Referring to the part where Gandhi says that even Hitler can be defeated through civil disobedience, although through some suffering. Well, the English considered themselves superior people who were meant to rule the world. The Nazis thought they were superior people who were meant to cleanse the world. Taking the non-violent path against Hitler would have only ended in defeat, after thousands were gassed in concentration camps. It probably wouldn't have worked in India either, if the English weren't so terribly weakened in WW-II. Not saying that Gandhi wasn't a great man. He was.
I think you are wrong. I think bad behavior like Hitler's has a way of defeating itself. I think Mr. Gandhi's policy of no violence would have helped Hitler defeat himself. It would have sped up the fall of this awful person and left those alive with their honor and goodness.
As much as I admire and respect Gandhi, I doubt his methods could have defeated murderous despots like Hitler or Stalin, who'd probably would have had him executed. Gandhi's opponents were often rough, racist and reactionary, but the British were not basically murderers. Well, except at Amritsar, and even then the board of inquiry was disgusted by the massacre.
Jallianwala Bagh was as disgusting as Hitler's doings. But the British also used to kill revolutionaries as well as people followed the principles set by Gandhi in prisons. What happened at Amrithsar was, indeed, the worst but the only instance of the British's wrong-doings has been shown in this film.
And I think the film doesn't also show Gandhi's fast for the freedom of India though it depicted him fasting for the end of communal riots after the partition.
Could have Gandhi been killed by the diabolic dictator, had he fought Hitler with his principles of non-violence? I think he didn’t find a way that he could have avoided death in either. Neither the British nor Hitler killed Gandhi. But that doesn’t mean Gandhi got not killed. Gandhi’s fast for a united India in which Muslims and Hindus live as the right and left eyes of the nation succeeded even when the nation was thrown into the madness of communal riots during the partition. But Gandhi’s life ended when Nathuram Godsey, a mindless RSS activist murdered him in cold blood. The point what I’m intending to tell you is Gandhi could have been killed by dictators like Stalin or Hitler, but Gandhi would never have preferred violence to non-violence. He was the best human being and the most courageous man I’ve ever studied or heard of. He’s a synonym for love and human values.
It's an interesting question. Everyone's arguing that Hitler or Stalin wouldn't have been stopped but have you considered that their followers would have been? Gandhi promoted the ideal that those committing the violence against the non-violent would eventually feel shamed by their actions and stop. He was proved correct.
The Nazis committed violence and had violence returned. This further strengthened their resolve to commit further violence. Gandhi saw this happening in India with the British and the Indian terrorists/freedom fighter. He broke the cycle and changed the world.
By saying it only worked in India because it was against the British but wouldn't have worked with the Germans or the Russians (or the Chinese or the Muslims or any race/culture you care to name) is ironically making you sink as low as the ethnic cleansers. You are in effect saying it only worked because the British are superior to those other races. This is definitely not what Gandhi was saying!
I agree with what a previous poster said about "violent behavior like Hitler's had a way of defeating itself".
I believe in deregulation of corporations because I believe they should be shown for how truly bad they will go, and destroy themselves because people won't put up with it anymore.
The British Empire then was like the American Empire is today: it always finds ways to cover itself up as the "good guys" like we see with the Democracy campaigns in the Middle East today. I personally believe that the British Empire had the same true colors as the Nazis (you can see it in the way they controlled half of Africa, India, and even what they did to the Irish next door). Gandhi fought in the Boer Wars, where the British government had no qualms about putting other white people in concentration camps as late as 1902.
But Hitler was actually beneficial to Gandhi. Let's not try to beat around the bush. He sucked the British military might dry, and allowed Gandhi to finish the job of gaining India's independence.
By saying it only worked in India because it was against the British but wouldn't have worked with the Germans or the Russians (or the Chinese or the Muslims or any race/culture you care to name) is ironically making you sink as low as the ethnic cleansers. You are in effect saying it only worked because the British are superior to those other races. This is definitely not what Gandhi was saying!
Whoa whoa whoa! Calm down with the supposed irony, brutha.
I agreed with your post up until that last paragraph.
