DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 96 MINUTE AND 86 MINUTE VERSION - Phase IV (1974) Discussion

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] marsodyssey2010 19 years ago

People who type in all caps tend to be the same people who right letters to celebraties where the writting gets to the end of the page and then curls round until they are writting along the side of the page too.

English Language Anime: Dub it, don't pervert it.

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[–] mcintyro 19 years ago

'right letters' or 'write letters?" Who's the Dumbass, Dumbass?

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[–] marsodyssey2010 19 years ago

Of course, you would sound a whole lot more righteous were I an American.

I can speak English, can you speak anything but English?

English Language Anime: Dub it, don't pervert it.

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[–] mcintyro 19 years ago

Judging from your intelligence, the people of your country are still writing with sticks and sand.

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[–] marsodyssey2010 19 years ago

Using a stick and some sand, I can write in several languages, using a computer, you can still only write in one.

What does that say about my intelligence, or yours?

English Language Anime: Dub it, don't pervert it.

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[–] jbaker1-2 18 years ago

The fact that you're bickering about such a trivial thing doesn't speak well for either of you.

For what it's worth, many Americans *are* multilingual, but it isn't much a necessity for us as it is for Europeans, since, with the exception of those who live along the borders, we can't drive 20 miles and be in a foreign country. ;-)

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[–] marsodyssey2010 18 years ago

Forget 20 miles, if you were a Newyorker you wouldn't be able to go 20 blocks without thinking that you're in a different country. There are huge Chinese, Cuban, Italian, Eastern European and who knows what else populations in most large American cities these days.

You try advertising for a nanny in English in California, you get three replies from teenager looking to move up from babysitting, advertize in Spanish and you get three hundred pros who will do the job well without complaining and won't run up your phone bill while they do it.

English Language Anime: Dub it, don't pervert it.

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[–] tween_us 17 years ago

Back to the original issue...

From Future Tense: The Cinema of Science Fiction by John Brosnan:
"Bass originally filmed a spectacular, surreal montage lasting four minutes, showing what life would be like on the 'new' Earth, but this was cut by the distributor."

And from a review on DVDTalk.com:
"The trailer to Phase IV can be found on Synapse Films' 42nd Street Forever Volume 3: Exploitation Explosion and it does indeed contain some snippets of the more tripped-out climax that unfortunately didn't make it into the release version. Additional glimpses include a man and a woman merging into one new, faceless being, and some additional psychedelic photography and effects."

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[–] atleswoolf 18 years ago

To answer the actual question: This is from The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, edited by John Clute and Peter Nicholls, in the entry on Phase IV. "Originally there was also in the finale a 2001-like montage of surrealistic images showing a fantastic evolutionary upheaval, but this was cut by the studio after the initial release."

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] bahax 18 years ago

I would love to see this movie. Has it even had enough releases to have different versions?
Anyway, it can be found used on VHS from Amazon.

(P.S. Writing in all-caps was yelling, or screaming, waaayyyyy before the internet was born, in these things called books and magazines.
IT STILL IS YELLING!
See? I just yelled.)

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[–] phasmatrope 12 years ago

Regardless of the bickering: I too am very curious to see the original ending. It's glimpsed in the trailer, however the bare-bones DVD release doesn't have it. While I enjoyed the film, I'm very curious to see what the original ending had to offer. The Silent Movie Theater in L.A. actually screened a print with the original ending for a couple days over summer 2012, but I didn't discover the film until afterwards, didn't know that there was this issue with the lost ending, and thus missed it.

Hopefully they include it if they ever do a Bluray release!!

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[–] gortx 12 years ago

Here is what appears to be he full version of the ending:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beLpsWaUDNk

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[–] imagestic-1 10 years ago

Thanks for this :)

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[–] phasmatrope 12 years ago

Hate to repost this, but...

yes, the full original ending was indeed cut when test audiences reacted poorly... Bass apparently recut it, SOME of it DID make it into the trailer, and the original ending was considered "lost" for over 30 years... however, it was recently found and has been making the rounds attached to the end of the theatrical cut in special screenings (in Los Angeles at least) as of summer 2012. However, considering that not too many people know of the film, this same restorer-- whose name escapes me-- brought up the point that it probably wasn't so much lost as much as that unfortunately no one was really looking for it per se.

HOWEVER, if you are indeed curious to see it, the lost ending HAS made it onto YouTube (filmed from the audience, natch...).

