Could Barry help not falling down? He sounded misplaced among the aristocrats and high society and Lord Ludd was right in describing him as an opportunist. What was his mistake, if any, that led to his downfall?
shareNot blowing Bullingdon's head off when he had the chance. He was literally set for life if he did that.
shareHis inherent need to prove himself and his inability to find satisfaction.
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Ironically, that was possibly the one decent thing he did in the entire film. A show of paternal affection for the boy, after all the humiliation of his his mother, and his father, and the beatings,. But it was too little, far too late. And it was what lost him everything
shareI agree. I think he was lost as soon as he beat the boy up in front of all his friends, causing them to turn away from him. He probably would have obtained a title soon and be set if he hadn't done that. By the time of the duel it was just too late.
shareIf the duel was really about Bullingdon being humiliated, Bullingdon would have challenged Barry immediately after the fight. If it was about humiliation, Bullingdon would have considered the matter closed after Barry fired into the ground. Duels usually weren't about killing. They were about defending one's own honor. Both parties failing to hit their mark was actually the optimal outcome of any duel; both parties could walk away with their heads held high because they faced death to defend their own honor.
Bullingdon came up with the idea of challenging Barry to a duel long after the fact because it was his only chance to kill him legally, without having to go to prison for it. He had realized the only way to save his mother and his family name and fortune was to shoot Barry.
I saw this film years ago in 1988, and felt for the stepson, Lord Bullington, but after getting the DVD for Christmas and watching it for the first time in almost 30 years, I think Lord Bullington was a spoiled and self-entitled jerk, and Momma's boy. I totally sympathized with him at the time being a young adult, but my view has changed.
I'm not going to express myself so eloquently as some of you did into the complexities of the characters, but that he humiliated his stepfather and mother in the company of others, airing his grievances in such a public and petty manner, he deserved that beating and more. Why others didn't see that, and that Barry Lyndon was the villain is a mystery to me since most the the aristocracy at that time weren't saints, either. Would they have like a spoiled child making such a public furor? It didn't make sense to me.
Then challenging his stepfather to a duel when he was grieving the loss of his son, and punishing himself with guilt made me even more angry. Lyndon was so broken and wanted no more quarrel he fired his gun into the ground, but his stepson took another shot and guffawed with glee.
When I first saw the film years ago, I thought Lord Billington was angry about his half-brother's death, but no, he was just a pompous jerk hellbent on revenge at the worst time of his stepfather's life.
I don't think I will read the novel as it seems too depressing.
I wouldn't say that Bullingdon was a hero, or even a worthwhile person. But that doesn't make Barry one.
shareBarry never really fit in anywhere he went. He was too inhibited to ravish his cousin, though she was clearly giving him the green light ( he was as confused by the " Irish Way" as Captain Quin was). He also couldn't make it as a fugitive, as he was robbed right away. He was most at home in the army, winning his comrades' respect by beating his fellow soldier in a fight. He was able to get out of the army by assuming an officer's identity, which led to him spying on the Chevalier ( and disguising himself as the Chevalier at one point, another assumed identity). Him and the Chevalier go into business together conning people in card games ( in a way, another disguise).
Barry tried to continue this strategy of assuming others identities by trying to position himself as an aristocrat ( though he never had a title). Barry's downfall came from the fact that he could never fully assume this identity, he couldn't shake who he really was. The old solider in him came out when he publicly beat his stepson ( notice how that scene and the boxing scene are filmed in similar manners). In the end, he was condemned to being just another footnote in history. But, in a way, everyone is.
Could Barry help not falling down? He sounded misplaced among the aristocrats and high society
Re: Barry's downfall. Imo we hear the narrator over the course of the film make observations which are not entirely reliable. What then to make of the assertion that in effect Barry was the sort who could accumulate a fortune, but not maintain one. But I think ultimately the problem for him as a practical matter was Bullingdon.
In the novel Barry's troubles are with a variety of the members of Lady Lyndon's family. These are compressed in the film into Bullingdon and his role in the narrative.
A major problem for Barry was obviously his attempt to gain a title. While this was a matter of intention on his part, it was of a defensive sort, desired to protect his son, Brian. And it was in fact likely that Bullingdon would not be wholly generous to his half brother when he got the chance.
