Much better than Chinatown.
Anyone else agree?
shareCertainly funnier and more laidback.
This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.
MovieChat Forums > The Long Goodbye (1973) Discussion > Much better than Chinatown.
Polanski sure took a more conservative and ordinary approach to noir-making with Chinatown than Altman with TLG. To a certain extent, I suppose I´ve never fully understood Chinatown´s status as this, I dunno, ultimate masterpiece. Definitely get more out of TLG, personally.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
Chinatown is an ambitious and successful recreation of the 1940s; the details in that movie are amazing, from the sets to the clothes, to the hair styles. The movie also has one of the most depressing endings in film history, and the tone of gravitas throughout the story is very well sustained. And of course the movie is carried by three great performances by Nicholson, Dunaway and Houston. I don't think its status is that mysterious.
But The Long Goodbye certainly felt younger, more modern; it was irreverent, absurd, messier, not so formal. It was indeed a flash of genius to drop a 1950s PI in the crazy seventies. It made for a great clash of cultures.
This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.
Chinatown amounts to a uniquely powerful statement with one of the strongest climaxes in any film, but as a whole, it´s just not that exciting. It´s sort of too precise, slick and perfect for its own good while largely lacking the quirky, absurdist sensibility usually characteristic to Polanski´s work. Besides, isn´t it a recreation of the 30´s, not 40´s?
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
You are right in a sense I suppose. TLG vs Chinatown is an example of films greatest debate. I think Chinatown is an obviously superior film, but there is no accounting for taste. Chinatown has endured as a classic and is a damn near perfect film technically. It might leave some cold but for most its a perfect movie, flawless in its execution. Every line of dialogue means something and leads somewhere. For many thats exciting, a feeling of watching precise artists dominate a genre and medium. However that leaves some with no excitement, so its completely understandable why some prefer Altman's movie. TGL is great as well for different reasons. I think Chinatown is a better film in a vacuum but have no problem with people preferring TGL. In some ways I feel this statement could be broadcast in every single this film is better than this revered masterpiece thread. Its not a crime to think a lesser known film is better than an established great!
shareIt's interesting that you bring up Polanki's absurdist sensibilities. They've never occurred to me till now, but I can see it. But let's not judge a film by what it's not, let's judge it by what it is. Right? The climax of Chinatown is everything, and it reverberates through the entirety of the film like the ripple of effect a sperm whale belly-flopping into the puddle that forms outside my front door whenever it rains. It is everything. That's what makes Chinatown so good, its perfect structure utterly lacking excess because the ending swallowed the whole like a 20th century white god breaching. Or whale.
And I love excess.
I love The Long Goodbye, even as I regret the forced ending. But it looks like the critics got this one right. No real contest.
New edit: Or maybe it isn't that the ending is forced, but maybe, instead, it is that Altman's personal stamp on the Marlowe character changed him so much by giving Chandler's Pulp humanity (cause it lacks that, right? It's just really good writing. Its shallowness is its appeal and failing), that suddenly the very cool ending resounds like a techno beat in a Beethoven symphony: Cheap.
"The climax of Chinatown is everything".
That`s precisely what spells problem for me - Chinatown`s overall quality and the impression it makes, are `too` reliant on the ending. Meanwhile, the rest of the film, with its perfectly orchestrated period recreation and the clean structural edges, sort of tends to suffocate. TLG feels more adventurous, free-flowing, imaginative while likewise communicating deeper dimensions of nostalgia, sadness and despair amongst its emotional palette; all in all, Chinatown is the more important film, but I do think TLG is better - or at least more fascinating.
"Polanski`s absurdist sensibilities".
