rape them.

[–] kassandra227 12 years ago

Ted raped Caroline? i just finished watching the scene in the parking lot.

neither Ted nor Caroline could remember for sure they had sex. Ted asks "did i do that to your hair?" to which she didn't know. he then asks "did we uh ...?" though she said she's "yeah, pretty sure we did."

so let's say they had sex, it doesn't mean anyone should automatically jump to conclusion is was rape. that's an extremely dangerous assumption to make and really doesn't seem accurate to what actually transpired in the film. think about it, if Caroline had thought she was raped she wouldn't have stayed in the car with Ted, and tell him what she liked best was waking up in his arms, then kissing him.

the rape assumption is dead wrong. it's a ridiculous point, so much so that the OP has lost any and all credibility he/she may have had and i feel no need to address the other flaws in the comment. No use anyway since it amount to anything nearly three decades later.

"we'll make our own tripods ... ours will have four legs" - Oliver, Scary Movie 4

[–] JohnQ1127 12 years ago

Caroline was completely intoxicated and incapacitated and therefore unable to consent to have sex with Farmer Ted. So therefore Ted's actions would be considered felony sexual assault in most states.

Oddly enough, this was a somewhat common theme in many 70's-80's comedies which sometimes ended up in a weird "Rape is Love" film trope. Revenge of the nerds has a similar situation where Louis rapes the hot cheerleader by pretending to be the football player. Of coarse in these types of movies rather than outraged, the cheerleader actually falls in love with the geek after he rapes her.

[–] ckanelevy 12 years ago

Interesting you bring the Revenge of the Nerds scenario up - because when this movie came out, I was a law student and I actually discussed the scene with my Criminal Law professor. He told me that most definitions of rape were based solely on "consent" of the actual act. So since Betty consented to Louis (even while thinking he was someone else) it would not be considered "rape." Still, something about the scene disturbed me and a similar theme was made far more disturbing in "American Horror Story" with the male dressed up in a black latex suit.

Just to mention something else that's come up on this thread. Jake says he can "violate" his girlfriend because she's lying drunk in his room. The fact is that they had sex many times before (and still dating) and, although the girlfriend is drunk, it doesn't necessarily mean there's no consent, because he can reasonably expect that she's willing. Otherwise, anytime let's say a married couple got drunk and had sex, there's a potential claim of rape (obviously something that's not true).

[–] JohnQ1127 12 years ago

Well, I think the problem is that Betty didn't consent to have sex with Louis, rather she consented to have sex with Stan. It's also kind of ridiculous that Betty would not immediately realize that the man having sex with her was not her buff football player boyfriend but rather a scrawny boy. It's also ridiculous that she would fall in love with Louis after he deceived her and had sex with her under deception. I tend to put these hypothetical questions in terms of, "Would you have a problem with the scenario if Betty was your daughter, sister or niece?" Would you have a problem with a man posing as your daughter's boyfriend tricking her into have sex? Wouldn't you consider that a sexual assault?

I have to disagree on the second part. Jake says, "I have Caroline passed out cold in my bedroom and I could violate 10 different ways if I wanted." If a woman is passed out cold she is by definition unable to consent to sexual intercourse. It doesn't matter if the woman is the girlfriend or wife of the man this action that Jake is proposing is a rape.

There's also a huge difference between an equally drunk married couple having sex and a sober husband/boyfriend having sex with his "passed out cold" girlfriend/wife.

[–] ckanelevy 12 years ago

No, I wouldn't want this to be my daughter for a lot of reasons. But it also stikes me that many guys are notorious liars when trying to convince girls to have sex with them. The costume thing is a bit extreme, but what about the guy who says he's a rich doctor with a degree from Harvard, who's a very faithful guy who dates one girl at a time, and then turns out to be nothing of the kind? Can the girl claim sexual assault because she wasn't having sex with the guy she thought she was? You're right though about how ridiculous it was that Betty not only didn't know it wasn't Ted McGinley, but then fell in love with Louis (they even were married in a made for tv special about the "future generation").

Yeah - if, indeed, she's passed out, any type of sexual content would be highly improper and criminal. But right after the scene in the kitchen, they dragged her to his father's Rolls Royce and she wasn't out cold. Then again, this was just Jake bragging about something he COULD do - not that he DID do. And, judging from prom queen's behavior during the rest of the movie, I doubt she would have even minded much if he did do something with her passed out and she later found out about it.

