I was thoroughly enjoying this film right up until the scene when Diane Keaton and Woody Allen are in his apartment and have that strange conversation about rape.
That one moment destroyed any sympathy I had for both their characters and left a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of film.
Perhaps I'm making too much of it, but I found it to be in bad taste and not fitting with the rest of the film's spirit.
I'm curious to know what other people thought, too!
It's definitely a bit awkward and dated compared to the rest of the movie, but I think it's mostly to set up Woody's line ("I was nowhere near Oakland!") which is delivered hilariously.
I thought of this thread the other day when I watching an old "Simpsons" episode in which Homer almost hits Ned Flanders over the head with a wrench to get his football tickets. Yes, that's right, Homer Simpson, beloved by America, contemplates murder (or attempted murder) in order to score some football tickets. Now, surely if the Simpsons can make a joke about murder ...
I wonder if people actually comprehended this film.
Woody Allen had the hots for his friend's wife. Neurotic and paranoid, he went through all the ins and outs as to whether he could make a move. She mentions rape and he jumps.
He's so nervous and insecure that he places his situation (having the hots for a girl and not know if/how to make a move) with being an actual rapist.
Right, there was also a "fantasy" scenario right before this where he attacks her in front of the fireplace and she yells "rape," whereas in the previous fantasies she had given in to his advances. This film is also about what's going in Alan's (the character's) head.
Now, surely if the Simpsons can make a joke about murder ..
In this wacky world in which we live, rape is deemed a much more heinous crime than murder, for some unfathomable reason. Personally, I think it's insane; a product of pure propaganda.
___ I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow reply share
Everyone's going to die someday, but not everyone is going to be raped, and most men will never even have to think about it. Also, most of us can imagine a scenario where we might be willing to kill (self defense, or even revenge), whereas most of us could not imagine a scenario where we would deem rape acceptable. Imagine if, in The Princess Bride, Inigo Montoya's father was killed by a woman, and his famous line was "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. I'm going to rape you." No one would like that character, and no one would cheer his revenge. Killing her would be more acceptable, because it would be seen as basic justice, a life for a life. Rape, on the other hand, is pretty much just expressing a contempt for women. I personally hate PC language police, but I understand why rape is a touchier subject than many.
Whenever I watch older comedies, I always put myself in the context of that generation culturally. Certain types of humor were definitely more acceptable during particular eras and so I generally come out unscathed in terms of being offended (if not a tiny bit uncomfortable).
It's pretty necessary to overlook these things and see them through a more objective eye if we're to enjoy the movie right? I got through the physical humour of Cary Grant knocking Katherine Hepburn down to the ground in The Philadelphia Story and the child molestation joke in Airplane. I think this rape conversation ranks higher on the comfort meter for me.
I have to agree with patmss. Movie viewers frequently observe a film through their own cultural lens......typically a view influenced by modern political ideas (whether it be an addiction to FOX news or the latest liberal PC trend). I've observed people posit that Ken Kesey's "Sometimes a Great Notion" was about a conservative, anti-union, anti-Hollywood ideology (they clearly had no idea who Ken Kesey was!) and another guy who was appalled that Robert Redford starred in "Jeremiah Johnson" because it was such an "anti-Native American" film ....YIKES! Yet another reason I'm glad that I am old.....I won't have to suffer such fools much longer!
1. MAN, people are so PC these days. It's a JOKE. And an old-fashioned joke. When I was a kid... girls and boys (I mean like 10 year olds) would shout 'rape' as a joke if someone got too close for any reason. It was good natured for the simple reason that the idea of rape was just so over the top. Mothers might say, "I'm gonna kill that boy when I get home." It was just an -expression-.
2. OTOH, I see movies that are supposed to appeal to teens/Millenials and the casualness about 'sex' and relationships in general just astounds me. There's absolutely no sense of sex as having any sacredness (I don't mean that in a religious context). They make all interactions so 'casual' and meaningless.
