MovieChat Forums > Carnal Knowledge (1971) Discussion > I did not like this movie at all

I did not like this movie at all


okay, I find Mich Nichols to be a decent director from many of his previous films including: Charlie Wilson's War and Jack Nicholson is one of my all-time favorite actors. But with such a good pair, I still did not like this movie. I did not find it humorous, I found the sex talk between Garfunkel and Nicholson appalling and disgusting, and the nudity was over the top. What happened to being moral person? Just screwing ladies and explicitly talking about it does not make a movie for me.

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come on, any opinions?

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I don't think you're supposed to fall in love with either character. CK is a basically a character study of the sexual evolution/devolution of two American males of a certain generation, with all of their hangups, sexual prejudices, and ego issues.

That said, no, CK isn't exactly a laugh-fest like so many of Nichols' other films (although the Nicholson-Ann Margret fight scene is a classic). But that doesn't make it any less fascinating a story, for me at least.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2BU8-7kQLI

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I think the movie was a very interesting study of relationships and the evolution of sexuality. The college years laid a great ground work for their future relationships, the stifled sexual standards of the 60s putting a deep strain on their later monogomous relationships in the 70s. I think this was very true of the times -- in many ways, the 60s' antiquated views on sex led to the rise of divorce in the 70s. Nichols was very clever to notice this, and depicted this quite cleverly and fluidly with this movie. It had great dialogue, interesting transitions from generation-to-generation, his camera technique is always good (long still close-up shots with the tension in the off screen action), and the way the characters were partitioned from period to period (like Candice Bergen who just disappeared from the movie) was an interesting effect.

Overall, I thought this was a very good film. Reminds me alot of the last Ian McEwan novel, "On Chesil Beach" -- the themes of these two works are very much in dialogue with each other (the effects of surpressed sexual desires in the 60s). I also can't help but think of "Kramer vs Kramer" as a film equally in the pathenon of period relationship studies (though "Kramer" is held in higher esteem).

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Not to be too terribly nit-picky, but listening to the music that was playing during their college years in Carnal Knowledge, I think that it was supposed to be the post-war late '40s into the pre-rock'n'roll of the early '50s, which really did have "stifled sexual standards."

The later '50s loosened up with Elvis and Doo-Wop groups, the early to mid '60s were my college years with the Beatles and Rolling Stones, and by the time I graduated, it was "sex & drugs, & rock 'n' roll" ~~~ leading to Monterey Pop and many smaller rock concerts, hippies and the Summer of Love, Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, and Woodstock with "free love" abounding throughout the mid-to-late '60s. I just don't perceive much of the '60s being remembered for "surpressed sexual desires," except for the very early '60s in the small towns!

You probably have a very good point with the concept of the divorce rate climbing in the '70s and thereafter! And my understanding of the years that were featured in CK started in the post-war'40s and continued until the early '70s when the sexual attitudes had definitely changed for many people.

Most of your other points about the movie are right on target. I just recall the '50s the way that you remember the '60s and the '60s as being the years of the "Sexual Revolution" and not as years of "Sexual Repression."

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Nudity over the top! You got to be kidding. Compared to movies nowadays it was pretty tame. If you don't like it don't watch it. It was a fascinating character study -- you sound like a prude. The fight scene between Nicholson's character and Ann-Margaret was hilarous!

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This was made when sexual boundaries were being tested and the ratings system (which didn't exist until 1968) allowed people to have nudity and sex talk in the movies. I don't think the movie was dirty at all. The sex talk WAS frank...but it's supposed to be. And over the top nudity????? Come ON! It was extremely tame! You see Ann-Margret nude but that's about it. When Nicholson was nude it was shot so nothing was shown. I think you're too prudish to deal with this movie.
That being said I found the movie boring and extremely dated. I guess this was the first film of its kind and I heard it was considered quite daring...for 1971. Nowadays it's predictable, slow and depressing. The acting is all good (except for Garfunkel) but that doesn't help the movie.

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Really, preppy?

I didn't find it dated at all, except for the fact that instead of college boys talking about losing their virginity, it would be high school kids today.

Overall, OP, I would definitely say that this isn't really supposed to be a laugh-fest; it IS a bit vulgar in dialogue and it is depressing--it's the 1970s equivilant of today's Closer.


The greatest trick the devil ever played, was convincing the world he did not exist.

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OK Out. U don't have to agree with me but I found the sex talk kind of silly, predictable and dated (no talk of STDs or HIV like they would today). And you're right on two counts--it's a LOT like "Closer" and it would be hs kids today.

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"tight-wod"? I think it's tight-wad. And I'm a liberal not a conservative. I just found the movie sterile, boring, predictable and you think this movie is TIMELESS???? You got serious issues.

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For starters I hate James Cameron movies.

So...it's not predictable? Maybe not to you but I knew what was coming every step of the way. This is a boring, dated and pointless movie.

I'll stick with Bergman films.

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It was about as boring and pointless as any movie ever made.

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I'm willing to bet that there isn't much talk about STDs between HS or college partners today. If there was (or if it was honest), there wouldn't have been the need for the development of Gardisil, and STDs would not be at the epidemic they are right now among teens and young adults.

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Both of these guys are jerks especially Nicholson. That is the whole point of the film and it offers insight into their narcissism. It is done in an entertaining, sophisticated and intellectual way that is today completely lacking in male gross out comedies like 'Hangover' etc. This ranks as one of Nichols and Nicholson best and it shows the progression or devolution of Sandy and especially Jonathan over a 25 year life span. It is a great film a real one of a kind and entirely worth it.

