Was that meant to in any way make a statement about how we, men, even as kids tend to have thoughts of old naked ladies around us gross whereas the vision at least of young ones mesmerizes us, which sorta says something about how we perceive women as men even as we grow up into becoming male adults.
What did Kubrick himself think here?
I think it was meant to show Jack struggling with the allure of the hotel. He almost completely gave in when confronted by the beautiful woman, but when he saw his own reflection, he realized for a moment, what was really there.
shareAh, OK, so it wasn't meant to be a deep commentary on the nature of men, youth and human beings.
shareHere's something weird I bet you never noticed before. Check out this clip of the Gold Room sequence from the movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRviKZEWcug
Check out starting around 2:24 to 2:30. Just before Grady stains Jack's jacket with the advocat, we see a young woman with a white dress walk past him. Now, I have no way of knowing whether or not that was actress Lia Beldam who played the young women in the bath, because I can't see her face. However, if you look carefully on her backside see we see a red hand print stain on her dress in the exact place where Jack places his hand on her buttocks when she appears in the bathroom. So, is that meant to be the same character, is it the same actress? Furthermore, if you look carefully, seat at the end of the bar you see an older women wearing a similar white dress. So, at the exact moment we see Jack stained with advocat by Grady, a woman with a red hand-print stain walks past, and all the while an older blonde women (the same actress playing the hag in the bathroom scene?) in similar clothing to the young women in white is seated at the end of the bar.
That's really cool. Thanks.
shareWhether this is true or not, Kubrick definitely did do something similar at the end of Eyes Wide Shut, where you see the long-haired blonde waiter and the two old bald guys (seated near the winged statue by the stair case) at Ziegler's Christmas Party reappear milling around the toy store in the film's final scene.
shareAnd Cruise and Kidman's daughter heads off toward those men and we never see her again.
shareI have a few theories about that last scene with the daughter. I think Kubrick was referencing Homer's Illiad, just he used Homer's Odyssey in 2001. The Iliad is the story of the Trojan War which was started when Helen of Troy ran off with (or was abducted) by Paris. This is perhaps an echo of Alice's story about running off with the naval officer in the movie. The daughter was named Helena and Ziegler's wife was named Ilena (a variation on Helen). So what we may be seeing at the end is a foreshadowing of Helena's future. Perhaps she will take after her mother and run off with a handsome man, or perhaps she will take after Ilena and become a trophy wife of some rich man like Ziegler. So, I don't think Kubrick is literally suggesting that Helena is going to be abducted by the bald guys (who were also seen at Ziegler's Christmas party), so much as he is commenting on sexual desire and the role of women in society. It's also interesting that Kubrick had a falling out with his daughter Vivian between Full Metal Jacket and this film, when she joined Scientology. Perhaps there is a bit of autobiographical commentary going on with Helena also.
shareWho knows. One thing people fail to notice with Kubrick is his sense of humor. I think he liked to do things to screw with the audience, keep them constantly guessing.
sharewe see a red hand print stain on her dress in the exact place where Jack places his hand on her buttocks when she appears in the bathroomThat's false. The stain is right on the woman's butt and is oriented with palm-stain down and finger-stains vertical above that. We *never* see Jack place his hand on the woman in the bathroom's back that far down or with that orientation. Rather Jack's hand is always oriented sideways (fingers horizontal) and rises from the side and just above the woman's hip to the small of her back.
Humor me for a moment. It's still very much resembles a bloody hand print on the young woman's left butt cheek. The location of the hand print is too close for comfort for me and does seem to hearken back to that scene in the bathroom. Also, his hand clearly does make contact with her in that part of her anatomy, so the exact position of his hand isn't necessarily a deal breaker. What Kubrick changed the position of the hand print on her dress for purely aesthetic reasons or because he wanted it to be recognizable as a hand print and not something else? It's also a question of timing. What about the fact of the old woman at the bar and the young woman walking past? The staining of Jack's jacket with advocat by Grady occurs just as she passes near them and the old woman at the bar. I love to get the names of those two actresses in the Gold Room scene. That would put this question to bed one way or the other once and for all. You make a valid observation, but haven't nearly debunked it yet, in my humble opinion.
shareWhat about the fact of the old woman at the barShe doesn't look old to me, 30-something at most, so I don't follow that part of your argument at all I'm afraid.
The old woman is actually on a table to the left of Jack as he walks to the toilet with Grady. She's got a green dress and a lace head-dress on and she turns to watch Jack as he passes.
shareYep, it looks like the old decayed woman, without the decay. Creepy! As is the handprint on the dress.
It's a scare jump. Kubrik was genious: you think ghosts are scary? Try meeting a naked old lady when you're going to take a bath.
shareThe woman in the bathroom was - when she was young (and alive) - Lorraine Massey, who used to seduce men (mainly the bellboys) in the Overlook back to her room in 217/237 for sex. Full of self loathing, she killed herself in the bathtub by slitting her wrists. That's according to the book. The 1997 miniseries, I THINK - don't quote me - showed that she was shot and killed in the bath tub by someone hired by Horace Derwent, the original owner of the Overlook, but I don't remember why. I vaguely recall that Horace was married and Lorraine knew that he had affairs with men, but I have NO idea where it was I read that, so it may not even be a thing. I can only assume that in Kubrick's version, which told us NOTHING about her, that she was just another part of the hotel's dark history, and her appearance to Jack was a part of that past manifesting to weaken Jack.
Her character also visits Danny in King's follow up novel, Dr. Sleep. But I haven't read the book. I've only read reviews, so I know nothing about why she's there.
For some reason I assumed it was the wife that was murdered. and the ghost of it. remember the old lady tried to strangle Danny as well so it wasn't just Jacks vision.
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