It just strikes me as odd that there is so much sensitivity about these old-fashioned jokes while there is such a tsunami of constant hyper-sexualised culture -now-.
It just seems like people worry over the wrong things.
For many reasons, our modern society (at least in North America) seems to have undergone an erosion of its sense of humor. The latter is an individual attribute, of course, and it varies enormously as a function of people's intelligence, religious beliefs, body of ethics, etc. Unfortunately for those of us who can transcend first-degree language and distil condemnable behavior to put some absurdity in evidence, no matter the subject matter, a neo-puritanical school of thought appears to have made more and more adepts - as well as damage. Basically, for people endorsing such views on what is off-limits for laughter (generally in an unconscious, non-deliberate manner), there is an arbitrary decision that is made on what constitutes (or not) humor.
A good litmus test to detect whether one has already adhered –at least in part- to that neo-puritanism of modern humor is to subject oneself to typical episodes of extreme adult cartoons such as Family Guy, South Park or Robot Chicken, just to name these few. Each of these shows uses just about any topic to generate hilarity, generally right on target for a sizable audience (which is somewhat reassuring). It might be a drastic test as a matter of fact, but I found that I could ROFLMAO with just about any subject covered in these shows, except when I was very tired and could simply not see beyond the immediate repulsiveness of the topic itself (incest, extreme violence as a tool to accentuate a comical line, child masturbation, you name it, as anything goes with these cartoons as you know well). It must be emphasized, though, that these cartoons have one thing in common: they are generally playing the absurd chord, and absurdity is ubiquitous. Meaning: the irony does not bear on the subject matter, but rather on the collision of two ideas that make no sense when juxtaposed. It is virtually independent of any moral judgement on the topic in question, and humor lies strictly in the clash between two or more concepts. It's the idea brought by these juxtapositions that is funny, not the topic per se. In fact, the same type of absurdity could be found using almost any other "bad" behavior as a trigger for creating some absurd scenario.
And please don’t try to label me as a snob or an elitist if I mention that I count myself among those who can laugh at about anything: this is not a proof of a superior mind, but more of a freer one. Free-minded people are often perceived as spoiled brats who have never experienced any of these delicate topics which can lead to a good laughter provided that the script or writing or conception is good. In my case, at least, let me say that acquiring a truly free mind was a long, difficult process and a costly affair. It is a life choice that means sacrificing a lot of opportunities simply to preserve one’s freedom, and often means making enemies. On the other hand, the inner feeling that one gains is more than just a liberty of thinking: it’s also a sense of inner peace and spiritual strength, which means a lot in the face of adversity. And I encountered more than my lot of it!
Naturally, all roads lead to Rome, and there is more than one way to remain able to find humor with even the most immoral, disgusting topics imaginable, provided that there is, like I said above, some process of distillation. It is in the quintessence that humor lies, and it can be found everywhere, anywhere. As Rabelais wrote: “Laughter is a purely human attribute.” Are the offended virgins who are multiplying in the early 21st century losing it? And since I’m in a mood for citations, I’ll let Pascal finish: “Man is neither beast nor angel, and trouble is: who wants to play the angel, plays the beast.”
The cartoons mentioned above specifically target adults, because the capacity for abstraction fully develops when reaching maturity – with the help of a proper education, of course, and by there I don’t equate education with academic training. Common sense can develop even in people who never studied Plato or Descartes: a full, uninhibited sense of humor needs only the flame of intelligence.
That’s a-a-a-a-ll folks, and Viva PIAS and all the politically incorrect comics of the world!
I am not as extreme as yerself. I find much 'modern' humour (Family Guy, Borat, South Park) either derivative or just plain soul destroying. The irony for me is that some of the very same people who might -love- Family Guy would find Play It Again Sam 'offensive'
I think that some of this bias is generational. Younger people are far more willing to assume that their peers 'know what I mean', whereas older people were all 'racists'... in the same way that young people of every era tend to think they invented profanity, sex, etc.
