Why do people believe Shogun is so great? - Shogun (1980) Discussion

[–] dmccarty 20 years ago

If you watched the movie from a Western perspective without trying to understand the Japanese culture then I agree with you. None of that really makes sense and you have the right to feel frustrated. You should also feel guilty, since you just wasted 10 hours of your life and will never be able to get them back.

On the other hand, if you watch the movie and try to understand what's going on I think you'll get a much more fascinating experience. "Love" is a Western concept that was as foreign to Japanese as Bushido was to Englishmen. Did Blackthorne seem upset when Mariko was killed? He sure did in the movie I saw. Did we watch the same movie?

BTW, I read the book years and years ago. I only found out a few months ago that there was a movie. So I rented the videos and watched them over the last few weeks. I think this is a great movie.

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] Charley667 18 years ago

People probably think its so great because its really the only miniserise of its kind.

I mean there are a million set during the civil war but is there another one set in Japan during this time period? Its also a heck of a lot more subtle and paced because it has time to be not like most movies that usually skip charecter development and go right to the parts where people get their heads chopped off.

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[–] [email protected] (2042) 10 months ago

Love is not a Western concept, it existed in the Middle East and Southern Asia. By love I'll assume you mean romantic love because filial love existed in the east and other non western nations.

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[–] st3vex610-1 20 years ago

I am reading the book right now. The paperback is about 1200 pages long. I have about 200 pages to go and I can't put it down. I was thinking to myself "they should make a movie or a mini series for this", and then I came here and found it. The book was great. Great story of medieval japan (I am sorta in Samurai culture), great character development (you see blackthorne go from a "barbarian" to a hatamoto and samurai, and it gives a pretty accurate depiction of japanese culture 500 years ago. It might be a bit long and boring at times, but if you have the patience and attention span, then you'll love it.

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[–] GurnBlenston 20 years ago

Hmmmm, in reply to the poster who argued that viewing this from a 'japanese' perspective reveals hidden trasures....well a lot of japanese film makers though that SHOGUN was absolutely dreadful, a fast food version of japanese history (kurosawa epecially hated it), and i have to agree- it's sort of OK in an early 80s mini series kind of way, but it drags and the whole premise seems just a little silly.

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[–] biggiesmartypants 20 years ago

I agree, it's completely eurocentric, with evil, ugly Japanese and of course the big hero being a westerner (just like The Last Samurai). In 1980 views in history werent so prejudiced and wrong anymore, but i guess the mainstream doesnt care about accuracy.
(And i think the story is a drag and the characters are walking cliche's)

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[–] egrorian 18 years ago

Many people believe it is so great because it is a masterpiece - and my all time favourite "film".

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[–] Herreken 18 years ago

Biggiesmartypants, "I agree, it's completely eurocentric, with evil, ugly Japanese and of course the big hero being a westerner (just like The Last Samurai).

Off topic but I don't think The Last Samurai made the Japanese look bad or ugly. If anything, white Westerners were the ones who were made to look like the bad guys.

Back on topic: I'm only on the 3rd Disc of Shogun and it's disappointing. It's often boring and I don't like the fact that there are no subtitles for the Japanese language. I'd find this even more boring if I did not read the book and I doubt I'd continue on to Disc 4 without having read the book.

I thought the book was great! I haven't read a book this good in years. It's one of the few books where I never found a boring moment. Everything was very interesting especially how different the Japanese were from Westerners. I don't think the mini-series shows that enough, especially with how revolting the Japanese people found Blackthorne to be.

DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

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[–] carlos_luna 17 years ago

Herreken, subtitles would have been terrible for this movie, the experience of watching it like it is is meant to put you in a similar position as Blackthorne and thus make you feel more in relation to the character.

I personally think its great as it is, I finished the 3rd disc last night and its wonderful.

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[–] Herreken 17 years ago

Carlos, I see what you're saying, but there should at least have been sub-titles for the Japanese dialogue when Blackthorne wasn't around.

DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

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[–] hitmanzer0 17 years ago

Aye, that scenes were complety useless.

And the unfitting music nearly made the whole series unwatchable.

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[–] spawnie41 18 years ago

Hey to GurnBlenston,

Kurosawa probably hated it because it had Toshiro Mifune in it, and those guys hated each other. Its a fun show, maybe the last chapter tried to wrap everything up, seeming as the rest of the show was pretty drawn out. Overall, though i had a good time watching it, and dont believe that 9 or 10 hours of my life has been wasted!

