Okay, I'm going to take a different tack with this argument. I'm not going to dwell on specific clues or scenes that people typically use to validate their opinion. And, I don't care what Ridley Scott sez because he retconn'd the story many years after the original.
My argument is more basic. From a narrative point of view, Deckard as an android raises lots of questions and answers none of them.
i. For the purposes of the story, why WOULD Deckard be an android, i.e. is he some sort of new Replicant?
If he's a next gen combat model he's a miserable failure. He gets the crap beat out of him repeatedly. The only reason he isn't killed at the end is because Roy takes mercy on him.
ii. If he is a Replicant and not a true Blade Runner, why is he being used as one? Why is he exempt from the rule that Replicants aren't allowed on earth? Is he part of some elaborate field test?
If he's a Replicant, his true purpose remains a complete mystery to us, the audience. His story and evolution becomes less compelling because we don't know to what extent they are being manipulated by prior off screen events.
iii. Who knows that he is a Replicant?
Certainly Tyrell, since he's the inventor. Probably some people in the Tyrell corporation involved in the development of the Deckard model...
The entire Blade Runner division and a lot of cops in the chain-of-command would have to know that he is a robot implanted with false memories. Presumably Gaff and Bryant are part of this group of people.
They would all have to be part of the elaborate hoax not to tell him what he really is. But what is their motivation? (See ii. above...)
And with all of these illegal Replicants on the loose in LA, would it be wise to run some sort of test in which one Replicant is allowed to run around chasing the first bunch of Replicants?
Too many uncontrolled variables with no clear purpose equals a big risk of things going wrong... as they certainly do for Tyrell.
iv. Batty's powerful final monologue completely loses its steam.
"I've seen things YOU PEOPLE wouldn't believe..."
Epic epitaph, Roy, but the cruel joke is on you and the viewers. I'm just a robot like you. Cool thing you did with that dove though.
And some final food for thought...
The big argument that Deckard is a Replicant within the Director's Cut versions is the unicorn dream and Gaff's origami. However, I have a fun theory that sez Gaff is the Replicant, implanted with some of Deckard's memories. Maybe I'll share that one in a future thread...
"The custom-tailored, genetically engineered humanoid Replicant designed especially for your needs."
There is a significant difference between a human and a humanoid.
Depends on your point of view.
1. It would be hard to sell 'genetically engineered humans' ("that's what it is to be a slave"). Humanoids are much more palatable as a marketable entity. Calling Replicants 'humanoid' dehumanizes them.
2. Replicants are viewed as "machines" by cops, yet Tyrell calls them "more human than human." We're not told how the public views them. We only have vague hints as to how they are created.
3. In the past, certain groups of humans were marginalized by referring to them as sub-human, or humanoid. Likely the same attitude would continue into the future.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanoid A humanoid (/ˈhjuːmənɔɪd/; from English human and -oid "resembling") is something that has an appearance resembling a human being. The earliest recorded use of the term, in 1870, referred to indigenous peoples in areas colonized by Europeans.
What do we know? The four-year lifespan is genetically engineered by using Sebastian's genes; he ages more quickly because of Methuselah syndrome.
"Pris: Thanks. -- How old are you? Sebastian: Twenty-five. Pris: What's your problem? Sebastian: Methuselah's syndrome. Pris: What's that? Sebastian: My glands. They grow old too fast."
----
"Roy: Why are you staring at us Sebastian? Sebastian: Because. You're so different. You're so perfect. Roy: Yes. Sebastian: What generation are you? Roy: Nexus six. Sebastian: Ah, I knew it. 'Cause I do genetic design work for the Tyrell Corporation. There's some of me in you. Show me something. Roy: Like what? Sebastian: Like anything. Roy: We're not computers Sebastian, we're physical. Pris: I think, Sebastian, therefore I am. Roy: Very good Pris, now show him why. [Pris throws hot egg at Sebastian] Roy: We've got a lot in common. Sebastian: What do you mean? Roy: Similar problems. Pris: Accelerated decrepitude." Referring to the 4-year life span.