As a professor at 59, I give term papers rather than do them :-)
And you're partly right with your apt observation that extreme humor cartoons à laSouth Park or Family Guy may reflect a certain tendency to soul destroying. I can't help but notice that clever Seth MacFarlane's universe seems to have now reached its limits and that the now famous and multimillionaire animator/cartoonist/multi-impersonator blatantly reflects a major corollary of the Peter's Principle. As he's climbing the ladder of worldwide fame and financial success,not only his current-day creations tend to be mere rehashing of original material from his early years, but their cleverness appears to follow an unfortunate downward trajectory, with a bizarre fixation on poop, farting and ano-rectal variations thereabout.
Don't get me wrong: my complaint is not at all about the fact that I resent farting/pooping jokes per se, and they have been a welcome healthy, Rabelaisian complement to the assortment of clever and absurd socio-historical comments on conservative, Caucasian-dominated and God-fearing segments of the American (mostly) society, but I can't help but notice that scatological humor appears to represent a growing portion of humor in MacFarlane's most recent creations. Not that I'm very much concerned about the future success of what appears to have become, if not an empire, at least a big kingdom of his :-) (haven't they announced a Ted 2 for 2015?). Moreover, every time Family Guy's cancellation is announced, the show makes a huge comeback due to fans' outrage.
We're nowhere the end of that type of humor, thank God. However, despite the fact that like millions of huge fans out there, I can't have enough of it and will definitely buy Season 50 of Family Guy when it's out :-), I can't help but have a feeling of emptiness after watching whether it's Family Guy, South Park, American Dad, Robot Chicken and the like (the selection is growing, for the better methinks!). Yes, thrashing everything and demonstrating that nothing is sacred is funny and a sign of sanity, but at the same time, it's a liberating more than an enriching process. Thus, after a Play It Again Sam or a Bananas, I'll need perhaps a Match Point or a Crimes and Misdemeanors to regain some perspective on reality, despite the fact that we're always talking about fiction here.... That's what Woody Allen's humor and fantasies are capable of: to either make you forget about the miseries of our human existences, or reflect upon it. Hey! Allen might have attempted to imitate his master Bergman more than once, but Bergman's attempts at humor (or levity, more exactly...) have been few, charming, but never cracking up.
One can thus try to minimize the merits of Woody's Interiors, for instance, by calling it Bergman-derivative, but the Swedish genius did not leave us any Play It Again Sam. Thinking about it, I have little doubt that people who can't dig Allen's Interiors or Match Point because they can't imagine someone as funny as Woody Allen capable of profundity are probably the same who deny humorists the right to make us laugh when the topic is something as condemnable as rape...
it's good for me to see your fairly long, thoughtful replies on movies/tv and our society. My opinion is - "largely immaterial/And if the President replies mind your own Goddamn business Tucker" - that society is degenerating, peoples lives (in the countries I know) are too combined and mixed up between indoctrination and freedom for the majority to do anything but be trapped in low common denominators of thought and behaviour. I have always tried to live according to my own rules as much as I can so I am probably not a good judge however, or I am biased due to a natural criticism of a society degenerating ever since the Industrial Revolution tore people off the land or since the Ancient Greeks for that matter. And if I had lived then I would have probably disliked it too. As Samuel Buckett's character said "People are bloody ignorant apes" - it was ever thus. I shouldn't expect any different. As there are more and more of this strange self-indulgent species on this planet it could hardly be anything but getting worse until we eventually destroy ourselves or our environment... (I seem to be doing a personal version of the scene in the art gallery) At least Woody makes me laugh, and he does it IMO without resorting to the lowest common denominator. He looks for meaning in life in his movies, even the early funny ones have serious aspects to their plots. Bananas for example looks at the foreign policy and legal system in the US for example, and is partly influenced by the great social protests of the time. Sure he only goes to San Marcos to get a girl, but that's why it's a comedy.