[–] JohnQ1127 12 years ago

Well I think the big difference in the scenario you present is that Louis was impersonating a specific man in order to have sex with the man's girlfriend. Presumedly there was no way Betty would have had sex with Louis had she known that it was he rather than Stan in the mask.

The other scenario really shows the shallowness of this particular woman in that she would only have sex with this man because he was a doctor from Harvard. I can't see this being analogous with the Revenge of the Nerds scenario.

The only thing I can think of that reminds me of your Harvard doctor scenario was the the film, "Catch Me if You Can." That scenario reminds me more of a seduction/deception rather than a sexual assault.

As far as 16 candles, what Jake is proposing to the geek is that he could sexually assault his girlfriend if he wanted to. He later gives his Again in retrospect, it's odd he's looked upon as romantic hero.

[–] ckanelevy 12 years ago

There was a true story I saw on tv once about a guy who would try to pick up women by telling them he was a certain actual back-up catcher in baseball or a goalie in hockey. He chose those fake identities because the players were obscure and were often hidden behind masks. And it worked - the guy was nothing special in any sense of the word, but these women would believe him and bring him home to have sex. They truly believed they were hooking up with a professional athlete. He was arrested because he didn't stop there -- after the women fell asleep, he would rob them. Apart from the robbery, is this that much different than what Louis did?

Anyway, imo Louis certainly acted immorally - but not criminally.

[–] JohnQ1127 12 years ago

Yeah, I go back to the ridiculous premise of the whole situation in that Betty would't have immediately realized that it wasn't her boyfriend having sex with her. Again, I think the difference in those scenarios you site is that they deal with seduction/deception rather than a lack of consent by the female.

The difference with Louis is that he fraudulently disguised himself as Stan in order to have sex with Betty. Betty ONLY consents to sex because she's under the assumption that the man in the mask is her long time boyfriend.

State criminal codes vary but I would think all have subsections dealing with consent. I would imagine most have subsections dealing with fraud.

The closest real life example of this that I've ever heard about was a pair of identical twins that were friends with a former employer of mine. They told me that occasionally one of the brothers would bring a girl home to have sex with her. The girl was unaware that he was an identical twin. His brother would be hiding in the bathroom. After the first brother finished having sex with the girl, he would then go to the bathroom and essentially switch places with his brother. Then second brother would then go back to bed with the girl and then have sex with the girl.

Caroline's case in 16 candles is more the nature of a date rape in that she was completely inebriated and unable to consent to sex. I don't think it's as shocking in 16 candles because all the sexual events take place off camera. There's also this disturbing "trading off" of Caroline from the Jock to the Geek as if Caroline was just a piece of property being given away. Jake essentially trades the geek Samantha's panties for a sexual encounter with the inebriated Caroline with the only condition being that Caroline must get home.

[–] uloveny 12 years ago

But Ted ended up just as drunk as Caroline--or at least enough for him that he blacked out (because they had the six pack and w/e other alcohol in the car)--since he couldn't remember if he cut her hair off or if they had sex or not either... so how do we know, if it did in fact happen, that it wasn't HER that raped HIM?

everyone's so quick to jump to the conclusion it was a female rape, that they forget Ted had no idea what happened either and maybe he was the one taken advantage of being the younger, less-experienced of the two. but of course no one wants to mention male rape because how could a geeky freshman guy possibly say no or not want to have sex with a hot, blonde senior girl, right?? :-/ double-standards aren't cool, people!

"Dreams aren't perfect, Dawson. They come true, not free."

[–] pbc-9 8 years ago

so how do we know, if it did in fact happen, that it wasn't HER that raped HIM?

Exactly. I found the fact that Jake basically handed Caroline off as if she were a piece of meat disturbing when I first watched it as a young girl but the way it it turned out it was not played as a rape. If sex even did happen it seems to have been initiated by Caroline.

I think the OP is just taking this movie WAY too seriously. Why would are you arguing for realism from such a farce?

[–] kassandra227 12 years ago

"So therefore Ted's actions would be considered felony sexual assault in most states."

i assume you have some examples of case law to back that up. if not, then it merely amounts to your opinion.

"we'll make our own tripods ... ours will have four legs" - Oliver, Scary Movie 4

[–] boxerrebellion 10 years ago

Except that Caroline is 17 (possibly 18) and Ted is 14, therefore, if anyone was guilty of rape, it was she (statutory).