I think the film suggests that Barry was having some financial issues prior to the attempt to obtain a title. But they were likely manageable, and it was really the title effort that was so problematic for him and for hte Lyndon estate. What made that even worse was that the effort failed, and then it was that the creditors swooped down on him, and that was primarily of Bullingdon's doing as well.
Add in that not only did Bullingdon cripple Barry in a cowardly fashion, he engineered the separation of Barry from Lady Lyndon in a way that served Bullingdon's own interests, but not really of Lady Lyndon's.
So it would seem that the simple answer to the OP's question was Bullingdon.
Surely, it is obvious that lack of love for his wife and stepson, and especially his disrespect for her, were the seeds of his downfall. This is what caused Bulingdon's hate and also necessitated the acquiring of a title to mitigate any negative consequence.
Or, one could say he was a rogue and that the reason. High society had already accepted him, so that was not the problem.
ah, the old Defense of Bullingdon perspective. Both the film and novel make clear that Bullingdon did not like Barry from the very beginning, before Barry cheated on Lady Lyndon. The novel also made clear that Lady Lyndon's family in general never approved of Barry, disliking his lower class and Irish lineage.
You have the causes and effects wrong.
This has no bearing on my argument. The question was what led to his downfall. It is completely to be expected that the son will not initially like the step father, especially a son attached to the mother. In the film, Barry did not give Bullingdon any reason to like him, quite the opposite. He danced in, seduced Bullingdon's mother and immediately started lording it over the boy. Later, he disrespected the mother, was brutal to the son and was squandering the son's inheritance created by the family lineage.
Why should Bullingdon "like" him?
First of all by the time Bullingdon had really sought to take Barry down, there had been a raproachement between Barry and Lady Lyndon. This was clear not only from the encounter during Lady Lyndon's bath but from the more telling way in which Lady Lyndon did not oppose Barry's effort to obtain a title, and in effect supported it by agreeing to the expenditures involved. Yet in self serving fashion Bullingdon created the spectacle during the musical performance, which was supplemented by the spreading of rumors about alleged mistreatment of him by Barry. This effectively ended Barry's efforts, and it was no coincidence that this protected Bullingdon from any claims by his half brother.
Earlier on it is true that Bullingdon witnessed the wooing of his mother by Barry, but also with the advice from the narrator that Bullingdon was uncommonly attached to his mother. Then, shortly after the marriage, we have this conversation between Reverand Runt and Bullingdon:
Reverand Runt: My Lord Bullingdon, you seem particularly glum today? You should be happy that your mother has remarried.
Bullingdon: Not in this way. And not in such haste.
(pause)
And certainly not to this man.
Runt: I think you judge your mother too harshly.
(pause)
Do you not like your new father?
Bullingdon: Not very much. He seems to me little more than a common opportunist.
(pause)
I don't think he loves my mother at all.
And it hurts me to see her make such a fool of herself.
This was before there was ANY indication of infidelity between Barry and Lady Lyndon.
While in the sequence of events Barry dallying with Brian's nursemaid follows, this is after Brian's birth and the passage of time. No doubt Bullingdon was struck on seeing that dalliance. But he was not present when Barry then made up to Lady Lyndon, and then of course was the occasion when Bullingdon would not kiss Barry goodbye in front of several people, much to Lady Lyndon's displeasure. Bullingdon accused her of insulting the memory of his father, Lord Lyndon, again much to Lady Lyndon's displeasure.
At that point, Barry punished Bullingdon for I believe the first time, advising him that as others "serve" him, so he will treat them. Then the narrator advises:
Barry believed, and not without some reason, that it had been...a declaration of war against him by Bullingdon from the start...and that the evil consequences that ensued... were entirely of Bullingdon's creating.
Now of course the word some indicates a lessening of the charge, but I think it clear in the context of the manner of Thackeray's writing, this was merely included out of ironic understatement. By that point Bullingdon had been described as fixated on his mother, had felt he knew better than her when it was appropriate to remarry (after a year since Lord Lyndon'd death), cast aspersions on Barry's background, and then insulted him in front of others. And this was all before the business of pursuing a title began.
And then of course the specific and particular effect of Bullingdon shooting Barry's leg off and the practical effect that had cannot be underestimated, coming as it did out of an act of self serving cowardice in his part, not accepting that Barry could have easily and justifiably killed him, but chose not to do so.
And all of this in self serving terms. It would have been another thing if Bullingdon was acting in concert with his mother, pursuant to her wishes. but he was not.