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] spawnie41 18 years ago

Good call man, youre dead on. I honestly didnt enjoy Kagemusha as much as Shogun, but its still pretty awesome, they are nowhere near as good as Ran. But with Shogun, i had more time to get to know the characters and to get into the the plot. Kagemusha felt that it needed a bit more time. It needed to be like Ran or Seven Samurai, which were long enough to dwell on the characters, and find out what they were like.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] spawnie41 18 years ago

Man, Mifune is awesome in this movie. Kagemusha wasnt that bad. But check out ran sometime soon. You can get Shogun in a 5 dvd box set, with documentaries and the like. in Australia the tape is really freakin hard to get a hold of. I have 5 video shops around where i live, and only one had the whole lot. then they threw it out in the whole dvd takeover thing. If you can get hold of the DVD do it, it looks really nice.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] spawnie41 18 years ago

Chamberlain calls a guy a poxy bastard in the first ten minutes, then gets pissed on!! And John Rhys Davies if you think hes cool. Man those Criterion dvds are expensive hey, i just settle for the normal ones. Theyre good enough. Only Criterion collection i want is Ran. Happy Hunting.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] spawnie41 18 years ago

Ohhhh, in Australia, we have a selection called eastern eye, and they have the entire Kurosawa collecion minus Kagemusha and Ran. Theyre all over ebay. And Seven Samurai Yojimbo and Sanjuro are all as nice as the criterion colections, picture wise. Presentation wise and features wise, they are crap.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] spawnie41 18 years ago

Im region 4, but i have numerous region 2 and 1 dvds.

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[–] sophia2206 18 years ago

It's interesting in that for the time it tried hard to show Japanese culture as something more than Kamikazes and Geisha. I remember everyone being intrigued that there were no subtitles in the original mini so that the audience could feel as clueless as Blackthorne. It's also great if you are a Clavell fan.

As far as Blackthorne being a hero, he starts off a smelly crude idiot who must be tamed and civilized. It's interesting to watch him try to manipulate a situation so totally beyond his comprehension and to watch Toranaga unfold as the master manipulator.

It's a broad fictionalization of historical characters (look it up on Wikipedia.com to get a fuller picture of where it diviates from truth) that at least for me, gave me a desire to learn more about Japanese history and culture. As a calling card from Japan to the American middle class it could have been worse. And if it gave someone an urge to look into Kurasawa and great Japanese film, all the better.

________________________________________Isn't it pretty to think so?

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

Well said, that's why Shogun should be given the benefit of the doubt for some inaccuracies and broad characterizations and situations. Both Clavell's novel and the miniseries based on his book (adapted for the screen by Eric Bercovici) were intentionally pro-Japanese. The series was great for not only being a terrific story and nice to look at but introduced many Americans to Japanese history. Clavell's book was a novel not a history book per se so although he apparently got a lot of details correctly it is not a definitive one-volume Japanese history of that era! As sophia2206 said at the very least the series could be a springboard for viewers wanting to learn more about Japan and its history. Surely most American viewers had no idea who Toshiro Mifune was at that time and how important he was in Japanese cinema. There were a lot of "firsts" to American audiences with the miniseries: the only USA TV production filmed entirely in another country, the largest budget for a TV miniseries at that time, all Japanese dialog without subtitles.

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[–] Killa_Priest 18 years ago

never watched, like the book so much but have always thought the show didnt look like to captured the book properly so avoided but the book was probably the best ive read

dubs

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[–] brendangrehan 17 years ago

I bought Shogun on dvd after reading the recommendations on IMB. I watched the first episode two months ago and found it incredibly boring and slow-moving.
I don't know if I could put myself through the torture of watching the whole thing.
I remember when it was on tv in the early 80s and I thought it was pretty boring back then. While other mini-series like "North and South" are cheesier they are far more entertaining than Shogun.
On a small aside, the Mitsubishi suv the Pajero (called the Montero in Europe) was renamed the "Shogun" for the UK market as a result of the success of the mini-series. Also Bristol Rugby Club were known as the "Bristol Shoguns" for a number of seasons.
regards,
Brendan Grehan, Dublin, Ireland.

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[–] turtletommy 17 years ago

Personally I wouldn't have bought the entire set having not seen it in decades, even with lots of recommendations. I borrowed it from my local library recently. I loved it the first time it was on back in 1980 in the States and still enjoyed it and thought it had held up surprisingly well over the years.

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[–] movie_nazi 12 years ago

Kurosawa probably hated it because it had Toshiro Mifune in it, and those guys hated each other.

Really? Then why did they do over 20 movies together? I never heard before they hated each other.