Also, we know that Chew makes, or at least designs, eyes for replicants. SOME replicants might need enhanced vision and would need their eyes replaced with superior designs.
"Chew: Don't know -- I, I don't know such stuff. I just do eyes. Just eyes -- Just genetic design -- just eyes. You Nexus, huh? I design your eyes. Roy: Chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes."
Appears like the question is still unanswered. Obviously, human DNA is used (Sebastian), but we don't know the process by which Replicants are created.
If you have an organ transplant, are you still human? If Roy has an eye transplant, does that make him less human? It's not like he's a Frankenstein-type monster, he's just an enhanced being with human DNA.
Good point: human or humanoid? It's not a cut and dried question. If they can reproduce with humans (which we don't know) then they are of our species, and therefore human. If they can't, is it by accident or design? An impotent or sterile human is still human although they cannot reproduce.
Impossible is illogical. Lack of evidence is not proof. + =
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But the difference between my sources and yours, Merriam-Webster - publisher specializing in definitions for over 150 years and Dictionary.com - the world's most visited digital dictionary, is that web surfers cannot modify the definitions.
Your source is visitor submitted and can be modified by web surfers. No offense, but I think I will stick with the 150 year old literary source rather than a website who's data is fed by internet surfers.
Your point is well taken, however: I'm an anthropologist; I consider and draw from many sources. It's the nature of the discipline.
Douglas Harper Entemology Dictionary. 1912 (adj.), an anthropological hybrid from human + -oid. As a noun, from 1925.
"It's not like he's a Frankenstein-type monster, he's just an enhanced being with human DNA."
So you don't support BB15's theory they are clones?
I don't support any theory; I support the facts as presented. Replicants may be clones, they may be grown through artificial insemination, or it may be an advanced process we can hardly imagine. We are not told.
BTW, cloned humans (if there were such things) would be cloned from human DNA, therefore essentially human. We do know they have human DNA, we do know they are artificial. Human or humanoid depends on your selection criteria. Is Dolly, the cloned sheep an ovisoid? Or is she a sheep?
I don't generally think that the oldest or most-used reference is the 'correct' one. Otherwise, I'd just use the Bible. 😇
So much fun sharing opinions with you.
Impossible is illogical. Lack of evidence is not proof. + =
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One of these days I'm going to cut you into little pieces.
Obviously, today is not that day. You are just being a boring troll. A narcissistic alleged doctor who just wants to win and have the last word.
Plus, you sure make a lot of incorrect assumptions in your most recent post. You misquote me numerous times.
Nothing you have said deserves any sort of polite response. I addressed all these attacks earlier, except for your questioning of my degrees and careers. Many people have multiple degrees and careers; I am one of these.
I used to enjoy sharing opinions with you;, but since you are now 'on the attack' so to speak, you have made yourself, and your comments, worthless of note.
Anybody can put Dr in front of their name, but those who have a need to do so are usually just seeking approval and false validation. You certainly don't act like a doctor of any sort. Not my field, but I'd guess family issues are at the root of your behavior: mommy, daddy or siblings.
Impossible is illogical. Lack of evidence is not proof. + =
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If the writer believed as you do that human and humanoid are one and the same, it would seem odd for him to even use such a description.
I never made that claim.
I'm hardly embarrassed. I'm not the one misrepresenting himself.
As far as being off-topic, I'm just responding to your poorly manufactured personal attacks and false allegations. If anyone started being off-topic it was you.
You seem to be getting desperate.
Impossible is illogical. Lack of evidence is not proof. + =
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"ad blimp: Use your new friend as a personal body servant or a tireless field hand -- the custom tailored genetically engineered humanoid replicant designed especially for your needs.."
Please note that this is advertising designed to appeal to the customers, as I previously stated. The writer probably knew this and adjusted his terms to the target audience. Most salespeople do, you know.