Saying that Ghandi's method wouldn't work on the Nazis despite working on the British, is not at all a commendation of the British. All it means is that the British may have possessed a bit more sanity or humaneness than their German counterparts. I don't believe the above-posters meant this as a way to praise the British.
All it means is that the British regime was just different. Different regimes are impressionable in different ways. Maybe the British were smart enough despite their inhumanity to draw the line somewhere. Maybe there was a limit to their lack of sanity or consideration. Maybe the OP and others are simply suggesting that different humans can be reasoned with to different extents. Maybe they are saying that the British could be reasoned with before Hitler's regime or the Stalin regime could be reasoned with.
To say that a person thinking Ghandi's methods wouldn't work on the Nazis is akin to saying that the British are superior, is a bit of a stretch. Subsequently, to say that a person who thinks Ghandi's method wouldn't work on the Nazis despite working on the British is as low as an ethnic cleanser, is even more of a stretch, and an offensive one at that.
The above-posters' views do not necessarily reflect my own. But I read them, and they gave reasons why they felt the two regimes were different, and why they felt Ghandi's method may not have worked on the Nazis in particular. They don't deserve to be told that they are being (even ironically, indirectly, or subconsciously) as low as an ethnic cleanser, just because they believe there is a limit to how effective another human's peaceful methods are. Ghandhi was an amazing human. He was not a God or a hypnotist.
I'm not a control freak, I just like things my way reply share
Do you have any idea how brutal and oppressive the British Empire was in it's heyday? The British had a far more sense of entitlement and superiority towards other races than the Germans did circa 1933. If non-violence could be successful against the British, it could be successful against others. To say otherwise is inherently, if unwittingly, making the British a better race than others.
There have been strong and weak races and nations since civilization began. To suggest everybody is equal is just plain stupid and to take no account of the various events of history. Please return to reality.
Well then that's 90% of the world population, The Middle East, Mayans, India, Persia, China, and the West have all at one stage in history have been the number one civilization. Dark Ages in Europe and Islamic Golden Age are great examples of what you just stated. It looks like China will eventually go ahead of the US soon, the cycle will never end, till be become one world.
We will never become on world. There will always be religious, ethnic and national differences that will prevent it. The Federation is a great idea, but it ain't gonna happen, there are too many people that will be determined to not let it happen.
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
hey I know I will rattle many haters but based on your post there is only 1 nation still in existence today who completely was the same nation 3500 years ago: The Tribe of Israel.
We suffered the most, but always rise to the top. We are like Gandhi as a people always trying to be pacifists and submit to the various countries that allow us to prosper, then they come and massacre us....
I can tell you 100% while Gandhi's ideas are great in some situations, in a situation like Hitler, we had 10000 Gandhi's at least with all the righteous and amazing Jews who were very loyal to the state and were up right citizens that got gassed, murdered etc... I saw a picture the other day made me want to kill all german nazis and their friends. It was a picture of a mother and her 6 year old daughter in the firing line, the daughter looking back at the nazi shooters, who in about 2 seconds were going to shoot the mother, daughter and several others and let them drop into a huge mass grave.
Gandhi would be in that grave. Then they would of took a *beep* in his mouth maybe or rape his corpse. Then they would throw it somewhere and forget about it.
With those like nazi's the only way is to massacre them en-masse, and to kill everyone who associates themselves with such destructive ideas, until they beg for forgiveness.
Indeed that is what happened to Germany in WW2. Russia and the allies LITERALLY FACE RAPED EVERY GERMAN when they walked into germany. Nearly not 1 german girl/woman was not raped many times. They deserved it all. And more. As far as i'm concerned there should be nothing german anymore except things in museums.
I never watched Gandhi, but after this post and reading some pieces I am going to enjoy watching it! I definetly believe this method works in some cases, but only a real leader may realize that sometimes, you need to massacre your enemy into submission.
If you disagree, 100% within 1000 years your kind will cease to exist. The world is based on those who are the smartest, who are the strongest and those who force their way into power.
pretty much all Jews know that since 2000 years ago, we are forced to be subservient to our host nations. Our Jewish laws say explicitly we are to pay taxes, not rebel, and be loyal. So the Jews for the most part did this in Germany yet we got gassed and murdered and butchered.