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Jack Nicholson played the part of the blatant chauvinist very well (Sandy was too much of a milksop to register), but the film hits us over the head again and the again with the point that "men use women," no more so than at the end when the shocked look of the blank-eyed hippie girl's face is supposed to be some kind of moral indictment. Were we supposed to see the women as innocent dupes taken in by these bad, objectifying men? More time could have been spent exploring why woman after woman fell for Jack, as sleazy as he was, rather than just lamenting about how awful Jonathan was.

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Oh, I very much agree with this. It's frustrating to see women like sheep, so easily led to wolves like Nicholson. The films ending decisively falls to Nicholson relishing his predatory sensibilities, seemingly unphased by his isolation. The question falls to the women- if he's hurt them, how will they grow better?

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It's frustrating to see women like sheep, so easily led to wolves like Nicholson.


So, in other words, you don't want to see a movie set in reality?

Don't try to cash in love, that check will always bounce.

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Actually I thought the ending showed the Nicholson character in a complete sexual and personal dead-end. The only way he can get sexual satisfaction is to pay a woman to tell him how great he is. He's entirely pathetic. If that's not an ending designed to turn men off those attitudes to women I don't know what would be.

Regarding the thread, roegcamel was a bit rude to the OP I thought but I agree the OP is flat out wrong about the film. This is essentially a satirical movie, we're not really supposed to like the characters but to see their flaws and perhaps recognise those flaws in ourselves also. And if the relationship between men and women in and out of bed isn't a suitable subject for a film, what is?

I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.

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What over-the-top nudity? There was hardly any of that stuff at all.

It is, however, a rather dull and dramatically weak movie sort meandering its way towards the end with lots of "sophisticated" topical dialogue going on that was probably supposed to be "cutting edge" at the time or whatever. I can´t really think of a single truly memorable, effective scene in the whole movie and the "insight" it strives to give, doesn´t look or sound particularly compelling. Not very successful as a character study; Nicholson and Garfunkel always remain kinda like ciphers (the former´s performance isn´t nearly as great as in Five Easy Pieces, The Last Detail or The Passenger). Mike Nichols always was a mediocre director who started off by striking oil with his debut Who´s Afraid Of Virginia Woolf, the success of which had plenty more to do with Albee and Burton and Taylor than him. The Graduate is somewhat overrated as well.



"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

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The film is "realistic" in the sense that it shows several unlikable characters tearing each other apart. And in that sense, it's a lot like Closer.

I am reminded of what van Gogh thought of realism. (Bear with a minute, I'm not trying to be pretentious.) When asked if he could do anything realistic like other artists were doing, he did a painting in a realistic style of a pig's head.

His point? Reality is ugly. Art should exalt its subjects.

I see this film and think the writer must have a terrible view of human nature. The characters are all remarkably shallow and self-absorbed. And in that sense it's just like Closer. People are friendly and good only when they want something, and then they get bored with that.

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Have seen this film 3 or 4 times over a 10+ years. I like it more each time I see it. First time, I found it a predictable presentation of the 1960s sexual revolution & didn't care for it.

Saw it again a few days ago & realized what a really good film it is. Realized that the sex issue is almost secondary & is used as a vehicle to examine the character flaws & qualities of the 2 main characters, one of whom could be described as a narcissist & the other as a passive, everyman.

Viewing the film this time, I realized it is a character study of 2 people & their long term so called "friendship". At the end, I realized that Nicholson still treated Garfunkel like crap & I wondered why Garfunkel still considered Nicholson a “friend”. We watch these 2 as they mature and react to changes in society, with the spot light on the 1960's sexual revolution.

But, what struck me most was that neither of the characters really changed from the time they were in college. They had the same relationship they had in college: they were the same people, stagnantly stuck, with little or no personal growth, nor gain of insight.

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I lasted for about 30 mins. before giving up on it getting any more interesting. I was not offended by any explicit sexuality or exposure. I was offended by, well, rather pointless drivel. Sorry, Nichols/Nicholson/Garfunkel.
Ok, so they (the characters) are chauvinists. Ok, so people behave badly. Drawn-out dialogue between shallow people isn't really that engrossing to me. And for comparisons to Closer -- well, I couldn't stand that either! Haha. Lame peoply behaving lamely. Next.
(And, while I'm at it -- I also don't understand why, when a poster on a board expresses that they don't like a film/actor/director, some people respond w/, "If you don't like it, don't watch it!" Huh? Why shouldn't criticisms be expressed and discussed? I'd rather not have IMDB be just some kind of love-fest. That would be almost as boring as Carnal Knowledge!)

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The movie was not about "just screwing ladies and explicitly talking about it." It is a movie with themes and characters that are timeless - I have to disagree with a few posters who say it is completely dated.

I have known plenty of people who act like Nicholson and Garfunkel in the film. The two main characters play off each other very well - they reinforce each other's weaknesses and self-destructive behavior, as they both also hurt various women.

However, I also disagree very much with the poster who claimed that the women in the movie are merely passive victims. They were most certainly not merely passive victims, but contributed to and encouraged the various relationships with the two men. Not all of them merely took punishment from the men - they also dished it out at times.

This movie is one of my favorites, in part because I recognize behavior in the various characters in people I've known, but also because it addresses themes that are important and seldom-addressed in movies. I think the actors do a good job with portraying characters that often engage in very unflattering behavior. That is not easy at all.

My real name is Jeff

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