I frankly never understand what kind of aberrant view of human nature would lead someone to take Bullingdon's side in all this. For myself I had merely noted the cause and effect of Bullingdon's presence in Barry's life and its relation to his downfall. I have not defended Barry, and certainly do not think he was without fault, not by a long shot.
But continue defending Bullingdon if you must.
I frankly never understand what kind of aberrant view of human nature would lead someone to take Bullingdon's side in all this.
Bullingdon: Not very much. He seems to me little more than a common opportunist.
(pause)
I don't think he loves my mother at all.
And it hurts me to see her make such a fool of herself.
No one is NOTHING MORE than a common opportunist. The class based animus there reeks. Elsewhere Bullingdon refers to Barry's Irishness in virtually racist terms. You must have missed that part.
I also do not think it clear Barry has no love for Lady Lyndon.
Finally if you do not see that Bullingdon has an unnatural attachment to his mother, well...
No doubt Bullingdon saw things in Barry he did not like, and there were certainly things in Barry to not like. But he was primarily motivated by self interest and gave expression to class based and ethnically unacceptable bases for hating Barry. Also unforgiveable was the way he reached the conclusion about the best way to deal with Barry without consulting with his mother at every step of the way.
His is a perfect example of an expressed chivalry hiding a condescension and pursuit of his own self interest.
Did you not feel it was a problem that Bullingdon proceeded with the duel after Barry shot into the ground? What kind of person would do such a thing?
Did you not feel it was a problem that Bullingdon proceeded with the duel after Barry shot into the ground? What kind of person would do such a thing?
I didn't say Barry had a GREAT love for Lady Lyndon. You said he had none. I win.
Standards of the times do not excuse the toxicity of his views. Was it in your view okay for titled people in the 18th Century to look at the lower classes as subhuman, or to have a prejudice against people from other European countries?
In any event my point is that Bullingdon was the major source of Barry's downfall, and that much (never said all) of Bullingdon's animus was there all along. To be specific Barry may have exacerbated Bullingdon's hatred, but there was more than enough hatred there all along.
The self interest angle also cannot be disputed. As Lord Lyndon's son Bullingdon's interests were adverse to not only Barry's, whose financial involvement in the Lyndon wealth was tied to no more than Lady Lyndon's life estate, but also even of Bullingdon's half brother Brian, since Brian had none of Lord Lyndon's blood and in fact was in any event Bullingdon's junior. In that sense Bullingdon's position was even adverse to Lady Lyndon's as respects her own interest in her second son.
But of course Bullingdon did not concede he acted out of self interest, which was part of his hypocrisy.
I think I have laid out my points here, and you seem to prefer offering red herrings in response. That being the case, have a nice day.
But of course Bullingdon did not concede he acted out of self interest, which was part of his hypocrisy.
Standards of the times do not excuse the toxicity of his views. Was it in your view okay for titled people in the 18th Century to look at the lower classes as subhuman, or to have a prejudice against people from other European countries?
This is why I will not pursue the discussion with trisul. I have not fallen in love with the Barry character.
shareHaving said that, I was not at all "defending" Bullingdon, I was giving my opinion as to where it all went downhill for Barry, or if you prefer, I am critical of Barry. Although it must be said that the movie presents both sides of both of them, the good and the bad.
He stood up like a man and took care of his family's estate, balance their finances, and care for his grieving mother because Barry was poisonous to her.
Surely, it is obvious that lack of love for his wife and stepson, and especially his disrespect for her, were the seeds of his downfall.
This was interpreted by some as a "defense of Bullingdon and unfair to Barry. I don't think so. I think the movie tries not to paint either character black or white entirely, giving some good and bad aspects of each in order to allow us to think about the situation and the issues and not just fall for one character or the other.
LOL I know...this poster is ludicrous. The story is certainly black and white, but Barry was never a good man to his wife and step son.
As the film goes along we see Redmund grow from a young, insecure, naive country boy into a reckless manipulator.
I suppose in a weird way it's a cautionary tale about seeing too much of the world.
Barry Lyndon is certainly not at all about Bullingdon being an admirable character. Any such interpretation completely misunderstands the film. Thackeray was not a defender of the aristocracy. He was a satirist. But beyond that the novel is in the first person, containing nothing of the false narration included in the film (that the narration is both cynical and wrong I will assume here is beyond question. For example think early on about the narrator's assertion that Barry was "filled with admiration" on viewing Quin and his troops, when the facial expressions Ryan O'Neal gave Barry show nothing of the sort.)