There has also been some discussion of a Criterion Collection release-- apparently Paramount and Bass's daughter Jennifer Bass is one of the only people who own the rights-- so you might want to try bugging Criterion to release it, as I have been doing: suggestions @ criterion . com

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[–] bahax 18 years ago

Quote: " ... AND BESiDES, SAUL BASS LOVED WRiTiNG IN ALL CAPS ... "

Is that true?

Saul Bass, in his correspondence with other people via the written word, used all-caps ... ?

Sounds fishy.

It may be that he preferred all-caps in his grAphIc dEsIgn, but that's another matter.

(P.S. I recently downloaded and watched this movie—it's pretty good!)

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] bahax 18 years ago

Say, Tommy (... why am I being civil ...?), I wasn't pointing out any semantical error, just wEAk LoGiC.

Pointing out that Saul Bass uses all-caps iN HiS aRTWoRK, as a defense of using all-caps In WRiTTeN coRReSPoNDeNCe, is, well ... inept. (But, hey!, I didn't have to look that hard for it, you wrote that part out in big ol' stylish caps!)

And be careful who you call ugly and short—the original poster whom you so valiantly defend may be ugly and short, and fat and bald. You never know.

Finally, yes, debating socially retarded douchebags online makes me feel superior. What a gas! Throw in one of 'em with a personal writing "style" and I, why ... I just get giddy!

P.S. Thanks to atleswoolf for actually answering the question in the first post. I can't imagine we'll ever see that footage. I kinda like how it ends the way it is, though.

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[–] Mort_I_found_a_spoon 16 years ago

I knew there was something wrong! I just got the 84 minute version DVD, and everything was way cool until I got to the end, all of a sudden it just ended. It's been a long time since I've seen Phase IV, but the one thing I remember is how it went into a psychedelic montage at the end for about 10 minutes - very 70's. I remember it being kind of like the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

In the film there's a part where the younger scientist says, "Hey, you wanna see something?", and he shows a visual representation of the 'ant language' on a small monitor. There's a bunch of blue swirly graphics floating around. I recognized it. THAT'S part of the graphics they start showing in the uncut version at the end, which explains why they showed a preview of it earlier in the film.

So yes, I'm going to look for the longer version, but it sounds like it may not be out there. Part of the cult film status of Phase IV was how it took a left turn at the end and went wayyyyyyyyyyyy chemically enhanced. Removed the extra footage due to preview audience reaction? Weak! They should have stuck to their guns and kept it the way it was. Otherwise it falls into 'regular sci-fi for the time period' status.

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[–] ezracobb366 13 years ago

thank you for contributing to the real topic Mort, no one came to this post to hear nationalism and grammatical arguments.

It is so cool to hear from a person who actually saw this ending! Just knowing that it exist gives me great hope. When I heard people talking about it before I thought of it like the helicopter blade suicide scene at the end of Dawn of the Dead, to good to be true. I see this was posted about half a decade ago, have you made any progress in finding a new cut or remembered anything else about the end?

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[–] booberry 13 years ago

Cinefamily at the Silent Movie Theater in Los Angeles somehow uncovered a practically pristine reel of Bass' final sequence that was cut from the film and screened it last night. It was incredible, to say the least.

The sequence was about 4-5 minutes long and was a visual and aural delight - one cool abstract and surreal image after the next. You see the two characters running way in the distance across pyramids, in mazes, etc. People lying on giant abstract lab tables or sitting in open square buildings as ants tower above (people are the ones being experimented on), a half submerged head of a bald man with a hole in his forehead where ants crawl out, and so much more. I truly believe if the studio had left the film intact, it would now be regarded as one of the best genre films of that era. The sequence really makes that much of a difference. It will be hard to watch the theatrical version again as it will now always seem so woefully incomplete, basically missing the entire “phase IV” sequence!

It has been thought lost for decades, but now we know the footage survives and it was in excellent shape. The original ending elevates the film from just a cool 70’s genre pic into something much more special – a visionary sci-fi classic. I’m elated to have seen the footage (they actually showed it twice to the sold-out crowd last night as the audience went wild after the first time), but am also very sad knowing it may never be seen again. This film really needs to be restored and tis amazing abstract and surreal ending reinstated.

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[–] Captain_Iglo 13 years ago

Lucky you. I'm a huge Saul Bass admirer and I've been wanting to see this for years.

I do hope it will be shown again.