"Early in the 21st Century, THE TYRELL CORPORATION advanced robot evolution into the NEXUS phase - a being virtually identical to a human - known as a Replicant."
From your precious, antiquated, incontrovertible source material, i.e., Merrium-Webster:
"Definition of human 1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of humans 2 : consisting of humans 3 a : having human form or attributes 3 b : susceptible to or representative of the sympathies and frailties of human nature"
3 a is virtually identical to a human, and Replicants can be said to be characteristic of humans.
Whether Replicants were human or humanoid depends on certain biological characteristics, not a writer's interpretation based on an assumed target audience. Not even on a dictionary definition. The film does not provide information on those biological characteristics.
Why don't you give up on your silly, deliberate insults and vicious ad hominem attacks and stick to the OP?
Impossible is illogical. Lack of evidence is not proof. + =
Aww wassa matta widdle cwybaby edison, you so upset you're false reporting my posts now? A post that had absolutely no foul language, and was on topic?
You're funny, junior.
You're not. In my opinion, you're more like pathetic to resort to ad hominem attacks like this. Don't blame me if the moderators find you in violation. Besides, you're off-topic yet again.
Impossible is illogical. Lack of evidence is not proof. + =
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Impossible is illogical. Lack of evidence is not proof. + =
As much as I love philosophical debates and movies with questions that fans can discuss for years afterward, the whole "Is Deckard a Replicant or not" argument is one that I never understood in the first place. Yet whenever I search on the Internet, it seems almost all of the arguments I find are in favor of Deckard being a Replicant.
Now I've seen the original version of Blade Runner on TV and I have the DVD of the Director's Cut from 1992 (which I personally prefer), and in both versions I still believe that Deckard is human. In fact, the major reason it seems that people are still claiming Deckard must be a Replicant is because Ridley Scott decided he wanted to have Deckard be a Replicant too.
However, there are multiple reasons presented throughout the film that explains why Deckard is NOT a Replicant:
1.) Batty and his group are all Nexus-6 models, which are the most advanced Replicants out there which is why they have the Voight-Kampf Test, because there's no other way to tell if they aren't human. Deckard has been a Blade Runner for years and is even "retired," which means he can't be a Nexus-6 because he wouldn't be able to pass as a human.
2.) As I just mentioned, Deckard is "retired," or at least on break from being a cop at the beginning of the film. If Deckard was a Replicant, he wouldn't be "retired" as in quit working, he'd be "retired" as in "executed" like other Replicants to prevent him from going rogue. The cops even make it a point to call it "retirement," so it wouldn't make sense for them to call Deckard "retired" and have him still on the loose. Also, if he was a Replicant and was allowed to retire like a human, he'd pose too much of a risk out walking the streets.
3.) Why would Tyrell explain to Deckard the whole process of implanted memories and fooling Replicants into thinking they're human? If Deckard were a Replicant, then doing so would only cause him to begin doubting himself until he uncovered the truth, and that would pose a huge risk to both Tyrell and the cops. Especially for Tyrell, since he needs the Blade Runner to stop his defective products wandering the streets and causing another Replicant to go rogue would be counter-productive.
4.) If Deckard was a Replicant, then he would likely be a combat model like Batty or the other Replicants. However, Deckard is repeatedly almost killed by the Replicants because his reflexes aren't as fast and he isn't nearly as strong. If Deckard was a Replicant, then that means he isn't aware of his own advanced capabilities (which would be a complete waste of the police department's time on having their own Replicant in the first place). And again, he wouldn't be a Nexus-6 model and thus wouldn't be able to pass for human anyway.
5.) Everybody points to the origami unicorn as a definitive sign that Deckard must be a Replicant because that must mean that Gaff knows Deckard's dreams. Again, even if Deckard were a Replicant, he couldn't be one of the most recent models. Rachel isn't even a Nexus-6, she's an experimental model, and Tyrell suggests as much. The whole "implanting memories to make them think they're human" thing isn't Replicant-wide, it's something the Tyrell Corporation is just now starting to experiment with. That means Deckard couldn't have implanted memories because Rachel is the only Replicant who has those because she's practically just out of the laboratory.