No argument can be held here. We didnt do anything except enrich german culture to be murdered by an entire 'enlightened' people who were famous for having the strongest animal abuse laws. At the same time it was 100% encouraged to murder Jewish babies.
A true story for my Gandhi friends: A nazi soldier who was standing on guard at a death camp where saw thousands of children getting killed daily finally had his shift finish. He went out of the camp to the soldiers area, and went near the road to go for a walk. A car driving by hit a dog, and kept driving. The soldier ran up to the dog and started crying at the inhumanity that someone could hit a dog, and run away. What did the dog do to you!!! This man ensured men, women, children, and babies were put to death on a daily basis, but a dog getting hit by a car, it caused him to move to tears.
Think about that one.
Morality defined?
Certainly after the German example - not by humans.
If I was prime minister we would conquer the lands that are rightfully from Gd given to the Jewish people.
Islam is a curse.
If I had power I would move all arabs from gaza and west bank to other places! Just like the world recommends for the Jews!!!!
Now that the Jews after 2000 years have a place they dont have to be subserviant, the arabs and muslims come and spend trillions to demonize us.
Gandhi - what would you do? They want to kill all who do not submit to arab/islam pedophile/murder/genocide ways?
I tell you what to do - fear the day I come into power, for your kind will be wiped off the face of the earth, and only kindness, and caring about your neighbour instead of trying to kill them will be reality.
West Bank is such a modern term, its really Judea, Samaria, and the Shomrom. Our ancient lands, that have always had a presence.
There are some who are like Ghangis Khan. One day they will come into power, and Islam will finally be subdued forever!
Gandhi, peace and love forever!!!! Islam (Imperialism) shall one day be destroyed!!!!!
I tell you what to do - fear the day I come into power, for your kind will be wiped off the face of the earth, and only kindness, and caring about your neighbour instead of trying to kill them will be reality.
And the lack of logic in that sentence/sentiment eludes you?
It's not a mattter of opinion. It's a matter of logic and consistency. You either can't or won't be consistent. If the former, you're a psychopath; if the latter, you're a troll. .
The Gaza Strip was seized by and held in the possession of Egypt following the 1973 Yom Kippur War. The Palestinian State did not exist then because Jordan had seized the West Bank from the Palestinian Arabs to whom the UN had ceded it. Israel seized the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in that war in self defense. Anyone that wanted to continue to defend Israel would never want to return either to Palestinian control, because the "Palestinians" (really, the Palestinian Arabs, because Palestine was a province of Rome and Sephardic Jews are just as much Palestinian as any Arab born in the region. By the way, Yasir Arafat was an Egyptian) would simply be thrown out of the way or taken under control by a militant Arab state.
The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.
If non-violence could be successful against the British, it could be successful against others.
I never said "others." The OP never said "others." The OP said "the Nazis."
The point is, just because Gandhi's method was effective against the British, does not mean that it would necessarily be effective against any and all regimes.
...is inherently, if unwittingly, making the British a better race than others.
Again, that's bologna. Explain to me exactly how "less insane" equates "better."
If that's your idea of better, it's one hell of a lousy compliment.
I'd go so far as to say "far lazier and less ambitious in one's cruelty." That's what the British were. They employed methods that were less ambitious than the Nazis, which left the door open for non-violent response to be effective against them over time. The Nazis left no such door open for non-violent preachings to be worked against them.
Oh dear, now I've gone and practically "complimented" the Nazis just to make a point. [shakes head]
I'm not a control freak, I just like things my way reply share
I think what is not being taken into consideration is that Gandhi exposed the blatant hypocrisy of the British and he successfully used the media and press to highlight these contradictions.
I've gotten into debates with Brits who harp on the fact that it was the UK,,,,that ended the international (transatlantic slave trade).before slavery itself was outlawed in respective colonies of european powers...the trading across the atlantic was made illegal largely through the political force of groups in the UK..