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[–] booberry 13 years ago

I also hope so many others can see it. Since the screening was such a success, the repertory theater that was responsible for finding the footage has scheduled an encore showing of it for next Sunday, July 1st, but of course that's for only anybody in the L.A. area. Hopefully, interest can spread to other parts of the country and the footage can be seen by all eventually. Criterion is probably our only hope of ever seeing a DVD release of the restored print as they do deal with Paramount and are powerful enough to convince the studio that this is a worthy undertaking for all involved. Wishful thinking on my part, but that's all we can do right now....

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[–] NostalgiaDrag 13 years ago

Fawk me! I was in downtown LA that weekend it screened and was planning to see it but went to a crappy show instead. I wish I had known that it contained the original ending!

Well, I'm happy to hear that it sounds like it ends on an appropriately lysergic note. PHASE IV is total acid cinema.

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[–] booberry 13 years ago

That encore screening that I mentioned is happening this coming Sunday will NOT include the lost ending, unfortunately. They are only going to re-screen the theatrical version of the film itself, but NOT the original ending this time. I would have paid again just to see the lost ending another time, but that's not to be (unless they change their mind at the last minute and show it). Maybe Paramount heard about them screening the ending (it received a bunch of press afterwards) and squashed them from showing it again?

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[–] deanowest 13 years ago

I went to the encore presentation. Hadrian, the head programmer, said the Bass family or trust or whatever asked that the ending not be shown again. They needed to sort out some legal issues it sounded like. It also sounded like they may start the ball rolling to put it out on dvd. I guess Cinefamily bought a print and it had the ending intact.

I'm a little bummed that I didn't get to see the ending, but someone brought Cinefamily a better print of the original film. Cool.

Dictated, but not read.

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[–] hulahoop100 13 years ago

One minute fragment of the final ending is posted on YouTube. You might want to look at this right away, as it might be taken down (judging by the issues raised by the previous poster). (The quote if from the original poster).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCJwUQceLcs

Screened June 24th, 2012 in Los Angeles. Unfortunately, I didn't record the first several minutes of this amazing lost ending and also sorry for the bad angle it's shot at and the heads in the way, but hopefully this short 1-minute excerpt from the very final moments of the lost ending will give those who couldn't make it to the screening a small glimpse of what the sequence was (and those first few minutes of this lost sequence that I didn't record were way more surreal/abstract). It would be great to see the complete sequence end up on a DVD or Blu release some day and I've been informed that Legend's license on the film has actually now expired and the film is officially back with Paramount! So please spread the word to Paramount (or better yet, Criterion) that you want this film finally restored to Saul Bass' original vision with his original ending intact. That the cut ending still exists is a MIRACLE, so restoring the ending back into the film is now the easy part.

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[–] hulahoop100 13 years ago

Somehow, someone on a French website has posted what appears to be some of the Bass story boards for the final montage sequence. They are extraordinary. Where did he get these? (You need to scroll half way down the thread to see them).

http://www.devildead.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13034&start=30

Some of them mesh pretty well with the last minute of the sequence surreptitiously recorded at the Cinefamily one time showing (see above post) and posted on Youtube. He states that the total sequence was about 5 minutes long. Apparently, looking at the story boards Bass may have broken the final montage sequence into four parts. The pages of the story boards have four different hand written titles;

Man Controlled
- here we see images of humans that are controlled and experimented on by the ants, (a couple running, other humans in open cells with ants peering down at them, humans running in mazes, humans stored in egglike vehicles, and hauntingly, a figure of a bald eyebrowless man buried in the sand, with only his eyes and forehead emerging above the sand and a ant crawling out of the forehead. (A human body as an ant farm).

Also humans with strange writing on their faces and glasses similar in shape to the symbols on the foreheads of the ants earlier in the film. (Some of these images are also in the last 30 seconds of the theatrical trailer).

Transformation - lots of images of people and body parts with a superimposed sun.

Rebirth
- this seems to be where the Youtube video meshes with the storyboards, Lesko and the girl Kendra are merged with each other, a nude women gives birth to the sun.

Man as One with Nature
- humans becoming like animals (frogs, birds...) and interacting with animals (a women making sign language with a baboon).

In the video, the music makes a screeching halt, and we return to the world of Lesko and Kendra back in the Arizona desert being studied by ants from afar. (This is not in the storyboards.)

Overall it appears that there may be more original stark images and almost as many actual edits in the lost sequence than there are in the rest of the film. I really hope to get to see the whole sequence attached to the film someday.

What do you all make of the montage fragment and the supposed storyboards?

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[–] booberry 13 years ago

Thanks for that link of the storyboards. That proves even moreso that Bass really planned this sequence meticulously. Everything shown in those boards was included in the filmed ending. Maybe moved around just a little, but everything was there.