6.) As for Deckard dreaming about a unicorn in the first place, remember when Deckard asks Rachel if their owl is artificial, to which Rachel replies "Obviously" and that it is very expensive. The Earth by 2019 has become extremely heavily industrialized and thus extremely polluted. This is even reflected in how the government is urging people to move to colonies in outer space.
With the environment so f!cked up, animals of any species are most likely extinct, or on the verge of it. Seeing an animal in real-life for people in 2019 that wasn't artificial would be like seeing something out of mythology, like a UNICORN. Seeing something mythological like a unicorn, when normal animals are an extreme rarity, is certainly impossible. Also notice how the rest of Deckard's dream takes place in a lush woodland environment, which would also be an impossibility in the Los Angeles of 2019 where people like Deckard probably spend their entire lives. It could just be Deckard's subconscious trying to reconcile with the industrialized world he lives in.
7.) Gaff revealing that he supposedly knows Deckard's dreams and thus revealing to Deckard that not only is he a Replicant but that the cops have known this whole time would only create more problems. Deckard is known as the best Blade Runner the police department's ever had, and the case involving Batty's group has shaken Deckard to his core psychologically. The cops are probably aware of this considering they're carrying out 24/7 surveillance on everyone and Gaff is definitely keeping tabs on Deckard. If the cops know that Deckard is already unstable and then Gaff decides at that time to shatter Deckard's sense of identity and reality, then all they're doing is just asking for the best Blade Runner they've ever had to go rogue. Which again, if he's a Replicant owned by the police than it would make no sense for them to do so.
8.) Gaff leaving Deckard an origami unicorn does not automatically mean he's seen Deckard's dreams anyway. A quick scan of the Wikipedia article on unicorns says under "Middle Ages and Renaissance" that "Interpretations of the unicorn myth focus on the medieval lore of beguiled lovers", or that "the lover is attracted to his lady as the unicorn is to the virgin." I know Wikipedia is not a definitive source but for the purpose of argument that sounds a little bit like Deckard and Rachel's relationship. Both are now going to be hunted by the police because Rachel is a Replicant and Deckard has been sheltering her. Or that Rachel is a "virgin" in the sense that she's just discovered her humanity and emotions, or in the more literal sense as she's likely never had a relationship before Deckard.
Gaff is a smart fellow and is able to pick up on Deckard's emotions. He does a chicken when Deckard tries to get out of the case, he does a man with an erection after Deckard meets Rachel, and does the unicorn at the end. Other interpretations of the unicorn depict virgins (Rachel) taming the unicorn (in this case Deckard), allowing the unicorn to be hunted. If this is the definition of what Gaff meant, then it could just be Gaff being a smart@$$ by showing the best Blade Runner being "tamed" by a virgin/Replicant/Rachel. Honestly, just about all of these different mythological depictions of the unicorn I think could be applied to Deckard and Rachel equally, which is one of the reasons why I love this movie.
9.) Gaff has already shown he's aware of Deckard's relationship with Rachel because he's constantly following Deckard, and is probably who the cops have tailing Deckard in case they need to call him in again. He left the origami man with an erection to show he's figured out how Deckard feels about Rachel, and he says "It's a shame she won't live. But then again who does?" showing that he understands Rachel is going to have to be "retired." However, at the end Deckard finds an origami unicorn in his apartment where Rachel is staying.
Whereas Deckard seems to resent Gaff (probably because it's his job to keep an eye on Deckard) and get frustrated and irritated by him, Gaff left a unicorn at his apartment instead of alerting the police or "retiring" Rachel himself to show Deckard that he's not going to touch Rachel or get them in trouble. Maybe Gaff was listening in on Deckard's apartment and heard Deckard tell Rachel that he wouldn't come after he, but "others" (meaning the police) would. It could be that Gaff, already aware of their secret relationship, knew Deckard's concerns about the omnipresent police and wanted to let his fellow cop know that he would leave Deckard be.