But among many other changes to the novel Kubrick introduces this false narrator. Why? I think we are intended to hear the narrator as giving expression to the negative view of Barry as the outsider. It also serves the purpose of making the point Kubrick himself said was what his film, thematically, was about - the inadequacy of language, specifically in comparing that which the film shows (how film is different from, say, a book) from what is said.
In viewing the film the narrator's statements thus are, particularly when moral judgments are included to Barry's disadvantage, to be essentially countered in understanding what Kubrick is really trying to say. This is not only generally true, but as regards Bullingdon, it is his self serving purpose in returning, and in his failure to accept satisfaction when Barry shoots into the ground, his willful attempt to keep Lady Lyndon out of this portion of the events, that we SEE Bullingdon for the awful person he is.
Similarly we see little to support the notion that Barry is motivated to any great extent by greed. His focus certainly after Bryan is born is on his son and then to protect his son at great cost to the estate's fortunes, rather than on business ventures that would add to, and not detract from, his wealth.
Barry is primarily motivated to seek intimacy, often seeking a father figure. Over the course of his narrative he seeks to apply his will to attain that general goal, but is continuously thwarted by forces outside his power. Take the example of his encounter with Lischen, the young Dutch woman. If Barry had not tarried with her, he likely would have gotten away, back to England or Ireland. But he sought her intimacy, and this led to how his stories for Captain Potzdorff ended up being so out of date. Or how he briefly thought he had a father figure protector in Captain Grogan, only to have him cut down by a Frenchman's musket.
In other words Barry believes his life would be a story he would write, but it ended up being written about him.
Beautiful, Kenny.
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I'd consider that obvious. You can draw a direct corollary between him cheating on Lady Lyndon and his leg getting blown off in a duel with her son.
There is other stuff in there about high society etiquette that Barry would never have been able to meet up to, and upper class snobbery. But that's all just dressing, and mostly outside the chain.
unability to play the high society game because he never learned it and it's too subtle.
shareHis ambition outweighed his talent.
There's a scene in the film where we see Lady Lyndon signing letters of note to the various creditors that Barry has incredulously accumulated over the years together and the narrator says something to the effect that Barry had the ability to rise in the world of high society but lacked the instinct to maintain and excel his presence in such an environment. His hazardous spending of other people's money exemplified that.
He didn't fall down he always had a fatal flaw that never got resolved. His aristocratic titles and money didn't make the flaw go away. You could debate what caused this flaw in him (him lacking a father could be it) but it made him cheat, lie, desert his men, treat his wife and stepson with contempt, squander his family's wealth, etc. In the end it all just came back to him.
shareThe point of the film is that he was of humble origins and no money could buy the respect of the aristocrats, who would continue to see and consider him a poor, rude and unmannered social climber.
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...And no dream is ever... just a dream...
I don't think so but if that is your view then I'm not going to argue with it - we all interpret the stories through our own perspectives.
shareThanks for being so kind.
What's your point of view, then?
I'm Winston Wolf. I solve problems.
...And no dream is ever... just a dream...
I think the movie showed tragic flaws in both in the protagonist and the individuals part of the aristocracy - it's not about one being better than the other. There was no real redemptive moment for any of the characters, no lessons learned, no change. Barry was just a catalyst for the downfall of the aristocratic family - the seeds were there before he arrived. They can blame each other but it's really just long due debts being paid. Call it karma or sin (to miss the mark), trying to cheat your way to wealth or love - wife deluding herself, Barry lying, betraying and cheating to acquire money and higher position, etc. So I don't think the movie is picking sides in the "squabble", it just shows it in all its ugliness.
shareMy theory would be the expenses of his lavish lifestyle in combination with lord Bullingdon's grudges and actions. I think Redmond had the extravagant lifestyle and attitude to fit in with high class society of the time. Bullingdon pretty much has the same motivations as young Redmond did, only Bullindon had the ability to do more damage- and I believe he'd be bound to follow the same arc as Redmond.
share[deleted]
A lot of you aren't going to like the answer but Barry's downfall was due to the fact that he didn't have a father growing up and was raised/influenced by a committee of idiots.😵
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