After the Brits pat themselves on the back for that..I remind them that /england then turned around and colonised territory in every time zone on earth . the sun NEVER set on the british empire. They usually cease responding when that is brought up,
Colonization of places around the world, including India exposed England for the blatant contradictions between "being the moral force that ended the slave trade" to the impostion of neo slavery all across the world.
I've not studied MG in detail, but a man as learned as he was would clearly see and exploit the contradiction. Germany never made such claims of "morality" and in fact the Nazis were blatantly advocating what England was saying by deeds.."We are better than everyone else.....F other groups...they exist to serve us" .
How do you challenge the moral Christian values of a group that is not hiding behind that facade?How can you unmask someone who is not wearing a mask?
Exactly, that's a great and overlooked point. Here's something else to look for...
The British only withdrew their stakes in the slavetrade because they wanted to cease support for any sort of infrastructure which might provide more power to the New World and increase the New World's chances of being a successful nation on its own. If it was a conventional virtue for the Americas, Britain would naturally sabotage it.
They didn't do this out of morality, I can assure you.
The Nazis indeed made no mistake about their moral stance on life, or lack thereof. The British attempted to come off as decent human beings throughout their entire reign. Everything with the British empire was indirect. The Nazis were more direct.
No, the British aren't necessarily better people than the Nazis, but they certainly were better conquistadors than their German counterparts.
I'm not a control freak, I just like things my way
That's interesting. I've always beleived that the entire "let's ALL stop trading slaves" thing..rather than just England discontinuing participation, was self serving. France and Spain would continue to become more powerful, and Portugal also....if they continued with the slave trade and England just stopped.
So England appointed itself the "police of europe" and patrolled the atlantic for illegal slave ships....
the "Moral..christian" thing was just a smokescreen....it was in England's best interest to make sure that the other Euro powers didn't grow more powerful .
You're right that an added benefit was that the colonies grew more independent...english,spanish,french and portuguese
USA and Haiti had already split from their colonial mother countries, but the ending of the transatlantic slavetrade definitely played a a part in the wave of countries in western hemisphere declaring and fighting for independence.
You really need to bone up on your history. The British, when they had their empire, were just as "insane" as the Germans circa 1933-1945. Read what the British did the Australian Aborignes - especially in Tasmania. Calling completely wiping a race out "lazier and less ambitious"? In 1803 there were 15000+ Parlevar in Tasmania. By 1830 there were <200. By 1847, just 47 were still alive. The last remaining Parlevar died in 1905. An entire race gone.
Then there's the African slave trade started up and run by Britain for a couple of hundred years. During which time it's estimated over 10 million Africans were enslaved, many of whom died en route. How is this "less insane"? And we shouldn't forget the millions who died in Africa during Britain's rule there. Cutting off hands if the slave failed to meet their work quota, forced castrations, concentration camps (these didn't start in 1935: the idea was borrowed from the British), displaying Africans in zoos, the list goes on about how ambitious the British were in subjugating and destroying other cultures they deemed inferior.
Lest we forget, there's the opium wars which crippled China and killed millions. Britain enslaved China into opium addiction solely to redress balance of payments and then used the excuse China didn't like this to take over parts of China.
Over 15 million people starved to death in India in the late 19th Century which was partly due to the British not giving a damn about it and doing anything about it. Much the way they did in Ireland a couple decades earlier. While they were starving to death, farms were exporting food to England.
To say the British were somehow superior and thus succeptible to non-violent teaching that no other race is, is naiive and blinkered to say the least. You obviously have no idea about history.
Can we add that wherever the British gave TRUE independence (NOT where the Queen of England is still head of state) either a partition or a civil war followed? In many cases, both!
I will let the British defend their empire. It came, it went, they have learned and advanced.
What really disgusts me is all the people who had learned through the mistakes of others who believe in their arrogance that somehow they were born qualitatively different. That they have such a perfect blessing or morality, they know that if they had lived in the same place and time, they would have made better decisions.
While you are busy slamming Britain, keep in mind that it also played a major role in developing the moral standards that you depend on to judge them so harshly. You will probably also want to attack the United States for continuing to develop the standards that we inherited from the British.