From virtually the start the film has "Bogart" saying to WA: "Dames are simple, I never met one that didn't understand a slap in the mouth or a Colt 45" and "Relationship? Where did you learn that word" If you don't like the "rape" scene you wouldn't like these "jokes" either if you really thought about it. Allens films are irreverent he doesn't worry so much about what topics he is allowed to be funny about. Sooner or later he goes too far for one person or another. But funny is funny whatever the topic and Allen is funny whether it offends someone sensibilities or not.
Allan: Let's not get carried away. I'm not an appealing guy. The thought that a girl like Linda could fall for me! I'm kidding myself. Where the hell is she anyhow? By now she could have had her Goddamn steak and been out of here. (Door Buzzes) Linda: I feel so light, that lithium I took today is really beginning to work. Allan: Look. Maybe you'd better not have any champagne. Linda: Oh, no, Allan, if I get a little carried away, you can always call the police. Allan: How long did you say Dick was going to be out of town for? Linda: Oh he'll be back tomorrow. Allan: There's a new Truffaut film over at the Regency, I think maybe we should go out and see it. Linda: Come on you're kidding! We're all set for here. Besides, it's starting to rain, and you know I just remembered, that great lda Lupino movie's on Channel 4. You know the one where she's happily married and suddenly becomes involved with her husband's best friend. Allan: How does it end? Linda: She kills them and herself. Allan: Let's go out! Linda: Oh no Allan, I really want to see the Ida Lupino movie. It's a fascinating theme. Do you think it is possible to love two people at once? Allan: What do you mean? Linda: Um, well, a wife, happily married, suddenly finds she out loves another man. Not that she doesn't love her husband, just that, she loves somebody else. Do you think that's very possible? Allan: Do you? Linda: Very. Very possible; and possibly very common. Love is such a strange phenomenon. Strange and exquisite. Bogart: Go ahead, make your move. Allan (to Bogart) No, I can't. Bogart: Go ahead. Take her and kiss her. Linda: Is anything wrong Allan? Bogart: Go ahead. She wants it. Hurry before she moves out of position. Bogart: Kiss her, kid. Linda: I guess I'd better be getting on with those potatoes. Bogart: Well, kid, you blew it. Allan: I can't do it. How's it look I invite her over and come on like a sex degenerate. What do you think I am a rapist? Bogart: You're getting carried away. You think too much, just do it. Allan: We're platonic friends. I can't spoil that by coming on. She'll slap my face! Bogart: Oh, I've had my face slapped plenty of times. Allan: But your glasses don't go flying across the room. Bogart: You're going to disappoint her kid. Allan: I can't
The more I think of this scene, the more I think it is central to the plot. Is it awkward yes - it's supposed to be. Is it inappropriate? Absolutely not, the movie hinges on it. Yes, the scene goes on, and he breaks the lamp etc. But I can't type it all out! I like the whole scene.
I'm not sure what you mean by "inappropriate." The film isn't made for children.
It does stick out these days, though. I can't imagine hearing such a conversation in real life. There's a similar bit in Hitchcock's Frenzy, where a serial killer is described as being not so bad because "at least he rapes them first," or words to that effect, provoking laughter from women in the scene. Again, not a reaction I'd expect to hear in reality. Maybe for adults at the time it wouldn't have seemed out of place. There's a joke in Animal House about whether or not a guy will have sex with an unconscious girl, which was funny at the time, but which would not be at all amusing today.
I am 68 and saw this film when it opened in 1972 in theaters in NYC. In 1972, the audience laughed at that "rape joke" scene. When I watched this film in 2015, i cringed. it was just so.... bad, so off putting, so awkward and unfunny.
The times sometimes frame the way we see "jokes." In today's politically correct world, that scene would end up on the cutting room floor.
I think if looked at broadly, the "joke" reflects the mind set of the writer who wrote the film.