A question I've always pondered seriously as a non-Christian

I agree about Judas' foreordained role in betraying Jesus. SOMEONE had to betray him. But I was raised with Catholic religious instruction, and Judas committed the sin of despair when he assumed God wouldn't forgive him and instead hanged himself. Personally I think a forgiving God would forgive anything. But for what it's worth, that is what I remember.
In the film, Judas never comes to terms with God as far as concerns asking forgiveness. He just seems concerned about having a bad reputation throughout eternity.
Some people have to blame SOMEONE for Jesus' death. Why it isn't the Romans I don't know.

Not that you asked, but I remember specifically being told in my Catholic religion classes that it was wrong to blame the Jews for Christ's death. Not that I ever did, but I guess the nuns wanted to nip that prejudice in the bud, just in case!




"Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

I'm way late but you're right, but I think the answer lies in actual history more so than anything. I am loosely a Roman Catholic, but have applied reasoning to my beliefs as well.

There were over 30 gospels that were written, but only 4 are recognized while the others took a backseat to them. The Gnostics(early christians) taught from several different gospels, including a Gospel of Judas. This gospel was translated back in 2006, and while the translation is controversial the story has the potential to rewrite Christian history. The story essentially preaches that Jesus told Judas to do what he did, in other words Jesus wanted it to be done.

In keeping with the story Judas couldn't possible be the complete villain. Who knows why they chose the 4 gospels to be the difinative word, but it trickles down- if Judas didn't do it then christ would have never died for our sins then Christianity would have never existed.

If it was God's will then he truly could not take another path, and by saying he is a
villain they are saying that it wasn't God's will and that Jesus didn't have to die. But wait a minute! The whole religion exists based upon Christ, the messiah's, death. If Judas had the choice then that would mean we owe the entire religion to Judas. While if he didn't have control cause it was God's will then the credit goes to God.

Simply put you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you believe that it was God's will then it makes no sense for you to perceive Judas as a villain, it's only possible if you believe that it wasn't God's will and his actions were his alone and not a representation of God's will.

The early church probably wanted a villain and chose the 4 gospels partially because of that. You also have to keep in mind that the Gospels were written anonymously 100-200 years after Christ's life so it's likely the story changed from word of mouth before being written down.

From my point of view, the words "logic" and "religion" cannot happily coexist in the same sentence, and that is why
I am no longer a Methodist. Interesting that you brought up "The Last Temptation of Christ." I remember when that film was released, how the various religious sects worked themselves into righteous uproars, until I thought "Hum, I should go see this one."

What was ironic, for me, about that film was I felt a spiritual stirring, an awakening, while I watched Jesus' possible life unfold (take that, you silly Bible-thumpers!). I began to understand how Jesus could have been human and yet the son of God. Dafoe's acting enabled me to, for the first time in my life, conceive of the humanity in Jesus, and for me that was a profound realization. The casting of Keitel as the devil was brilliant, as well. "The Last Temptation" was a very powerful and gripping story that came VERY close to changing my life. But, I may appreciate and even love the art of film, but thank God (!) not enough to give the control of my mind to anyone else. And that is what organized religion is at its core - mind control, whether Methodists or Scientologists.

I'm sorry to have gone completely off topic. I think you were right when you wrote that Judas was simply helping Jesus fulfill his destiny. I gave up on Christianity for many reasons, and the blatant almost innumerable contradictions are one. If God really gave people free will, would there even be the need for the concept of destiny? How could God know what was going to happen to his Son if He did not in any way control people's lives? Good grief. I'll take science, and my faith in the love of the human heart.

Human Rights: Know Them, Demand Them, Defend Them

Regardless of whatever film, story, play, etc. in which Judas is portrayed, I have always pitied Judas and his fate. I feel he was a "necessary evil" in the events resulting in Jesus' crucifixion. In essence, he played an important part in bringing God's will to fruition. Jesus left him with a kiss, a way of acknowledging Judas' hapless role in the matter.

"Judas" really should not be a synonym for traitor. He paid the ultimate price for his trespass. He was not without remorse.

Most people will tell you it is God's will & the betrayal of Judas was destined.

Provide scripture to support that ...& try to do that WITHOUT twisting or taking things out of context.

Yeah ... good luck with that.

The Romans could have found Jesus on their own. May have taken them longer but who cares. If it had to happen it would happen. Judas unnecessarily helped it along.

Furthermore, Peter also betrayed Jesus ... three times.

The difference is: one repented, the other did not & THAT is where Judas goes truly wrong.

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Your post includes questions from a Biblical viewpoint, from a philosophical viewpoint, and from the standpoint of the film(s). I can only tell you my understanding from the standpoint of the film.

In "Jesus Christ Superstar", only Jesus and Judas really see the big picture. They understand they are there to do God's will. Does that mean they had no free will? I think the characters in film believe they had no free will. Both, in their moments, believed they were puppets. And they had other questions about the big picture, like why send a representative of the gospel to "such a backward place in such a strange land?" This raises a larger question about why a supreme being, hoping to explain "himself" and spread "his" message would communicate so cryptically and through so many signs and messages that seem to contradict each other?

In the film, I see Judas as the hero, the one who always insisted on truthfulness and dedication to a cause. My opinion is that he was sometimes confused, too, because the methods of God did not make sense to him. If he had been a man of faith only, he could have just accepted, but he wanted to make sense of things. Jesus also, has his lapses, wondering why instead of just accepting, but he eventually gives in to the powerful forces that were driving him toward an unavoidable fate.

These messages don't square with everyone's views of the Christ story, but the film manages to find acceptance by many people of different views.

My understanding of the narrative is that the priests were already discussing how to arrest and try Jesus before Judas became involved. They couldn't arrest him in a crowded, public place, so Judas betrayed Christ by telling the priests the place and time to arrest him discreetly. Without Judas' involvement, they probably would eventually have determined how to quietly arrest Christ or become bold enough to take him in public. Judas merely expedited the process.