By the way, the British did not start the racial slave trade, Portugal did. The largest number of slaves transported from Africa were sent by the Portuguese to Brazil. Spain also joined in and England (it was not yet Great Britain) came in late. I haven't studied how their slave trade developed, but I think it was part of the competition between them and Spain (allied with Portugal?). They sometimes went to a shooting war, but in between wars they competed strongly with each other in the Age of Exploration.
The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.
I don't think civil disobedience would always work, but I think it'd work more often than we give it credit for working. When dealing with big complex issues like this, there are no absolutes, and Hitler is not your average dictator in that he wanted to continually conquer more and more, many dictators simply aim to keep what they have.
I do think that America is war hungry, and that a large majority (not all) of our wars could have been easily avoided, and that people are far too eager for violence and especially to believe that violence is good because "bad people" are being killed. It's such a simplistic world view that often ends up making us more enemies. For example, most of the "bad guys" now were our allies in the 1980s when we were fighting the evil communists.
With Hitler, I do think he defeated himself by overreaching, but that the overreach was militarily, so yes, war does seem to have been justified, and also remember that World War II brought together the war of Japan against the Chinese. Massive crimes were happening on a massive scale. Still, if you know your history you know that the concentration camps were not widely talked about in the open, and many average German citizens were unaware of what was going on, partly because they didn't want to know. But had there been an "expose" of sorts, had footage and pictures of babies being burned alive and all those horrible things been released, I think Nazi Germany would have looked inward and that they potentially could have crumbled from inside. It's one thing to hate people and want to defeat them and crush them, it's another to know that you have those people locked up and are killing them in sadistic and unfair ways. No nation as a whole is so bloodthirsty that I think they would publicly and willing support that kind of sadism. A military, maybe (think Rape of Nanking), but an entire nation?
Just look at dictatorships today, the dictators rarely admit to the extent of their crimes and if they do they justify it by saying the victims were equally violent and thus "deserved it." No mass group of people likes the idea of helpless people being hurt and destroyed. Look at the US, we've killed a lot of people in Iraq. We point out the bad guys who deserved to go, and although we're aware that innocents and children and families have been hurt, we don't really talk about it because we want to believe that the ends justify the means and that more bad people are harmed than innocent. This is what the Nazis believed about the Jews. The Jews were dangerous to everyone else, so thus they had to go. But if people saw the footage of babies being burnt, saw it with their own eyes, and seeing just how helpless the people being slaughtered were and how sadistic the violence was, I think Hitler's Nazi empire would have crumbled from within.
Imagine if there was footage and proof of institutionalized, mass genocide committed by Americans toward Iraqis. America wouldn't be so split on the Iraq war politically anymore and we'd turn against our leaders who got us into that war and continued it. Of course, now that war is over, and it's like a dirty little secret nobody talks about because there wasn't obvious, clear victory. In short, we accept violence as a culture because we believe other people who have violent intentions are being put down. It's always explained as some sort of self-defense (ie Saddam had WMDs and was a threat to us). When that illusion is destroyed, I don't think any major nation could sustain itself, which is why the illusion is so important. Look at a civil war, too, like in Syria. Both sides claim the other is the aggressor, and that is what stokes the violence. "If I didn't do it to them, they woulda done it to me." If the people fighting for Assad believed him to be only a murderer and ruthless despot, they would stop fighting for him. But they believe him to be something else, so they fight on his behalf. The ends justify the means to them.
As a whole, the human race seems to be too quick to jump to a last resort (war) as the first and only proper action, and Gandhi proved that it can work other ways.
It could have worked, like someone else said, the Nazis would have felt shame to fight non-violent opponents since they were human too, the fact they fought more and more was because their enemies were reacting with violence as well, which made them think they were right all along.
As "bad" as the Nazis were, most of them thought they were doing the right thing, even Hitler. We gotta stop looking at them as if they were the bad guys, they were people like all of us fighting for what they believed.
His point was that if the German people had stood up to the National Socialists in the early to mid '30s and not followed like sheep, Hitler could have been defeated before it became a questions of armed conflict.
"Don't drink that @$$hole, you'll get malaria!..."