I was the one who posted the 1-minute excerpt clip of the sequence on you-tube. I actually had recorded the earlier minutes as well, but my stupid camera shut off at 3-4 minutes into it, so I quickly turned the camera back on to record that last part, but by doing so, it erased the earlier segment I just recorded!!! I can't tell you how upset I was when I checked my camera after the screening and I realized I didn't get the whole sequence because of my crappy camera. Arghhh!!!!!!!! The entire sequence was amazing and elevates the film to a whole new level. I'm someone who saw the film as a kid on opening day upon original theatrical release and have always loved it, but if the ending was included, the film would now be regarded as one of the best films in the genre.

I do hope the Bass family and estate can work out something to get this out to all of us, though. This ending really needs to be restored into the film as it is obviously one of Bass' most personal, visionary projects and is absolutely essential to the film - it's the money shot, so to speak. The film was good without it, but once you've seen the lost ending sequence, you can never go back.

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[–] Psylon69 13 years ago

I found this article from Hollywood Reporter regarding the lost ending.
Hopefully there are many fans out there who will get the word out that we NEED this footage restored to a DVD or Bluray release.

I contacted Criterion.
Anyone else have suggestions?

Article below:

www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/saul-bass-phase-iv-original-ending-cinefamily-paramount-341449

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[–] jacethecrowl 12 years ago

Having examined the original film materials, I can say with some confidence it is highly unlikely there was EVER a version over 90 minutes (not sure where this "93 min." runtime comes from, let alone 96). The theatrical release is 84 minutes, the excised ending montage is only 4, and the other small changes in the preview version total less than one minute.

A new digital transfer of the original ending screens in Austin tomorrow, and will eventually become more widely available.

http://drafthouse.com/movies/27021

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[–] hulahoop100 12 years ago

In December 1973 a review of the film (presumably the unreleased version) was published in Variety, and they list the run time as 93 minutes.

The film is later released in September 1974, nine months later, and is reviewed in other national newspapers, such as the New York Times, which I believe then list the run time as 84 minutes.

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[–] jacethecrowl 12 years ago

Thank you for that -- nice to know the source, but I still don't think it is correct. Again, I've inspected original materials that were in Saul Bass' possession, investigating changes made from the preview version to the theatrical, and just I don't see where an additional 3 minutes could come from. Variety may have been supplied with incorrect information, or timed it wrong themselves, as it's an imprecise business: The original NY Times review listed an 83 minute running time, and the LA Times 82. The DVD of the theatrical version runs 83.5, usually rounded up to 84.

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[–] hulahoop100 12 years ago

Variety may have gotten the running time wrong. It sounds like the version you have inspected is about 87 minutes. Five minutes seems too long for them to have timed it wrong themselves.

Is it possible that the film elements you have inspected do not include all the film elements, perhaps edited into a longer version of the film?

For example, did the film elements you study include the "reverse mermaid" supposedly found in the preview version? see below

http://www.britmovie.co.uk/forums/ask-film-question/91938-phase-iv-saul-bass-fish-lady.html

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[–] jacethecrowl 12 years ago

Yes, the "reverse mermaid" is in there, and what a wonderfully apt description. (Thanks for the citation -- now I need to track down that Aurum Film Encyclopedia...)

Right now I'm convinced the original running time was no more than 89 or 90 minutes = 84 (final theatrical cut) + ending montage (4) + a few minor changes in other reels (1-2).

Despite the date of the Variety online capsule review (http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117793982/) I've located the original issue (10/1/1974, No. 18, Vol. 165, p. 2) which DOES list a 93 minute running time, but there is NO WAY they would have viewed anything other than the shorter theatrical version at that date. The montage was cut in February of that year (based on annotations on the original film elements), and the review specifically mentions the final voiceover -- which was only added as a last minute fix for the problem of cutting the montage. Clearly this run time is a typo or just bad math, but unfortunately this rumored length still endures.

Work is ongoing to reinstate something of Bass' original intention. These recent screenings in L.A. and Austin are hopefully just the beginning of the film's renewed life.

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[–] booberry 12 years ago

jacethecrowl - Thanks for your informed posts and knowledge about this film. Very excited to think that the restored version may eventually see a wider limited release and maybe eventually a DVD or Blu. It sounds like you are personally 100% involved in the restoration of this film and I can't express enough gratitude.

Also, I used to think that only the ending montage had been cut, but there is a shot in the trailer of tons of ants (almost like a blur) rushing over a piece of desert that was not in the ending montage, and also not in the theatrical version of the film - so I assume there were a few smaller edits elsewhere in the film as you infer (maybe 1-2 minutes of other trims). I remain continually fascinated by this film as well as the studio's unfortunate interference with it.

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[–] jacethecrowl 12 years ago

booberry, the shot I think you are referring to in the trailer shows up in the theatrical version after Hubbs falls into the ground and gets devoured. I think the effect is supposed to be the ants scaling the wall of the hole, but it looks like they are on a horizontal surface (and was surely shot that way).

I need to revise my previous post with new info. I've since found specific written documentation and film outtakes indicating the preview version probably WAS 93 minutes (however, by the time Variety reviewed it the cuts had been made six months prior, and what they had seen was definitely the short theatrical version). Research continues, but it seems clear that the movie was not taken away from Bass, as he was directly engaged in making the changes. Losing the montage probably hurt the most, but other scene trims seem to have been made just to tighten the movie up a bit, and to arrive at something audiences would respond more favorably to. The recut version tested poorly as well, and was met mostly with critical indifference. The montage has been revived, but I'm not sure about the other less substantive alterations.

That's all for now, back to it...

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[–] booberry 12 years ago

Thanks - you're right about that shot I mentioned - it is in that scene in the film. It does look horizontal in the trailer and that was what threw me off.

Interesting to hear some of your other info on the film as well. So they let Bass make the changes, but I assume the studio still had final approval. I'm just speculating, of course. Keep up the excellent work!

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[–] hulahoop100 12 years ago

Gortx posted a couple of days ago in the middle of this thread that the full original ending is posted on YouTube. He provided a link, but as you know, links do not work in IMDB.

I explored for a while on YouTube, and indeed he is right. The full original ending IS POSTED on YouTube! It is kind of hidden, and you need to search for the exact title, “Phase IV lost ending”. It looks like someone filmed one of the recent academy sponsored showings with a camera phone. It is a bit shaky, edges cut off, colors bleeding out, but it is all there.

Until this I had only seen the second half of the sequence, also caught on a camera phone, and posted on YouTube. The first half is very different, depicting a weird society in which humans are controlled by the ants, experimented on, and displayed. It has some pretty far out stuff. Everything I had hoped for and more. The music works very well and is very different from the music in the rest of the film; and I believe is by Stormu Yamashta, rather than the composer who did the rest of the film.

Thanks to anyone involved in restoring this! I do look forward to seeing this in HD someday, and attached to the full movie.

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[–] hulahoop100 12 years ago

Jacethecrowl:

Do you know if Saul Bass made a very brief cameo in the lost montage sequence? (at 2:27 in the version posted on Youtube). The mustached man looks very similar to photos of him from that era.

Also, does anyone know what exactly is being represented at 2:47?

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[–] jacethecrowl 12 years ago

I'm 99% certain that's Bass -- he wasn't shy about cameos and had one (later cut) in his short film "Notes on the Popular Arts" and provides one of many voices to "The Solar Film." This part of the sequence seems to be about the colonizing of humans, but all I can think about at the 2:47 moment is that guy in grape suit from the Fruit of The Loom commercials.

The theatrical version plus bonus original ending is showing at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) on 3/22 and at the Wisconsin Film Festival on 4/13 (the second one with Michael Murphy in attendance). I'd love to see a full restoration of the original version, but I think it will require the backing of someone who can monetize it, like Paramount and/or Criterion. The epilogue is great, but it would be even better in the context of the first version of the film.

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[–] jacethecrowl 12 years ago

for hulahoop100: From looking at the production files, the moment you were asking about is supposed to represent human "cocoons." The design is based on an "apparel sculpture" by the artist Carl Lander circa 1970. Bass had requested photographs of the piece to model his cocoons from.

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[–] Bonezor 11 years ago

Gortx posted a couple of days ago in the middle of this thread that the full original ending is posted on YouTube. He provided a link, but as you know, links do not work in IMDB.

Why would you think that links don't work here? Did you mean this youtube video by any chance? I've seen it mentioned in this thread before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beLpsWaUDNk

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[–] KutWrite (1334) 3 years ago

That one is now "unavailable," probably due to a copyright strike.

This one is there. It's the one I saw today: https://youtu.be/oHWSAZ3fZsQ

Later, I found this longer ending that includes the "reverse-mermaid," some nudity and other scenes others have described. It appears to add about 5 min to the version I saw:

https://youtu.be/0rMqT4GD944

Though there are some great "Saul Bassy" scenes in the longer one, I personally prefer the one linked at the top. It has more punch.

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