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[–] ranran-001 12 years ago

Their professional working relationship ended in 1965 with the movie Red Beard. Toshiro was a huge star in Japan, and was working on many projects and according to behind the scenes stories, he was frustrated to being tied down to making only Red Beard.

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[–] Highice007 18 years ago

Read the Novell by James Clavell, it will explain everything. I think that you will understand all after that.

*Forever Cho Chang Fan*
Cho's story continues at: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1552296/1/

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[–] unusualsuspect-1 18 years ago

I've read the book several times, and the movie is weak tea in comparison. Pretty typical Hollywood cliches. All the Japanese women are fascinated by Blackthorne despite Clavell's making it perfectly clear that the smell of a Westerner, particularly one who didn't think much of baths, was disgusting to them. As someone said, Chamberlain was wooden, and the long takes on his face contributed nothing. Overall, the direction was slow and stodgy, and the score was one of the very worst I've heard--loud, obtrusive, and very Western.

I saw the cut version many years ago, and wanted to see the whole thing because the book is so impressive. What a disappointment.

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[–] chrisimdb-5 18 years ago

If your interested in the character Blackthorn is based on, its William Adams, copy/past this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_%28sailor%29

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[–] jory-nori-1 18 years ago

thanks for bringing that up. it seems that some of the critics here don't realize that it was based on a real person. his grave is near my neighborhood!

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[–] annathedub 18 years ago

Shogun ranks in my top 5 books of all time, I read it every couple of years or so. And still, every time I start that book, I become once again totally engrossed in it. I also love the miniseries, which I have on dvd. I think that the reason why people believe Shogun is so great, is because it draws you in to a completely different world, one that is very alien to us, and also gives you a cracking adventure story to boot. When I originally read Shogun in 1977 (I was 15) it engendered in me a fascination with Japan and its culture which persists to this day. My copy of Shogun sits on my bookshelf in pride of place alongside Taiko and Musashi.

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[–] mr_niceguy105 18 years ago

I hope the op is commenting on the mini series and not the hacked up junk movie they made out of it. Different animals

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[–] Killa_Priest 18 years ago

Musashi.

ah im reading musashi- will have to check out taiko- nice one!!

dubs

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[–] ranmel 18 years ago

"No chemistry" in the love story??? Uhhhhh, how do I break this gently...? I'm pretty sure that Mr. Chamberlain is a little "light in his loafers".

I remember watching Shogun as a kid and being utterly fascinated by it. Who knew I would end up visiting Tokyo five times in the last six years. I cant seem to get enough of that place. I guess that mini-series has ended up costing me a lot of dough. ;)

No, its not Kurosawa or Ozu, but it introduced an entire generation in America to Japanese culture.

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

That's probably the mini-series' most enduring legacy, that it introduced a generation of Americans to Japanese culture. But it was a good entertainment too! I thought there was some chemistry in the love story, and though Chamberlain wasn't a great actor I thought he did a very commendable and believable job. Chamberlain was gay and passed away I think a couple years ago. If "light in the loafers" as you put it he certainly had a long successful career cast as a leading man in many romantic films and his breakthrough role as Dr. Kildare.

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[–] annathedub 18 years ago

Richard Chamberlain is very much alive and kicking. He is now in his 70s and said, when he came out, that he no longer had to pretend as he was not a leading man anymore.

Shogun was shown all over the world, and although an American production, it did introduce a generation of Europeans to Japanese culture too.

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

I bet he was sorry to read that he was dead! (<: Oops, coulda sworn he had passed obviously I had him confused with someone else...

Yeah that's true that since he was past the age of a leading man anyway why not stop pretending. At any rate in his earlier closeted years he did fine as the romantic leading man and after all whatever his persuasion it was a thing called acting right?

You're right about the series being seen by more than just Americans, since it was an American production and the miniseries seemed to be primarily intended for the American audience I was thinking more in that vein - was it shown as a miniseries in Europe or just as a shortened theatrical film as I've read?

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[–] annathedub 18 years ago

I originally saw it as a mini series about 6 months after it was broadcast in the US. I then saw it again repeated during the mid 90's. Obviously, when it came out on dvd, I bought it,(actually had it on pre-order which is very unusual for me). I have a VHS version knocking around the house somewhere too.

I suppose it was primarily intended for a US audience (made by an American studio to be broadcast on US television) but I am convinced the studios had their eye on the whole world. First off, it was an adaptation from a book, which was not really aimed at just the US, more the whole English speaking world (until that was expanded with the translating into so many other languages). Secondly, although I accept that the main man was American (understandable in an American production), a lot of the non Japanese actors were in fact British, Michael Hordern, Alan Badel, John Rhys Davies, as well as some other actors who although not British generally ply their trade in the UK, like Damian Thomas. This convinces me that the studio had their eye on the world market, if not they would not have bothered having authentic Japanese actors playing their roles. Nevertheless, whomever it was intended for, it is still one of my all time favourite mini series. Not as good as the wonderful book, of course, but still an excellent series.

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

Oh I'm sure too that it was intended for a worldwide audience, for the reasons you gave and to help recoup the investment. Certainly casting Toshiro Mifune was a nod to the world audience (not really the American except the art house crowd), and not really the Japanese one from what I've gathered. I don't think the Japanese audience thought that much of the series and the simplistic way it portrayed their history and culture. This isn't so much a knock on the filmmakers and screen writer who had sort of dumbed-down things for western audiences, but the Japanese audience would have naturally been more sophisticated about their own culture and history and a tougher judge.

Let's not forget too whether intended or not American cinema and some of its television programming has a huge international appeal- despite the critics that are always bemoaning the quality and cultural invasiveness of American exports.

I wonder if the casting of authentic Japanese actors wasn't also just a cultural crossroads event, that the days of substituting non-Asian, or American Asian, or the short list of often-used Asian actors that Americans were familiar with had passed.

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[–] annathedub 18 years ago

'Let's not forget too whether intended or not American cinema and some of its television programming has a huge international appeal- despite the critics that are always bemoaning the quality and cultural invasiveness of American exports.'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha, yes. This made me laugh. I have a large television dvd library and I have to say that at least 80-85% of my television dvds are American tv shows. Lack of quality? I don't think so! Six Feet Under, The Wire, Babylon 5, The West Wing, the new Battlestar Galactica, The Shield, Rome, and so on. In my opinion, the overwhelming majority of quality television these days is coming from the US.

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

You have heard past criticism about American television haven't you though? I agree that the best USA stuff is very good. I don't watch much series TV anymore- I was more into it when X-Files, Northern Exposure, Star Trek Next Generation were going strong. Heck I even religiously watched season 1 & 2 of Survivor before like most of this stuff it lost its appeal. Are you in the U.K. you didn't say. We certainly have mined the British TV series for ideas over the years. Many of the best and some controversial American shows in the late 60s/early 70s (All in the Family, Sanford & Son, etc) were based on Brit shows and of course shows like The Office now.

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[–] annathedub 18 years ago

I do now live in the UK. I am from Dublin so we received all the British tv channels when I was growing up so I am well steeped in British tv culture. Yes, I have heard the, in my opinion, unfair criticism levelled at the US. I have always thought that it contained just a hint of jealousy. Of course, there is some rubbish that comes out of the US, but you can say that about any country. That being said, when the BBC get their act together, they can produce some of the most phenomenal programmes I have ever seen. Unfortunately, these days they are few and far between, most of them are from some time ago, like Smiley's People, I Claudius, Pride and Prejudice and so on. Although the recent Life on Mars was exceptional (I have heard that it is going to be remade in the US, hope it is as good), and I have really enjoyed Hornblower, Sharpe and Foyle's War which were all made by ITV. I think that the creative writing in Britain is still top notch, it is just that production values in the US are generally better financed than any of the British programmes made today. This is exceedingly obvious when it comes to special effects, for example Battlestar Galactica or Band of Brothers, which are so realistic you can almost believe you are there. And of course from a personal point of view, watching American tv is somewhat exotic as it is a different culture from British/Irish culture separated (so it is said) by a common language.

On a side note, I had the privilege of visiting America last year for a holiday staying with my cousin in California. Everyone made me so welcome (although a lot of people had trouble understanding my Dublin accent) and I will definitely go back again.

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

Kind of you to fill me in on some things about yourself and other matters. It's interesting to hear other viewpoints. I'm in the Seattle area, Washington State in the U.S. Pacific NW. I agree that the money seems to be in the USA to finance so many of these projects, and at least with production values that is readily seen onscreen. Writing and acting is more debatable. I love the fact that so many European ( the Continent) and U.K. actors and especially the women (Redgrave, Dench, Maggie Smith, et al) can be so productive for so long and don't fight the aging process like so many Hollywood actors do. I enjoy shows like Hornblower, I Claudius, P & P, and others such as the many David Attenborough nature programs, Enchanted April (why this isn't on DVD here is maddening), Secrets and Lies, Vera Drake, The Queen and the many casual lightweight comedy/dramas the British do so well (that's NOT a criticism!).

I do notice, though not at all a fan, that Dr. Who has at least improved its special effects with CGI work because it had some pretty bad ones before. It certainly has a cult status over here but I found it awfully dull. Yes Band of Brothers is IMO the best WW2 film(s) ever made- much better than Saving Private Ryan because they could spend more time on characters. Life on Mars sounds familar but I can't recall what it is about (other than life on Mars??? Laugh).

It's interesting but not surprising that Americans find other countries tv/movie fare somewhat exotic as well.

Anyway, nice to chat with an ex-Dubliner (though I assume you are always one eh?). I laughed at the "separated by a common language" quote because I've used it a lot and appreciate it. Would LOVE to travel to Ireland and the U.K someday- try to work on that horrendous exchange rate would you please? I know anyone from there on holiday over here does much better don't they?

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[–] annathedub 18 years ago

You assume correctly, once a Dub, always a Dub. My accent has not softened at all, I still sound like I just got off the plane.

Life On Mars is about a detective in 2006 who gets knocked down by a car, and wakes up in 1973. It ran for 2 series of 8 one hour episodes for each. The whole premise of the show was: had he time travelled, was he mad, or was he in a coma? It was an excellent series, with very good characterisation, only let down, in my opinion, by the denouement. Although other viewers have deemed it an excellent way to finish the show.

The exchange rate is pretty awful for you at the moment. The cousin that I stayed with in California is coming over to me this year (we have decided to do alternate years all being well). I am sure that the exchange rate will horrify her. Good time for me, however, to buy dvd boxsets from the US, so not all bad then.

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[–] turtletommy 18 years ago

I should have guessed by your screen name, a little slow on the draw I am...

Thanks for the Life on Mars info, maybe it is or will be shown over here and I'll check it out.

Funny I just read in today's paper that the dollar has declined against most of the major currencies, so any immediate U.K., Ireland or Canadian travel plans are on hold for me. (<:

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[–] Herreken 18 years ago

I wish they would remake this on HBO or Showtime! They should have subtitles for Japanese language too. They could just cast a bunch of no-name actors as long as they're good actors. This is big enough to get people's attention so they don't need famous actors.

DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

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[–] wisteron 18 years ago

See now, Dubliner's I had an easy time understanding...It's the pikey speaking fella's from Donegal that I had a heck of a time understanding. Especially 2 hours into a night at the pub.

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[–] nutsberryfarm 12 years ago

because you must think it is great. it is the law.

Season's Greetings

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] jerrythecow 18 years ago

Just because Blackthorn didn't cry doesn't mean he wasn't sad. By that time, he was very Japanese, and even now in Japanese culture, they try to show very little emotion.

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[–] Antonio-Montana1 17 years ago

Because its great. Go on and watch ur Jerry Bruckheimer Productions and Scary Movie Flicks.

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[–] malacai 18 years ago

Shogun is great.

Finish.

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[–] supafly707 18 years ago

I read the book in four days because I couldn't put it down. I thought it was great. Now the miniseries presents a somewhat different POV, since the book is told from everyone's perspective, and the series depicts only Blackthorne. The problem with this is that we miss about half of the story.

Blackthorne was sad about Mariko's death, but in Japanese culture (if you read the book you will understand better) at this time at least death was considered a rite of passage of sorts, something that was a natural part of life. In Western culture, death is an end and something to be feared. Not that Japanese walked around hoping to die, but it is looked upon completely differently, and by that part in the story, Blackthorne had already evolved into samurai, where his character is a wholly different person. He mourned her loss as a samurai would have. Remember, she was samurai also.

I sounds like people who are having problems with this are simply lost in translation, no pun intended. I suggest reading the book before watching the series, because you really understand all of the subtleties that much better.

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[–] nickm2 18 years ago

Guys:

I THOUGHT it was great when I first saw it--BEFORE narration & subtitles; In a way it forced the watcher to "learn" Japanese & sort of 'gain an insight' into the culture, if only in a shallow way...When I saw it years later with my wife she was also riveted by it but made another observation: The Japanese in the film seemed to have only TWO solutions to their problems: Kill the other guy or kill themselves!

NM

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[–] mx44 17 years ago

Read the book if you want to understand how deep was the mind of those Japanese!I'm 26,I was 14 when I read the book for the first time.Since than I read it once a year.But the TV show is really bad.And you should read also "The Idiot" by Dostoievsky,or at least The Karamazov Brothers!Kill the other guy or kill themselves! no way in the book!There are so many solutions!

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