10.) Deckard could've come into work one day and said to Gaff "I had this really weird dream about a unicorn." Or the cops have to undergo psychological testing (which wouldn't be all that unusual for a cop whose job it is to "retire" Replicants that look and act exactly like people) and told the psychiatrist "I've had weird dreams about unicorns once in awhile." Gaff, being Deckard's tail, read his dossier, found out about Deckard's dreams that way and decided to screw with him.
Basically, the main reason I always seem to find for Deckard being a Replicant is either because people say "Gaff knows Deckard's dreams" or "Ridley Scott wanted it to be so it is." Scott himself has taken up the position that if you don't believe Deckard then you're a moron, and honestly as much as I like Scott's work I think that's kind of a d!ck move to the fans. Especially since, aside from a few brief scenes like the origami unicorn, nothing else in Blade Runner was filmed to support Deckard being a Replicant, and as stated above the whole movie is full of reasons why he isn't.
Sorry if it seems like my post got a little long, but I'm just tired of people saying Deckard HAS to be a Replicant and that's how it is. Hopefully I've explained my case well.
Can't be too careful with all those weirdos running around.
Whoa... long reply and lots of thought put into it.
I'm also firmly in the 'Deckard is human' camp. However, from my extensive Internet research during the last few months, I've been convinced that Scott always had the idea to make Deckard a Replicant as far back as the original release. However, for whatever reason, Deckard's origins are not made explicit in the movie, and I have to admit that the ambiguity makes for a more intriguing movie. Harrison Ford said it best with "It's not so much the answer that is important as the question." or words to that effect.
FWIW, Youtube is full of deleted scenes from the movie including an extended ending. Link below...
Deckard replies to Rachel's question about his wife: "I THOUGHT I loved her." It suggests he's not sure of his own memories.
She also says to him: "I think we were made for each other." which suggests she knows that he is as artificial as she is.
Anyway, I will play devil's advocate a bit here.
Rachel is evidence that Tyrell Corp are experimenting with a new model of Replicant designed to move undetected among the human population.
What if Deckard is another example of this new type of model? What if he is actually being field tested to see if he too can pass undetected among humans?
They can't make him too strong or super-human because that would immediately identify him as a Replicant. So they make him just slightly tougher than a normal human and implant him with memories of a career up to and including his retirement. The test is to see if he could successfully take out a team of rogue Replicants using just his human-scale resources. (He fails the test BTW since Batty could have killed him, but for his final act of mercy...)
Gaff is there to keep tabs on him and monitor his progress. Gaff's animosity may stem from the fact that he abhors the idea of Replicants being considered for general integration into the human population. Or -- here's an intriguing idea -- perhaps Deckard's implanted memories are those of Gaff's ex-partner who was killed by a Replicant. There's a whole other story right there that could be tapped.
Perhaps Gaff doesn't/can't kill Deckard at the end because he -- Deckard -- is a very expensive prototype and part of an ongoing experiment by the authorities/government. But, he does encourage Deckard to flee with Rachel with the hope that neither of them will live long.(He might not know that they have an indeterminate lifespan.)
It's all just fun speculation on my part. For my money, Deckard is human but I wouldn't mind if the upcoming sequel maintained the mystery.
Pretty much agree with everything in your post, CovertThunder. I'm of the opinion that Deckard and Gaff started thinking about unicorns with regards to Rachael's case independent of each other, without Gaff actually knowing about Deckard's daydreams.
For me, I simply think the story works better with "Deckard as human". A human burnt out on life that learns to live again by romancing/observing an artificial human is more compelling than an "artificial human that doesn't know it is artificial" in a story that basically goes nowhere with this angle outside of very vague suggestions that the protagonist might be artificial.
--- It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .