I was watching this YouTube video about Aliens, where they mentioned when Ripley is testifying to the inquest on the destruction of the Nostromo that the crew photos are sequencing in the background, and that when Lambert's bio shows up her records shows that she was born a man was transitioned to a woman.
I'm not sure why Cameron decided to put that into Aliens. My best guess is that he thought that having the technology to completely alter sex was a nice addition to the futuristic setting.
Frankly, I can't see it. It's a little piece of lore that I am aware of, but I can't think of Lambert as anything but just female. I believe the actress also felt like this addition was dumb. Maybe it's because it didn't come from Ridley Scott or any of the original Alien crew (to my knowledge) that makes me discount this oddity.
As to it being woke, only retroactively. Woke wasn't a state of being then, and I don't think this addition was done in the vein of the modern activist progressive movement. If it was, the whole movie would have been about it, or would have made a point to mention it. And, indeed, probably would have picked a character who didn't spend half of Alien whimpering and breaking down. I mean, who can blame her? But still, they'd have gone with Dallas or even Ripley.
Your comments are boring because you just make some unqualified proclamation.
Give us some insight into your opinion, why do you think that. Otherwise you sound like a pontificating ponce.
What do you mean my opinion? It's not my opinion that the existence of people who happened to be a different gender at birth doesn't need forelock tugging justifcation.
What's "wokey"?. You sound like an obnoxious nincompoop posting things like that.
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Jesus Christ. Can any of you argue without bringing Trump into it? Holy shit, the guy's got so much real estate in so many peoples' heads it's absurd. If people stopped talking about him every two minutes, he'd fucking go away already.
I get that you Trump supporters can't reply fast enough to the growing deluge of hate and reality creeping into your Donald fantasies. If you really believe in free speech, which you don't, you believe in it for both sides.
Well, Trump has had his decades of free lies, and now is being called to task for it, and wasting 4 years of American life and always being out from with this BS rallies.
If Trump was not in everyone's face with the 35,000+ lies every day maybe you'd get your wish.
Aside from stinking like dirty diapers, getting attention is Trump's super-power. He is micro-managing everything that happens in the De-Public-an insurgent military right now. That shouldn't be happening. The MFr should be in prison for what he did.
Don't want to hear people talking about Trump ... put him in prison.
You are a FASCINATING person. The things we disagree about are (often) diametrically opposed with the things we agree about. It's almost as though you only think clearly when you Want to 😎
It needs to be justified because it's part of a story he's telling. Dallas has a beard because it contributes to how viewers perceive the character. Ridley Scott needed a confident, powerful leadership figure for the captain, both to quickly show viewers this guy's status on the boat, and later (SPOILERS - in case anybody needs that warning for Alien...) to give us a jarring shock when the "stern, confident hero-type person" gets snuffed out by the monster. We feel adrift without the captain, and the fact that a movie shows us this strong-jawed, beard-having hero and then just kills him - that's useful for storytelling. "Brett wears that shirt," because the crew of the Nostromo are blue-collar workers. Scott wants us to see "space truckers," so he's got a ballcap on and a Hawaiian shirt shows us the kind of sardonic, Budweiser-drinkin' Joe who thinks it's fun to wear Hawaiian shirts. I actually get a lot of information out of costumes that characters are put in, and that's why movies have costumers.
Decisions made on sets aren't random. Any information is worldbuilding. It's possible wanted to alter Lambert's sex because he was making a feminist statement. Lambert was (my opinion) the most fragile of the crew members, and maybe Cameron wanted to create a world in Aliens where females were tougher so he could make the final confrontation between Ripley and the Alien Queen one of female dominance. Mothers and their ferocity come up as a theme in Aliens, so maybe that's what Cameron was doing. It could be that he was showcasing tech (my theory). I don't know. Those are just guesses.
James Cameron is particularly known for being ultra-focused, extremely hardworking, and detail-oriented. This guy didn't just randomly ask to make a major change to Lambert out of nowhere. Unless the change didn't come from Cameron. The only other explanation is either Dan O'Bannon put that detail into his script (unlikely, since I understand that the characters weren't pre-conceived as sexed until casting), or it was put into the novelization or something like that.
At the end of the day, when a detail-oriented perfectionist makes a major alteration to a character created by somebody else, it should be significant. Any story details are important, especially when altering somebody else's work.