They`re indeed mostly lovable, but on occasion he does have a tendency to go too far with them - most prominently in the idiotic Che?, which has the dishonorable distinction of being one of the 10 worst movies I`ve ever seen (well, one of the 10 I`ve rated 1/10 on IMDb. Polanski`s in fairly illustrious company there though, as the other 9 include works by Jean-Luc Godard, David Cronenberg & Jean-Pierre Jeunet). Fearless Vampire Killers, Cul-De-Sac and Pirates also sometimes wander onto the territory of overripe, sort of groan-inducing kookiness. Whereas The Tenant would probably be the work where the balance between (relatively outrageous) humor and serious creepiness is hit with the most precision.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
I see the contrast you are drawing between the two films, and I can appreciate it. I love Pulp Fiction after all. But for me a film is too perfect, or "suffocating", when its immaculately composed surface lacks layers (something like The Social Network). This is not the case with Chinatown. The entire film is haunted by the ending. Or we could just say that Chinatown owes more to the short story format than the novel: it's built around an epiphany. I've been trying to think of other "great" films with similar formats, but I can't. All these "epiphany" films, such as The Sixth Sense, The Manchurian Candidate, The Usual Suspects, usually end up cheapening themselves once they reveal their mystery. But Chinatown doesn't. Maybe because death can never be fully revealed. It is the supreme mystery.
I've been planning on watching The Tenant for a while. Pirates has always sounded too bizarre to overlook as well. I don't have the patience to watch his entire catalogue though. I watched a little of The Pianist a while back, and I had to stop after a while because the direction was so stilted and melodramatic. I felt like retching. If I'm going to rate something lower than a 6, I usually just choose to turn it off instead.
Well, while The Sixth Sense and The Usual Suspects are clearly amongst these "twist movies", very much setting the stage, in fact, then Chinatown & The Manchurian Candidate really aren`t (the latter, of course, moves through a lot of twists and turns along the way). Interesting though this Shyamalan cash cow indeed feels cheapened by the "big reveal", yet another movie, The Others, a couple of years later, has an all but identical dynamic, but the finale comes across as haunting and deeply affecting instead. All in the aesthetic. And The Usual Suspects... I think I do like it a lot, but have, for some reason, never been really able to properly figure out, or articulate, why. Almost feel it "shouldn`t" work, thinking back on it - and yet have found it a compelling viewing about 6 or so times already.
I like The Pianist - although it`s a very restrained effort by Polanski`s standards and frankly, it is difficult for me to figure out what`s up with this "stilted and melodramatic". Sure, it does dutifully go through the usual checklist of Jewish ghetto horrors, but overall I find it rather sober and authentic feeling; a much less manipulative take on this stuff than the obscenely overrated suspense thriller Schindler`s List. And I`m yet to see a Polanski picture that`s badly filmed.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
Two great films from two great directors, but Chinatown is clearly the more significant experience -- a fully realized tragedy that impacts one's world view. It's ending deeply painful to endure -- highly classic.
I appreciate the insight with the Sixth Sense/The Others comparison above. Agreed, Shyamalan's ending was not as deeply affecting but it knocked me out with its surprise punch, as intended. It didn't feel cheap to me, just very well constructed, and I grooved on it for more than a few minutes after the ending credits. The Others stayed with me for more than a few hours.
Oh that magic feeling -- nowhere to go.
I agree that Chinatown is the more important film of the two.
Maybe "cheapen" is not the best word, but The Sixth Sense`s ending does leave a somewhat gimmicky impression. The film as a whole`s rather saccharine going, too; sort of a sub-Spielbergian thing (as some reviewer once remarked - early in his career Shyamalan looked like he`ll become the new Spielberg... but then he decided to become a new Ed Wood Jr instead).
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
The thing I feel about these twist movies: They want to hide their twist, they want to surprise. If they delve into the psychology of their characters, then they will reveal their surprise. So instead they attempt to trick their viewer into concentrating on a different problem, like "a kid who sees dead people". But inevitable twist reveals that this initial problem isn't primary to the film all, it's the twist that is important! So now you go back and watch the film, but the twist really has nothing to do with most of the film because the filmmaker didn't want to give away the twist. In other words, the frost doesn't match the filling. Somebody slabbed whipping cream on top of my quiche! Don't have much time. but will probably have more to say on this later. Just watched Oldboy. It really lays this problem out in interesting ways.
shareThe viewer and the Willis character discover the "twist" concurrently, and it is a powerful and highly poignant moment. Granted, it's full impact can probably only be experienced once, but still I treasure the memory like an excellent e-ticket ride. It could not have worked so well without strong and thoughtful development of all of the main characters (along with solid acting), including pertinent psychological elements. I apologize this has nothing to do with TLG, but the slam on TSS needs a response.
Oh that magic feeling -- nowhere to go.
Maybe I should watch the film again. It has been over ten years. But as far as I can remember, it's a scary film on the outside, with a whiff of psychological insight at the end. Maybe I will watch it next week. I guess I rated it an 8 way back when I was a teenager. So, just so you know, I definitely don't hate the film. And I've got LOTS of appreciation for Unbreakable.
shareSo I'm gonna try to lay out Oldboy's structure, cause it's crazy unique, and it doesn't work. I'm gonna also give away a pretty essential plot twist to the film: SPOILERS!:
Oldboy is advertised as a "revenge film". Dae-su Oh is locked away in a prison for 15 years, and no one tells him why. When he comes out, he wants revenge on his imprisoners and to know the reason for his imprisonment. I think "revenge films" work with pretty standard methods. You've got to give your audience a cause and effect. So those early Leone spaghetti westerns work as easy representations: Clint Eastwood gets brutalized (cause), he recovers, he takes righteous revenge (effect). As a storyteller, you've got to make your audience feel the character's loss, which in turn allows the audience to be galvanized into embodying the said character's emotions (most often anger) and actions (revenge). But I think Oldboy is actually about the "twist", not the "revenge". To manage the semblance of revenge, Chan-wook Park fuses three disparate structures into one film:
1. Cause: This is the beginning of the story. We see a drunken Dae-su Oh acting shamelessly and then being imprisoned for 15 years. We are made to understand that these 15 years crush Dae-su: Life goes on without him while he remains living out a meaningless existence. But Chan-wook does little to convey this loss. This would entail revealing Dae-su's relationship with his family, his wife, his child. Instead we get a TV news flash communicating Dae-su's wife's murder. Dae-su barely reacts, which I really don't mind, perhaps he is emotionally sterile at the time, but my problem is that we come to know nothing of Dae-su's relationship with his family (neither wife or child). The cause for revenge is completely passed over on an emotional level. As a result, we cannot embody his loss. Why? Because Chan-wook Park is making a "twist film", not a "revenge film".
2. Effect: So this would be the part in which Dae-su takes righteous revenge on his prisoners. And he does: he pulls out teeth, he fights off a myriad of thugs in very cool fashion. But like I said previously, because we haven't felt Dae-su's loss, we cannot feel his revenge. Also, it turns out that the big bad guy, the man truly responsible for Dae-su's imprisonment, is a mystery: Dae-su doesn't know Woo-jin Lee from his former life. Now the story turns into something of a detective mystery as Dae-su uncovers the reasons for Woo-jin Lee's ostensibly unaccountable revenge. Once Dae-su figures this out, he can go back to righteous revenge and kill off Woo-jin Lee. Then everybody will be angry and happy, right? Yay! But Chan-wook Park has a trick up his sleeve: While his audience hungrily devours the clues to Ji-tae Yu revenge, he's actually developing a love story (and love scene) between Dae-su and Mi-do. Why? Because he's setting us up for the twist.
3. Twist: Mi-do is Dae-su's daughter! Dae-su is forced into the stomach churning realization that he has made love to his own daughter! But because he was unknowingly manipulated by Woo-jin Lee into the act, because his emotional ties to Mi-do as his daughter haven't been described by the filmmaker because the filmmaker wanted to surprise the audience, this realization holds no consequence over the rest of the film. This would also explain why Chan-wook Park skipped over developing Dae-su's relationship with his family before his imprisonment: Developing the "cause" for the "revenge film" would give away the surprise in the "twist" ending.
In other words:
Chan-wook has carefully developed a plot structure devoid of any insight into the themes his story holds, thereby achieving his aim: he surprises us.
I realize I've gotten really off-topic here, but the subject interests me. All apologies to those who want to talk about The Long Goodbye.
I think you exaggerate the importance of the revelation that Evelyn was Noah Cross's daughter, if your point is that the entire mystery underlying the plot hinges on that. Gittes's gradual realization of who was behind the water diversions, and why, was for me intriguing and the nerve center of the plot. As for the Mulray family saga, I could've done without it, but I don't think it either enhances or detracts.
share[deleted]
'Chinatown' is my all-time fave film. I loved a quintessentially American detective story, told from a European POV. I seriously loved the fatalistic climax.
That said--I've always loved 'The Long Goodbye'.
I recall that, upon it's release a local critic described Gould's Marlowe, as a cross between Bogart & W.C. Fields.
Carpe Noctem!
Chinatown beats TLG hands down in every aspect of film making.
Right from the word go, Chinatown captivates you and in no moment in the film it lingers or labors. TLG has too many scenes that dwells for no reason.
TLG is better precisely because it "lingers and labors". Builds a bit more captivating, lived-in world perhaps.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
SPOILERS for both movies:
Chinatown was positioned by its canny producer -- movie studio chief Robert Evans(STILL the studio head when he produced Chinatown) as an "prestige event movie." Oscar-worthy. He made sure that Chinatown got "the hard sell" in the summer of 1974 with gigantic full paid ads continually in the LA times. He had the full resources of Paramount to make it so.
Whereas The Long Goodbye(from United Artists) never got proper distribution or promotion(several different posters were made to promote it.)
But there were two ways in which Chinatown was a bigger deal than The Long Goodbye:
ONE: The incest angle. This was the big deal about Chinatown. Much as Deliverance had been "the male rape movie" something that could only be made after the Hays Code died(in 1968), so was Chinatown "the incest movie."
TWO: The juxtaposition of the "personal" detective mystery with the "historical" tale of the creation of greater Los Angeles via a theft of water rights. If the incest broke ground on one level, the water politics was epic on another.
Against the incest angle and the water rights history of Chinatown..The Long Goodbye wasn't really about much of anything "historic."
I can't agree with this statement, but it might not be a fair comparison, since Chinatown was a high budget film and TLG is more or less a cheapie. I personally believe that Chinatown is one of the great movies of that great moviemaking decade of the '70s. (I'd be appalled that it didn't win the Oscar that year, but Godfather II is some stiff competition, as is The Conversation!) TLG just strikes me as too odd to compare favorably. I like quirky, but it is maybe too quirky to succeed all that well. I don't care a lot for the look of it either, though I understand that many folks like its flashing. Great ending, though; I can't imagine a more appropriate one. In a way, its ending is more satisfying than Chinatown's, even though the latter's ending is much celebrated by many. So thumb's up for both movies, but a very big thumb's up for Chinatown.
share[deleted]
I cherish both films, The Long Goodbye perhaps even a bit more. Despite both involving PIs, they are such different films that I find comparisons pointless. The Long Goodbye defies comparison to any film, in my opinion. It'd be more worth your time comparing it to The Rockford Files.
shareBoth are fine films, that dealt with similar genre matters, in different ways. While Chinatown lured us into thinking we're going to watch a nostalgic look at a beloved old genre, and then shocked us by subverting it, The Long Goodbye seemed at first to be a Brooksian parody, but turned out something actually rather true to the source (other than the ending).
So I wouldn't use the term "better", as they both work wonderfully.
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
to rock my soul