[–] ckanelevy 12 years ago

Just saw it with my daughter last night. I never really loved this movie - I always thought "The Breakfast Club" was much better. Anyway, the Italian and Asian stereotypes are so over the top that I'm willing to give them a pass. I'm also going to give a pass to whatever happened between the Geek and the prom queen. First of all, we really don't know, but the "power exchange" between them is really all on her side except for the fact that she's drunk - yet still aware enough to slip Ted a birth control pill. Honestly, I can't feel too bad for her, and I'm not seeing where the Geek would ever be prosecuted for it (if "it" even happened, which is a major assumption). As far as the Jake/Sam thing, everything the OP says is a legitimate complaint as to realism, but I've seen stranger things happen in real life (and certainly other movies) than Jake and Sam - and, who knows? Maybe he really does fall for her and changes his ways.

The weird thing is that the OP didn't mention my biggest problem - making fun of a handicapped Joan Cusack. I mean what did that add to the movie?

Ultimately, I think the reason it's considered something of a "classic" is that it's John Hughes, and, like "Fast Times at Ridgemont High," it's filled with future stars (even Jamie Gertz has a small part in there). John Cusack as a nerdy geeky kid is really worth the price of admission alone for me. And to see Anthony Michael Hall later in "The Dead Zone" as the polar opposite of a geek is kind of interesting. Lastly, Molly Ringwald is just one of those iconic actresses who is unforgettable to anyone familiar with her movies.

[–] JohnQ1127 12 years ago

@chanelevy,

Interesting point about Joan Cusack's character. I don't think the character was permanently disabled, I think she wore that device as a result of some sort of mishap. I guess there's less of threshold for someone with a temporary disability rather than a person who is permanently disabled.

Oddly, in retrospect it seems like a film that chooses to make fun of more vulnerable people (minorities, geeks) rather than the jocks/rich people.

[–] bhilburn 12 years ago

The OP reaaally needs therapy.

[–] JohnQ1127 12 years ago

Why do you think I need therapy?

[–] creaturefeeture 12 years ago

Lol!! Besides number 12 I totally agree! I used to be in love with Jake when I was little, now I'm watching it and I'm appalled by him!! The way he screams leave me alone at his girlfriend just because he's basically bored with her and everything you've mentioned. Still love to watch the film but wow he's terrible. I think it could be partly poor acting.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] fiatlux-1 12 years ago

1. Technically that is not rape. She consented to the sex, being drunk doesn't necessarily negate consent.
4. This is one of the most 'dated' or altered meanings of any film I've seen.
In the '80s, people often used certain terms that don't necessarily translate as such today. Jake didn't mean violate in the sense we think. He was saying it as the acts themselves are so nasty they are 'crimes'. That she would wake up & consent, I don't think he meant actual rape. But I agree, either WAY, he is a serious douche.
And he was a douche for giving Caroline to Ted, but Caroline agreed to be with Ted sexually PLUS she didn't care one whit about Jake. AND seriously destroyed his house.

As to most of your other questions about how Jake & Samantha would behave with each other, its a movie. Its fantasy.

"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush."

[–] kmoss-4 11 years ago

Also, Farmer Ted was a minor. Could he be convicted of rape anyway?

[–] creaturefeeture 11 years ago

Yes. Minors can be convicted of rape..

[–] creaturefeeture 11 years ago

1. She consented to sex with Jake Ryan.. it is date rape.
4. Yes I understand what he meant by violate, but ironically it applies in both ways. I don't care how much one disrespects you, your material possessions, etc. there is no excuse for rape. It's like saying it's okay to murder someone if they blew up your house or something.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] robble-1 9 years ago

I know this is a years late reply, but ^^^^this. Everything yellowgum900 explained. That is exactly how I took those scenes regarding Jake, Sam and Caroline.

The gong sound and the name jokes were stupid, but it seemed pretty harmless and more related to stupid humor, with a hardy-har sexual innuendo element to it more than anything else.

I'm cool, you're cool, we're cool, thank you, good night!-My Science Project

[–] witster18 12 years ago

it's a freakin movie!

racial slurs, slutty girlfriends, ...yeah.. sounds like high school to me...