Finally: to state that altering a character's sex is insignificant is to state that sex has no bearing on characters at all, which isn't the case. If it were, you could ask, "Why is it important that the Alien Queen be a mother, not a father?" It's because you lose thematic material on motherhood. "Why couldn't they make Mean Girls about men?" They could, but it would be almost unrecognizably different because the female high school experience is a very different thing.
> Dallas has a beard because it contributes to how viewers perceive the character.
Dallas had a beard because he has a babyface that no one would believe is captain.
> maybe Cameron wanted to create a world in Aliens where females were tougher so he could make the final confrontation between Ripley and the Alien Queen one of female dominance.
That's pretty woke right there as I read what the wokeys define as woke right.
I'm just spitballing with those possibilities. My broader point is that, under optimal conditions, decisions are made to present the world in a movie (or book, or any other kind of story) in a particular way and that very few are completely arbitrary or made on a whim.
Your comment re-iterates my point: if Dallas minus a beard would make the audience doubt his captaincy, then the beard was not a random decision.
And, yes, if Alien were made today I believe it would be called "woke" by a lot of people who overuse the term.
They didn't cast him randomly, though. Details in movies are thought-through by production teams. Set dressing, props, costumes, hair (including facial hair) - all of it. I'm not saying every little thing on every movie is all meticulously planned by masterminds, but they are deliberate decisions.
So was Yaphet Kotto cast to show that Parker had the same status or function as Dallas? Is that the story they're telling?
By the way. I don't know what you think a strong jaw looks like. And beards usually do the opposite of highlighting a strong jaw. But beard or no beard, Tom Skerritt does not have a strong looking jaw.
If you want justification, how about this? Aliens is set in the future when generally speaking it's neither here nor there what gender people are/were. And Cameron wants to convey that it's set in the future, i.e. not the present. If you're sitting here in the present, scratching your chin contemplating possible propagandist or gratuitous motivation for it, then he's clearly done his job.
Woke wasn't a state of being then, and I don't think this addition was done in the vein of the modern activist progressive movement.
That kind of sums up the whole modern debate
some people seem to be outraged if they think its activism , and claim to be ok if it isnt.
which often comes across as "that role didnt need to be a black man , therefore why is it"
The fact that people are outraged at perceived activism shows that discrimination is still there and activism is required
self perpetuating problem
For sure. There's an assumption that what came before was all conceived of "naturally", innocently and without thought. Anything appearing out of the mainstream and everyday is considered unnatural and is conceived of and promoted only by a will and desire to give undue prominence to certain things.
Although I wonder sometimes how much retrospective pearl clutching about supposed gender/identity politics being imposed on us is a reflection of how some viewers process, accept and appreciate movie characters based mainly on sexual availability/suitability. And they are anxious and insecure about the implications of, for example, Lambert having not been a woman since birth.
Some of that insecurity is probably there for people, but I think some of it is just that humans don't like change.
With Alien, I think people watched a movie and absorbed it, and then later when somebody tells us, "Oh, this thing was very different," it's a bit jarring.
I think a lot of the anger towards modern continuations of franchises, for instance, has to do with this. People don't like watching Star Wars and then having the next films tell them, "Oh, the heroes from those movies? They didn't actually win; they lost." That feels like a betrayal. And we can talk about whether or not that development is good storytelling or not, but I think people get upset when you take something they love and then warp it.
Now, don't think that's a 1:1 with the Lambert thing, because I've rarely encountered anybody who's angry, upset, or feels "betrayed" by Aliens. I can only speak for myself, but it just doesn't "stick" in my head. That's the best way of putting it. It's kinda like the same way my brain doesn't bother thinking about the mythology developments in Prometheus whenever I rewatch Alien.
It's not a think about change. I believe this is very deep almost religious about gender. It goes to a male dominant interpretation of the Bible and religion in general. All religions have some kind of gender division. I don't think it is an accident that 1/3 of the world is massively male dominated through the Isalmic religion. And where is that religion spreading in the West, in low income areas where minority males the most stigmatized. But are they stigmatized due to their religion or has their actions and failure to Americanize stigmatized them?
The female liberation, equal rights is not a majority accepted idea in the world, and just like with democracy there are gender Trumpies who want to turn back the political clock to the Civil War, there are Trumpies who want to turn back the gender clock to caveman days.
I am sure I must have missed some logical leaps in your comment.
Well, fair enough about the logical leaps. In this particular post, I wasn't really talking about feminism or religion, so I think I missed some logical leaps from the conversation I was having to your response.
I don't like being given propaganda when I was told I was getting entertainment. I know that it can be a fine line sometimes, but when I get the sense that I'm watching a commercial, I start rolling my eyes. If the whole movie feels like a PSA, then I don't like it.
But none of that impedes my ability to enjoy material with progressive ideas in it. I have enjoyed both Arcane and Blue Eyed Samurai, for instance. I don't know if you've seen those shows, but they're both really great (I would recommend them) and both are filled with the kinds of things that get accusations of "woke" leveled at them. However, neither of them - my opinion - feel like they are preaching at me, so I like the shows.
It's the difference between Martin Scorcese's film Silence and the Pureflix film God's Not Dead. Both are films about Christianity, but one is a breathtaking exploration of faith and doubt and the other is a condescending lecture without nuance or subtlety. You can love or hate Christianity and still recognise that one is a great movie and one is horrible.
In summary: there is a difference between progressive ideas and "Woke" - for me, anyway - and part of that in film is about how nuanced the film is.
I can help you with that: The fact that people have appropriated the term "Woke" for a bunch of boogyman dog whistle issues has NOTHING to do with what the term actually means, or why the movement is important.
Short version: it simply means being aware. Aware that (serious) social inequities exist, and are systemic. That is all.
Example: You can be "aware" that there are inequities aimed squarely at Trans people, and NOT want them in whatever gender sports they decide. Or Bathrooms.
I don't see it as that simple, and a lot of that is because the definition doesn't fit the actions taken.
So, while people claim - rightly - that the technical definition is just awareness, that isn't how activists play it out. They are not that relaxed about it. They aren't that accepting or reasonable. As a result, the word's reality has warped to where it brings a bunch of angry baggage with it.
I see a similarity between the rhetoric of a lot of conservative politicians and their actions. Conservatives say they want small government, but often want to do things like lock people in jail for marijuana. So, when people make the argument that such-and-such a right-wing or centre-right party is interested in cutting bureaucracy and getting laws away from individual citizens, most people would be right not to believe them.
That's where I am with "woke". I know it started as a slang version of "awake" and referred to being aware of social problems that are often invisible, but that's not in practical application how I have observed it.
And, I also agree with you that the term is used to umbrella a lot of things that don't belong; there are people who just seem to use it as, "something that annoys me," or "things I don't like."
You're conflating the way (usually agenda-driven) people define "woke" with what the term actually means. The fact is: the far-right has decided to use the term in a way that has NOTHING to do with the people who actually created it.
Shrug. Because they want to call a sofa an elephant, that doesn't make it so.
You can put "woke" in quotes all you like, my point stands: words have meanings, and this particular word has been twisted by aggrieved knuckleheads beyond all reason. The rest of us who Know what it means and use it correctly do NOT care that idiots complain about misgendered bathrooms being "woke." IT'S NOT. Being AWARE that some people want to use whatever bathroom they like, or compete in any sport they like, or tick diversity boxes in movies, or force any absurdly "inclusive" ideology down your throat. . .and being open to a conversation about it, even if you disagree. . .THAT is Woke.
Okay, but to my knowledge the people who created and propagated the term tended to be middle-far-left people who used the term to indicate that a certain suite of ideas were right and all other ideas were ignorant and wrong. This suite of ideas is often packaged under other terms like "equity".
Just as a sidebar: I don't think all of these ideas are wrong, bad, wrong-headed, or anything like that; nor do I feel that they don't need fighting for necessarily. I have varying opinions on different aspects of that suite of ideas. But, I do think that the activists are not correct with a lot of it. If you need to, we can discuss that further.
And while I will fully acknowledge that anecdotal evidence isn't particularly useful big-picture, I also feel the need to say that almost everyone I have known who describes themselves as woke, or uses the term Woke - and I will exclude yourself from this - are not open to conversation about it if they disagree.
"to my knowledge the people who created and propagated the term tended to be middle-far-left people who used the term to indicate that a certain suite of ideas were right and all other ideas were ignorant and wrong."
Your "knowledge" is (extremely) limited and incorrect.
"almost everyone I have known who describes themselves as woke, or uses the term Woke - and I will exclude yourself from this - are not open to conversation about it if they disagree."
Then you know a bunch of idiots. They are NOT "woke," as that term was coined/intended.
If I go out in the streets with a sandwich board and proclaim (LOUDLY) that every liberal wants to drink the blood of babies, and socialism is evil, and the sinister deep state wants to take my guns away, does that make me conservative? If I insist I'm conservative, does that make it true?
I would say the same thing about your point of view here: I think failing to observe how woke has been altered simply belies a blindspot you have, but does not actually mean much to me, either.
It's not my "point of view," it's a basic fact. And for the umpteenth time, there's no "failure to observe" here. . .simply a misuse/misappropriation of an already well-defined term. No "blindspot" involved. You can refuse to acknowledge these simple truths; that doesn't make them any less True.
Which is? This is a pretty important factor which needs to be illustrated. Otherwise, it's like someone saying "Oh I know that white sharks are said to be apex predators in their habitat and good swimmers, but that's not in practical observation how I observed it."
Then what is it in practical application that you've observed?
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So, the way I've seen it used would be something like stating that it means awareness of the problems in society and then saying that racism isn't hatred of other races, but only applies to racial groups with power, and anybody who disagrees is not woke and, therefore, ignorant and asleep to the real truths of the world.
That would be one example of the kind of things I've seen. I hope you know what I'm talking about now and can extrapolate other places where this kind of attitude and action are used.
I've never observed anyone ever make that statement about what woke means.
So your problem with woke is what some person or persons once stated what they think woke means? And you define "woke" by what you perceive them to be stating what it is. And not what it actually means.
I don't have a problem. My experience is that, whenever I see somebody using the word woke, more than half the time it is used to describe a set of ideas that are different than just being aware of society's problems.
I hear people make your claim - that it originally just meant that - and I understand that claim, but I can't give that claim victory when I don't encounter it that way most of the time.
Yes, but as a Thinking Person you HAVE to be aware that your particular experiences are statistically useless. Saying "well, that's what I've encountered" ignores the fact that there are 7 billion people on the planet, and you HAVE to filter any objective truth through that inescapable lens.
It's not about "giving a claim victory." We live in an age of UNPARALLELED access to information. It's on You to parse it correctly.
But my experiences aren't just with people I know, they're also from news items, op-ed articles, and other sources that put me in touch with global discourse through the really cool aspect of internet communication.
And from that, I see woke employed more often as I am describing it than as per its original intent.
I know you are correct insofar as the original definition meant as you say. However, that definition has, I believe, rapidly shifted into what I'm seeing it used for. Both of these are distinct from the third usage, the kind of catch-all cultural boogeyman that it is sometimes used to denote.
Yes, I am thinking about this, but my conclusion is that the definition does not usually suit the application.
No matter how you try to justify it, YOU are choosing to parse the meaning of an already well-defined term in a very specific, VERY ridiculous, extreme manner. The fact that the attempt to do this very thing to the language of a movement is done with clear intent makes your argument even more absurd.
I can't speak to where you're hearing this Incorrect usage; all I can do is point out to you that it IS incorrect, and (often) Purposely so. Agenda-driven usage is hardly the justification for your interpretation that you think it is.
Again: you can call yourself an elephant, and MILLIONS of people can subsequently take up the banner. That will Never Make It So.
I think you're missing the way language and movements evolve and that the term no longer means what it once did. Call it evolution or corruption. That's what I'm seeing.
Decimate means "remove (or destroy) 1/10" but that term is practically used to mean "almost completely or completely obliterate". Punk meant "prostitute" (I think specifically male, too... I'd have to double-check that) but now it refers to a subculture because a movement changed the meaning.
When activists - and I see misuse/redefinition from Left and Right wing places - so utterly alter the meaning of the word, at some point its practical use becomes, well, decimated.
SUPER simple, although as a word nerd, I'm all about the evolution of language. There's a *reason* there's a usage panel for dictionaries, but that reason has little to do with the scenario you're trying to shoehorn, here.
There's a HUGE difference between the natural progression of words, from conception onward. . .and an intentional distortion of the meaning of a well-defined term, with a clear agenda behind that misuse.
Essentially, (most of) the people who purposely misuse such a well-defined term do so PRECISELY SO PEOPLE LIKE YOU can make the absurd claims you're making.
And FWIW, the linguistic tides you're (mis)indicating take much, Much longer than what's going on here.
That is all.
Well, as a fellow passionate linguist, I am seeing the distortion of the word, as I have described. You don't have to believe me, but if I can't convince you, I don't think it's going to bother me.
It is more complex than you think.
But either way, we seem to be at an impasse. Neither of us are making arguments that convince the other of their empirical validity, so I think we'd better call it pax.
I disagree. Once certain levels of preachiness are achieved, entertainment becomes propaganda. I can think of examples of art with a message that handles it extremely well and never ventures into that PSA territory; I can also think of PSA/propaganda pieces where I agree with the message but still loathe the delivery.
If other people want to watch it, that's fine. I'm only expressing my opinion about the difference between something like art or entertainment and propaganda. You've given your opinion (propaganda is just entertainment that bothers [me]) and I've given mine; I don't believe either of us expressing those opinions makes us think the world revolves around us. Do you?
But, the (propaganda is just entertainment that bothers [me])
thing, I might need to clarify. Maybe I was trying for a meme,
and I did not intend it to be personally directed at you.
I think we all tend to devalue entertainment that doesn't land
right, it's a truism. Art that offends in some way is devalued,
and a good way to devalue written works is to claim they are
propaganda.
I'm only expressing my opinion about the difference between something like art or entertainment and propaganda.
It would help if you would name an example of a piece of entertainment that is not entertaining because it functions as "propaganda". (Never mind the fact that entertainment/art and propagation of an idea are definitely not mutually exclusive concepts).
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Most of the stuff from Pureflix are really good examples.
I think it's similar to the "When is art pornography?" question where it can be hard to define sometimes, but I think we all know that there are movies that have sex or nudity but are not pornographic and others that are. Or, maybe we don't, but I feel that's true.
Lines can be blurred.
Also, movies might take a scene or two in which they become soapboxy before returning to their own world.
Those examples are hardly mainstream. And they are unambiguously propaganda. They're expected to be. Entertainment is just the medium for it.
Like I said. Entertainment and propaganda are not mutually exclusive. The greatest filmmakers in history have made wonderfully entertaining and artistic propaganda. The Life And Death Of Colonel Blimp and A Matter Of Life And Death spring to mind.
In these movies that you speak of. Do people not proclaim what they believe in or what's important in "their own world"?
"preachiness" is a word that gets used over and over without the so called preachiness every being identified and described.
It's like a joker card that people play. "It's not that I'm against these issues, it's preachiness, which I realise isn't seen in this example we're discussing. But trust me, there's lots of preachiness in other films that I don't have time to name or describe right now. Rest assured though that it is widespread enough that I feel justified in invoking it in the context of any conversation where others want to complain about wokeness.
You have a point.
I can't think this was preachiness in the movie. Probably done in the service of just being strange, as was the whole rest of the movie.
What's the solution? Don't have movies acknowledge the existence of other gender statuses and transitions if you don't want to be seen as in the service of "just being strange"?
What does "just being strange" mean here anyway? "Just"? The whole rest of the movie is in the service of "just" being strange? "Just" make it sound like strangeness is gratuitous in the movie.
The movie is set in the future.
It's set mainly around an extraterrestrial mineral refinery - strange
Hauled by a crewed interstellar space tug - strange
Flying through speed at faster than light while the crew is in "hypersleep" - strange
Landing on an alien planet - strange
Alien lifeform infests the spaceship - strange
And so on and son. "Just" kind of misses the mark.
From our early 21st century perspective, along with the ship's cat, beer, cigarettes(though that is becoming a dated aspect) and hawaiian shirts, Lambert's gender history is one of the least "strange" things in this movie. (And it's not even in the movie. It's in the next movie.)
I'm not sure why Cameron decided to put that into Aliens"
His work has always been proto-Woke. Much as I enjoy The Terminator flicks, they're also the sort of anti-tech screeds that have become Holy Writ among Green-loving Progressives these days. And he's always been emphatic in his insistence that Evil Men are destroying the natural world with all this technology, and that the only hope for the future lies in handing the reigns of power over to chicks, no matter how wishy washy their views of nature are
If done well, I don't really mind ideas that are pro-nature or pro-female. Cameron's a good filmmaker, and I have enjoyed his movies. They might get a bit blunt, but they never feel like I'm watching a PSA.
I seem to recall Steven Seagal's On Deadly Ground taking some time out of its runtime to lecture about environmentalism. I haven't watched the ultra-religious movies like God's Not Dead, but I'm pretty sure they qualify.
That movie is thirty years old. A vanity project. And Seagal is hardly what anyone would describe or align with woke.
There's a reason you haven't watched God's Not Dead. Because you know what it's for. You're not being sold pure entertainment and going to be blindsided with an agenda.
Even though I appreciate both of them as filmmakers, I do think that both Ridley's and Cameron's work often have a feminist undercurrent running through it. For Ridley, we see it in Alien with the Ripley character and also in films like Thelma and Louise and The Last Duel. For Cameron, it's most prevalent The Terminator and T2, as well as some of the projects he chooses to produce, like Alita: Battle Angel (even though Alita is ultimately a robot).
I think you're right. I'd have thought Alien and Aliens were more female-oriented than Terminator 2 (I always felt that one was pretty focused on Arnold and the boy), but that's just a personal vibe.
Even in Kingdom of Heaven (at least, the director's cut) there's quite a bit of focus on the female lead. Other films, though - like Gladiator - are mostly male-oriented.
Although, while both of them have had really excellent female leads and supporting plotlines for female characters in their films, I think that, most of the time, they're just trying to tell top-grade stories and let the stories dictate the feminism. I think that's why people love Thelma & Louise and Terminator. It's not that these films are feminist as political commercials, they're feminist as stories, and that makes them feel like they aren't preaching at us. Ultimately, Scott and Cameron are pretty effective storytellers.
You did realize that transgender people existed back when this film was made. It is also a science fiction movie. It's not that much of a stretch for the imagination that there would be transgenders working in space.
Even in the file in Aliens, though, it says Lambert was a "Despin Convert at birth (male to female)," which seems to be saying that she was born male and immediately swapped for female. Unless brain-scan technology in Aliens is capable of predicting a person's gender identity based on baby brain waves (and, I mean, maybe it's supposed to be that), transgenderism (to my knowledge) works differently than that. The crew card almost seems like Lambert's parents wanted a girl and just swapped their boy for one, no biggie.
Mainstream people thought of gender dysphoria very differently at that time, too.
But, whatever attitude changes are, I don't perceive the decision as being made for political correctness reasons. It seems more like a background way to establish sci-fi tech (the ability to completely alter a person's sex) than it does a statement on trans people or made for specific reasons of inclusion.
Yeah, I'd bet there is probably no one who watched that at normal speed noticed that. I didn't anyway. It is an interesting choice. Not woke exactly, which is why I used wokey. Woke for original woke folk has been around a long time.
I guess my bad. Get off my back. I did and I don't need to explain it to you. Maybe you could be clearly in who your comments are directed to as well to add some redundancy and clarity?
However I did not get that, it is your responsibility as the sender to add enough information to decipher your intent.
I wouldn't lie about not seeing it if I did. It's what it seemed like to me, even if I was in error, error correction and management is part of Information Theory, which I know just a small amount about.
With the long posts and the way the threads are denoted it is sometimes hard to figure what someone is replying to.
Alien is famous for the gender of the scripted characters being fluid and interchangeable. The actors were made aware that each of their parts could be played by a man or woman.
In other words you don't care about evidence. despite what you said earlier. You've decided what you want to be the case. But clearly you do need to google it.
The director, producers and writers have all acknowledged it.
It was during casting. They opened up all roles to men, women, and all races. That's how they wound up with a female Ripley: they just let the best-suited performer take the role.
So, it's kinda true, but not because the roles were all gender fluid or sexless, it was because they cast it with whomever they deemed best. Once cast, the roles weren't all polysexed hermaphrodites.
I did notice that about Lambert. It didn't bother me though. I don't know why. It wasn't the reason that I was happy Lambert died. She was annoying and acted too much of a victim.