Jake didn't care about the slut he was dating anymore - hence his ignorance to the fact a nerd was driving her home...

but let's step back here... what would have happened in real life if jake or farmer ted had had sex with her(ted did) when she was drunk...????? I ask only because the answer is nothing... because even though it's rape by the letter of the law - it's still not rape to the 18 yr old girl until SHE considers it rape... or at least it would never come to light. I can only imagine how that would go in court if it did... 18 yr girl drunk, 14 yr old guy also drunk... yeah I have the feeling nobody would be in jail after that. I actually think the statutory case going the other way would be stronger.

full of racial epitaphs? yep. come on... go watch hotel transylvania..

defending Jake...
He didn't know he shut her hair in the door
He didn't think farmer ted would actually do anything
and it wasn't take her home "wink, wink" - he said "BUT YOU HAVE TO GET HER HOME".. showing that despite her being a terrible girlfriend and trashing his house - he still wanted her to get home safely. he'd come to the point, however, that he was willing to put her in that situation with the geek as opposed to, i don't know, puke all over his house and drive him nuts all night.

so your biggest gripe is that he wouldn't dump his hot senior girlfriend for an average sophomore... why? because that never happens in HS... EVER?

i would've done the same thing... jake spends half the movie telling the audience about how ridiculously insensitive his girlfriend is...

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] bhilburn 12 years ago

Has the OP gotten a life yet? Gongggggggggggg....

[–] reffer0877 11 years ago

idk...but by god i hope so! i liken his rant to a quote from another beloved john hughes movie where ferris says, "cameron is so uptight that if you shoved a lump of coal up his ass, in two weeks you'd have a diamond...":-D he forgets that this movie WAS made 28 years ago! it is outdated! yes there's stereotypes! and since when are teenagers...politically correct?! good gravy! its a movie, not to be taken seriously. its a movie you're supposed to relate to, especially if you were an outcast in high school. not to be taken apart, over anal-yzed, and called rape love? dude are you(OP) for real? how long did your first sexual encounter last? what, 3 minutes, at the Most? do you think ted's experience went any longer than that? were you intoxicated? inebreated? if you werent, i bet your friends at one point or another had similar experiences, and i seriously doubt they, or their partners called it rape love. all teenagers, no matter what their socio/economic status is, without adult supervision will do what theyre not supposed to do...just ask your parents what kind of stuff they did when they were growing up! sex, parties, indifference to damage of car and property, all part of growing up. where did you grow up, a monastery? and stop acting like caroline was a victim. she wasnt That *beep* i can tell you that. no one forced the alcohol down her throat. no one slipped a roofie into her drink. she had consensual sex, if they even had sex at all. one thing that you Completely forgot to mention is when she said..."oh dont be such a poop." and then proceeded to perform a sexual act on TED, First!! do you seriously think that at that point, she was still convinced ted was jake? hello?? are we watching the same movie here? you do have problems/issues. you forgot what its like to be young.

BOSTON STRONG.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] bhilburn 11 years ago

Gooooooonnnnnnnngggggggggg

"check the imdb cast list before asking who portrayed who in movies"

[–] tonybny 11 years ago

I always had more of a problem with an 18 year old woman having sex with an underage Farmer Ted. The prom queen was the rapist in my eyes.

[–] bhilburn 11 years ago

^^^^^
Are you serious?

"check the imdb cast list before asking who portrayed who in movies"

[–] Giwu 11 years ago

So I was a teenager when this movie came out - and I'm female.

I had a friend 18-19 years old who went nuts over a 13-14 year old boy. She ends up,pregnant and they(his parents) essentially threatened her with jail for stat rape UNLESS she gave the baby up for adoption.

It is implied that Caroline performs oral sex on Ted in the car. So, she wasn't passed out.

Ted was drunk as well. He had at least one stiff drink at Jakes, then beer.

So, they were mutually drunk and mutually in the wrong. She for stat rape and Ted for date rape.

It's fantasy. There are many potholes. Ted never returned the car that night. Ted never went home.

NEVER did we refer to a good looking jock as bohunk...we called them hunks.

Google bohunk, it is a derogatory slang term for Czechs. It may be slightly unique to the Midwest. They were not trying to appear as slimy Italians, they were appearing as oily Czechs.

For years I thought they were editing the word and inserting bohunk, because I had never heard it before.

The whole violate conversation...geez, high school guys were guilty of bragging and locker room talk. You'd have a couple of rumors get started and pretty soon super cool jock is having a tough time getting a date.

All typos are hereby blamed on my iPad.